<phoe>
(and to remove the usage of #\' reader macro)
<Bike>
(defmacro quote (x) (typecase x (symbol `(intern ,(symbol-name x) ,(symbol-package x))) (cons `(cons ',(car x) ',(cdr x))) (t x)), but then the compiler can't really use constant-ness
<Bike>
probably some corner cases it doesn't deal with very well, too
<aeth>
phoe: NIL vs. T doesn't really matter because either way you don't want to check, unless you want to interpet NIL as the type NIL, i.e. "nothing can satisfy this" which sounds pointless... but I think I default to T in my later stuff, like DEFINE-FUNCTION
<Bike>
with some load-time-value this might not even be that inefficient
<phoe>
aeth: (CHECK-TYPE FOO T) compiles to a no-op on a sufficiently non-dumb compiler
<aeth>
eh
<phoe>
because I interpret NIL as the empty type
<Bike>
moon-child: also, (quote (quote a)) evaluates to 'a because 'a is (quote a). the 'evaluates to' is important
<phoe>
I mean, if someone goes (defclass foo ((bar :type nil))) then I assume they know what they're doing
<Bike>
moon-child: this is the same as scheme. i think quote is special in scheme also
<aeth>
I guess you could somewhat salvage NIL as a type there by saying something of type NIL should remain unbound, although there's not much of a point to that, either.
<phoe>
unless there's union types in play and the effective slot definition turns out to have a type of something like (AND NUMBER STRING)
<Bike>
yeah, in r5rs it looks like a special operator, though scheme doesn't have that concept technically
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<phoe>
which would be 1) a corner case and 2) a dumb thing to do
<phoe>
but nonetheless, possible and technically allowable by the standard, I guess
<aeth>
I think moon-child is saying that ' should be the special form and (quote foo) should turn into 'foo, essentially reversing the way I think it works.
<Bike>
' is reader syntax. it doesn't exist in the lisp evaluation model because it's part of the reader.
<aeth>
right
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<aeth>
afaik, you can just walk through source and step through each step and actually see (quote foo) or (function foo) etc. I know for sure #'foo is just (function foo) but I don't think I've tried the former.
<Bike>
and of course (length (quote (quote a))) => 2, (car (quote (quote A))) => QUOTE, etc
<aeth>
more useful than having ' as some special thing
<Bike>
lisp implementations just print (quote a) as 'a
<phoe>
'''a evaluates into ''a, ''a evaluates into 'a, 'a evaluates into a, a evaluates into ;; Error: #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE A {100BEEF213}>
<Alfr__>
Can happen (likely accidentally) when, say a subclass specifies Y and the parent said X for a certain slot, irrc standard says that that slot may only hold (and X Y)-type objects.
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<Bike>
the type of an inherited slot is the conjuction of everything it inherits from, yeah
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<phoe>
Alfr__: it shouldn't happen accidentally
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<phoe>
it must be an AND type because of Liskov substitution principle
<phoe>
so in a very pathological case it might be a slot of type NIL
<phoe>
which means that it can't hold anything at all
<phoe>
Alfr__: I'm kinda satisfied, but that's actually meant to be a feature rather than a bug
<phoe>
e.g. when the programmer wants to have an even narrower set of possible values
<Bike>
warning when the type ends up as nil due to inheritance seems pretty reasonable to do
<phoe>
agreed
<Alfr__>
I just wanted to describe a case when NIL types actually arise.
<Alfr__>
phoe, and I didn't intend to imply that you should change that, sorry for the confusion.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<mangul>
Any Common Lisp IDE for Android?I couldn't find a good one. I need at least indentation and REPL.
<ebzzry>
Is there a way to determine of a special variable has been defined with DEFPARAMETER or DEFVAR?
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<beach>
ebzzry: Not really.
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<sm2n>
Hello
<beach>
Hello sm2n.
<sm2n>
how are you doing, beach?
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<beach>
Making slow but steady progress with SICL. You?
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<sm2n>
that is good, I have just been cleaning up digital gunk
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<sm2n>
Installed arch and found out that ccl is not in the regular repos...
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<sm2n>
out of curiosity, how complete is sicl wrt the ansi standard currently?
<sm2n>
is there a progress doc or something somewhere?
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<beach>
Very far from it. Furthermore, I still don't generate native code.
<sm2n>
I see
<ajithmk>
I have a function let's say (defun func (func1 func2) .....). On one occasion I have passed #'+ and #'- in place of func1 and func2. It worked. How can I pass a macro similarly? Like (func #'push #'pop). Sbcl is complaining that macro name push/pop are found as an argument to function.
<beach>
sm2n: I don't think there is any point in documenting the progress yet.
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<beach>
ajithmk: You can't. You can pass a macro function, but macros are not first-class objects.
<beach>
ajithmk: If it were possible, what would you do with it inside FUNC?
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<ajithmk>
Oh. Ok. The behavior I am after is this. If it is a number use add and subtract the given value . If it's a list push and pop a given value.
<sm2n>
wouldn't it be simpler to dispatch on the type directly?
<beach>
ajithmk: Common Lisp was designed so that a compiler can generate fast code. Therefore, macros are mostly meant to be expanded at compile time. If what you want were possible, it would be impossible to generate fast code. That's how some languages designed by non-experts become intrinsically slow.
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<maplambda>
how do i exit debugger
<maplambda>
in sbcl
<maplambda>
return to interpreter without (quit)
<beach>
ajithmk: That's another problem. Lists are not abstract data types in Common Lisp, so that would fail anyway.
<beach>
maplambda: Probably invoke the ABORT restart.
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<maplambda>
beach, I tried (abort) and :a:t:
<maplambda>
neither worked
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<beach>
maplambda: You would typically use SBCL through SLIME and then it would be obvious.
<beach>
maplambda: If you don't do that, you need to read the SBCL manual to figure out how to invoke the ABORT restart from the debugger.
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<maplambda>
ok cool thanks
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<maplambda>
if I learn lisp will i be able to learn node/javascript easier?
<beach>
Like 5.7 says TOPLEVEL is a debugger command.
<beach>
"Throw to top level"
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<beach>
maplambda: If you learn Common Lisp, it is unlikely that you would want to program in JavaScript later.
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<maplambda>
yea but i like money
<beach>
maplambda: If you use SBCL (or any other Common Lisp implementation) without SLIME or something similar, you are likely going to hate it.
<beach>
maplambda: Oh, then you should avoid learning Common Lisp, because you will never again be happy in your work, using another language.
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<ajithmk>
lol
<maplambda>
i hope it lives up to all the hype
<beach>
maplambda: You will end up like drmeister who wrote a Common Lisp implementation in C++ to avoid programming in C++, or like alandipert, who wrote a Common Lisp implementation in JavaScript to avoid programming in JavaScript.
<maplambda>
will knowing lisp help me with understanding assembly and C and other languages ?
<beach>
Oh, definitely. It will help you understand lots of stuff about programming and programming languages.
<maplambda>
ok cool
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<beach>
maplambda: But, more importantly, you will learn about programming techniques that you then wish you had at your disposal when you use other languages, like macros, generic functions, reader macros, compiler available at run-time, etc., etc.
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<maplambda>
are algorithms easier to write in lisp
<beach>
Easier than what language? Clearly easier than in any language that uses manual memory management, sure.
<maplambda>
i guess i mean intuitive or elegant
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<maplambda>
i never liked the way imperative languages implemented data structures
<maplambda>
liked linked lists
<maplambda>
ugly
<maplambda>
pointers
<maplambda>
ill never be a linked list/pointer kind of girl
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<sm2n>
those things are unrelated, common lisp is written in an imperative style quite often and it doesn't involve pointers directly usually
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<beach>
maplambda: I am sorry to bring you the bad news then. Common Lisp is not a functional programming language. It is a multi-paradigm language. It does not have explicit pointers like C, but data structures look pretty much the same otherwise.
<beach>
maplambda: And one of the central data structures in Common Lisp is a linked list.
<beach>
LISP used to mean "LISt Programming"
<beach>
maplambda: But, like I said, automatic memory management changes everything.
<maplambda>
hm
<beach>
maplambda: It allows your language to use what I call "universal reference semantics" which is a much simpler way of thinking about the semantics of your programs.
<maplambda>
ok 1 last question what about speed
<maplambda>
compared to say a "compiled language"
<sm2n>
cl is a compiled language
<maplambda>
sm2n, why am i using an interpreter then
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<sm2n>
good question, what are you using?
<beach>
maplambda: There is no such thing as a compiled or an interpreted language. It is a characteristic of the implementation. Most modern Common Lisp systems compile to native code.
<maplambda>
sm2n, sbcl
<sm2n>
sbcl generates native code
<beach>
maplambda: You are not using an interpreter.
<sm2n>
quite fast too
<sm2n>
you are confusing a repl with an interpreter
<maplambda>
so it compiles everything i type lol?
<maplambda>
in a repl
<sm2n>
they are mostly unrelated, people have managed to hack repls in places you would be surprised, like C
<sm2n>
yup
<beach>
maplambda: yes.
<maplambda>
actually that makes sense why would you want to compile the entire program at once given locality of reference
<maplambda>
never thought of that before
<beach>
maplambda: See, you already learned something by studying Common Lisp.
<maplambda>
yea im convinced
<maplambda>
damn
<beach>
Try (defun f (x) x) and then (disassemble #'f)
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<maplambda>
i also just realized
<maplambda>
"polymorphism" is just a side effect right?
<maplambda>
of math
<beach>
That doesn't ring true. What is it that you are trying to figure out?
<maplambda>
not sure yet
<maplambda>
are there no types?
<beach>
Sure, there are types.
<beach>
The Common Lisp type system is particularly sane and simple.
<beach>
A type is just a (possibly infinite) set of objects.
<beach>
By default, any Common Lisp variable can contain an object of any type.
<beach>
How is that for "poly"?
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<maplambda>
yea thats pretty sic
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<beach>
Oh, other things you will miss in other languages are exact rational arithmetic, and infinite precision integers. It means that you can be sure that (+ n 1) is bigger than n, unlike in C for instance.
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<maplambda>
can i do data intensive programming in lisp
<maplambda>
like is there a concept of data frame
<maplambda>
i can program easily
<maplambda>
i mostly do that for work
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<maplambda>
i guess a list of lists
<beach>
Common Lisp has multi-dimensional arrays.
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<beach>
maplambda: I suggest you try it out for a while. Install Emacs+SLIME, or go with Portacle (which is essentially Emacs+SLIME+SBCL), and get started.
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<beach>
If you have truly newbie questions, you can ask in #clschool.
<maplambda>
ok cool ty
<beach>
yaw
<aeth>
maplambda: there's no data frame that everyone uses as a de facto standard (or in the standard), but there's nothing that stops someone from writing a libarary. There's a cl-data-frame library according to https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
<aeth>
There might be others, but not with it in the library name
<tfb>
Is the CLHS search thingy at xach.com officially broken, or is it just me (and is there another one I can bookmark?)
<beach>
phoe: Sure.
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<beach>
phoe: I don't see any problems with it.
<phoe>
beach: I am asking because aeth once mentioned that someone on #lisp said that re-using :TYPE like that might invoke some sort of undefined behavior
<phoe>
it sounded weird to me though, which is why I wrote the above code to directly reuse the :TYPE initarg
<beach>
What does "re-using :TYPE" mean?
<beach>
Oh, yes, I see. Hold on...
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<beach>
In the method on direct-slot-definition-class, you mean?
<shangul>
How to get a clean REPL with SLIME other than slime-restart-inferior-lisp?
<phoe>
shangul: hit , in the REPL and then type restart-inferior-lisp
<ralt>
oh thank you
<beach>
phoe: Yes, that could be problematic if the base class defines :TYPE as an initarg. Let me study it again for a sec...
<shangul>
phoe, Thank you. any shortcut for this? so being shorter.
<ralt>
Do you get auto completion?
<phoe>
shangul: helm mode or any other autocompletion
<phoe>
I type ,rest<RET>
<ralt>
mfiano: thank you for the cacle suggestion, that looks great
<phoe>
beach: the base class *does* define :TYPE as an initarg, for sure
<shangul>
phoe, Thank you
<phoe>
the question is whether this causes any UB.
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<beach>
phoe: Give me a minute.
<phoe>
OK
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<beach>
Er, no, I still don't see a problem.
<beach>
What would be the reason for a problem?
<beach>
:INITARGs are processed by methods all the time.
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<phoe>
hmmmm
<phoe>
neither do I, truth be told
<phoe>
I just wanted to triple-check that
<phoe>
aeth: ^
<beach>
I guess we would have to ask aeth what the problem seems to be.
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<phoe>
from what I understood, he doesn't remember either
<beach>
I think you are safe then.
<phoe>
that's why I wanted to triple-check instead of double-checking and why I didn't mention the particular problem up front and only asked for review first
<beach>
Got it.
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<VincentVega>
Hi all! Workflow question: so I like put some test code in the end of the file (not actual tests) and when I load a package, I don't want that code to execute. Neither do I want to wrap it in some macro. I thought, an ideal solution would be have a call which makes the loader (?) skip the rest of the file. Is there something like that?
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<jackdaniel>
VincentVega: comment out the code
<jackdaniel>
#+(or)(progn ,@your-code)
<VincentVega>
jackdaniel: well, if there's not something like that, commenting is my next best option, yeah
<VincentVega>
what does this line of code do?
<jackdaniel>
#+something is a reader condition, #+(or) means "don't read next form"
<VincentVega>
I see, OK
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<jackdaniel>
having some trick /to not load the rest of the file/ would be a confusing irregularity
<jackdaniel>
casual reader (including future you) could get lost when reading that file to understand what's going on
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<VincentVega>
That could be the case, surely.
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<VincentVega>
Yeah, I will just go with commenting, I guess am making a bigger deal out of it than nesessary.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Block comment till EOF doesn't even impede copy-pasting
* jackdaniel
endorses this decision
<MichaelRaskin>
(closed in the end, of course)
<VincentVega>
Wait, there are block comments in lisp?
<jackdaniel>
I saw such reader macro in some dwim utility
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<Demosthenex>
so, why isn't iolib including libfixposix in the quicklisp distribution?
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<phoe>
that's... a good question I guess?
<Demosthenex>
yeah, this unlabeled error of "cannot find lfp.h" has haunted me for days
<Demosthenex>
upgraded sbcl, wiped and updated quicklisp, can't find it anywhere and with a tiny name it's poor search criteria
<Demosthenex>
finally got a hit and found it's an iolib dependency, that isn't in gentoo's package manager
<Demosthenex>
but... it's a tiny library, i would have thought it made more sense to just ship it
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<dlowe>
libfixposix
<dlowe>
oops, sorry
<dlowe>
That presumes a C compiler with which to build it.
<dlowe>
I'm surprised it's not in gentoo, though - it's in debian.
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<phoe>
AFAIK debian ships some ancient version though
<dlowe>
it's the debian way :)
<dlowe>
one useful improvement to iolib would be to explicitly check for libfixposix when building and produce a nice error before it even gets started
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<Demosthenex>
i think that's the thing. i've dug for days trying to find why nyxt won't build. it threw a grovel error, and i ended up having to upgrade sbcl and other things only to return to the same error message
<Demosthenex>
lfp.h is such a small search term, it was hard to find :P
<Demosthenex>
now i'm trying to use a local install and hack quicklisp to honor and pass on my CFLAGs to allow the include
<Demosthenex>
alot of work when an error string would have really helped. ;]
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<puchacz>
hi, any sly users here? there is no autocomplete in lisp source files by default, I added the same autocomplete that is used in mrepl buffers, but it does not work 100% well, it leaves greenish background in completions.
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<dra>
Hello!
<phoe>
heyyyy
<beach>
Hello dra.
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<phoe>
puchacz: the bugtracker for sly might be a good answer; the maintainer is very active there
<puchacz>
phoe, thanks, I will have a look
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<AeroNotix>
is there a good source online for original high quality reproductions of Lisp advertisements/manual covers?
<AeroNotix>
e.g. LMI/Symbolics etc
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<phoe>
beach: I remember you having a means of serializing Lisp objects to strings by means of printing them like [FOO:BAR :BAZ (1 2 3) :QUUX [FOO:FRED ...]] - is this code available anywhere?
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<pve>
that looks pretty clever, are :baz and :quux initargs?
<pve>
make-instance gets clunky pretty fast if you have lots of classes
<pve>
oh wait, you didn't mean that that goes in the code, just when serializing?
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<phoe>
just when serializing, I guess
<phoe>
but I also guess that nothing prevents you from using this notation in code, since this is just reader syntax
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<pve>
yep, that's intriguing to me.. although I'm quite used to seeing [ Foo new :baz .. ] in my code at this point, so that might have something to do with it :)
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<markasoftware>
(consify (make-instance 'standard-object)) will return (:make-instance standard-object) for example, then (unconsify) the result will make it whole again
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<phoe>
oooh
<markasoftware>
so you can print and read it
<phoe>
yes, I see
<markasoftware>
and it looks at the slots and adds initargs as necessary, eg, (defclass blop () ((bleep :initarg :bleep)) (consify (make-instance 'blop :bleep 5)) ==> (:make-instance blop :bleep 5)
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<maplambda>
anyone know why this program is giving me unbound variable errors
<maplambda>
im writing it in protacle in a buffer and doing ctrl c ctrl c to send it to repl then it just enters debugger and says 'hello-you' is unbound
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<cgay>
It says that when you hit C-c C-c on the defun? or ...?
<phoe>
do you have any text selected when you do C-c C-c?
<maplambda>
yea I select the entire program
<maplambda>
in the top buffer
<phoe>
what happens if you C-c C-k instead to compile-and-load the whole file?
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<phoe>
(save it somewhere first, for instance in /tmp/foo.lisp)
<maplambda>
hm it says "wrote /home/anon/Downloads/portacle/helloworld.fasl
<maplambda>
; compilation finished in 0:00:00.006"
<maplambda>
but no output
<maplambda>
oh wait
<maplambda>
ok maybe im just noob that worked I just had to call my function lol
<maplambda>
why do I need to load the entire file too? as opposed to just compiling and sending to repl?
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<phoe>
oh, wait a second..
<phoe>
how are you calling your function?
<phoe>
C-c C-c should also work just fine as long as your point is inside the form that you want to compile-and-load
<maplambda>
phoe, well I have a sbcl /slime buffer at the bottom. after I compile/load in the top buffer I write (hello-you "My name")
<phoe>
then that should work fine
<phoe>
no idea about the C-c C-c issue
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<mseddon>
maplambda: did you forget maybe to invoke your function after loading it?
<maplambda>
i think it works now ... i dont know what I was doing before. im also getting used to emacs
<mseddon>
maplambda: ah, yes. emacs. it's a lot to take on at once, but hang in there. You'll figure it out quicker than you expect.
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<mseddon>
maplambda: there is also an #emacs channel.
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<cgay>
I'm trying to debug a rather complicated macro. I expanded it, copied the expansion to a new function and compiled it in SLIME with C-c C-c but got many warnings for gensym'd uninterned symbols being undefined...
<cgay>
I don't quite understand what's going on. If the uninterned symbols work in normal macro expansion shouldn't they work when I copy the expansion elsewhere?
<phoe>
nope
<phoe>
this is because #: creates a new symbol on each read
<cgay>
d'oh. of course. thank you.
<phoe>
so (eq '#:foo '#:foo) ;=> NIL
<phoe>
bind *PRINT-GENSYM*, expand the macro, and copy that
<phoe>
the #: will disappear and the copypasted text should work.
<mseddon>
phoe: that is sneaky as hell. love it.
<phoe>
mseddon: what do you mean?
<mseddon>
it's actually a problem I've never had to solve, and that's extremely elegant.
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<cgay>
and it works during macro-expansion because no READ
<mseddon>
exactly.
<phoe>
oh
<phoe>
well
<phoe>
the mere existence of *PRINT-GENSYM* means that someone encountered it before
<mseddon>
yup. And what I love about lisp, despite how weird and crufty it appears on the outside, is when you get stuck, there's a way out.
<ralt>
omg
<cgay>
In this particular case we really don't need to gensym variables since there's no &body, so maybe this is my "opportunity" to fix that.
<ralt>
phoe: I think it's you who shared the comma tip in slime, thank you so much
<ralt>
it's amazing everything I'm finding in there
<cgay>
Was that an intentional analogy with comma in macros splicing something into a context? :)
<ralt>
nope, just a reference to something that happened earlier today in this channel
<mseddon>
cgay: It was probably more due to lack of interesting free keyboard symbols.
<ralt>
if you type , in slime, you get all sorts of options
<cgay>
ralt: right, I mean the choice of comma as the escape character
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<phoe>
more like the fact that a free comma is invalid Lisp anyway
<phoe>
especially when it begins a form
<phoe>
so it was repurposed for something that actually makes sense
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<markasoftware>
huh, Serapeum has a utility for making all instances of a metaclass inherit from a certain class, which was discussed here a couple days ago.
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<phoe>
oh? how is it named?
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<markasoftware>
it's described at the bottom of the github readme. It is used by making a metaclass that is a subclass of serapeum:topmost-object-class and passing the option (:topmost-class 'my-superclass) to defclass
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<markasoftware>
(the defclass for your metaclass, that is)
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<phoe>
oooh
<phoe>
nice! I can dig that
<phoe>
this solves a slightly different problem, however; it does not recursively modify other classes' CPLs to include that class
<phoe>
s/recursively/retroactively/
<phoe>
it's more like a method to always include a certain class in the CPL of classes that are defined *afterwards*
<ralt>
TIL serapeum
<ralt>
I dig its ecase-of
<markasoftware>
phoe: when would it be necessary to modify existing classes? Changing the metaclass definition after classes with that metaclass already have been defined?
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<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
and this is basically a no-no if you don't own these classes.
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