<jasom>
What happens when you use (setf find-class) is an exercise left to the reader
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<jasom>
The main takeaway is that the following does not necessarily hold (eq X (class-name (find-class X)))
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<Bike>
the clhs uses "proper name" to mean a class's name if the environment has that class under that name as well
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<buoy49>
mornin'
<beach>
buoy49: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<contrapunctus>
Oh buoy
<contrapunctus>
SCNR
<buoy49>
beach: for sure, I am new here
<buoy49>
contrapunctus: ha! bring on the dad jokes
<u0_a156>
well, introduce yourself then
<buoy49>
u0_a156: sure thing
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<beach>
buoy49: Great, what brings you to #lisp?
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<buoy49>
I am programmer based out of Texas. Mostly worked with Java and Ruby since I started 4 years ago. Have dabbled with a few other langs, but have been using lisp lately. I am looking for a new experience and want to have "more fun" programming. Lisp has been proving to be just that.
<beach>
Sounds good. Welcome to #lisp.
<u0_a156>
:)
<beach>
I spent a year in Texas, at the University of Texas, Austin, learning about automatic memory management from Paul Wilson, the world expert at the time.
<buoy49>
beach: wow, very good. I am in ATX, actually. I am originally from NY, but I came down here and met my wife second day and the rest is history (2 daughters, mortgage, etc.)
<beach>
Me? Yes, I have heard something about that. Crazy stuff.
<aeth>
beach: But there's more! There's even something called CLOSOS that you are also planning!
<beach>
buoy49: What kind of tools and what kind of learning material are you using?
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<u0_a156>
i actually don't even understand lisp runtine systens... how the debugger works etc.
<aeth>
u0_a156: someone here wrote a book on the condition system
<u0_a156>
cool! link please?
<aeth>
The rest of the runtime is pretty simple. REPL, from the naive (loop (print (eval (read)))) implementation of one
<White_Flame>
it all comes down at some point to mapping the hardware to lisp, then once it's in lisp, bob's your uncle. That interface with the machine is going to be the most fiddly part
<aeth>
(And GC, of course, which is conceptually simple but practically difficult)
<buoy49>
beach: emacs w/ sly & just assorted docs (most CL Cookbook & CL Quick Reference). I am definitely interested in something more formally introductory if you have recs
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<beach>
buoy49: Tools look good. Most people here recommend PCL for people who already know some programming.
<beach>
minion: Please tell buoy49 about PCL.
<minion>
buoy49: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<u0_a156>
Thank you, the open samples may take awhile to digest.
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<aeth>
I guess Apress has built up a series of Lisp books now
<aeth>
At least 3.
<buoy49>
beach: thank you. ah, yes. the gigamonkeys book... is actually PCL. This pops up quite a bit on search for different syntax related searches. I did not realize what it was!
<buoy49>
I'll make sure to actually go through it in order
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<miyuki1534>
When I was starting with Lisp, I use Paul Graham's Anci Common Lisp. You may want to read that as well since I think it moves at a faster pace
<beach>
miyuki1534: Except that Paul Graham does not like or use CLOS.
<beach>
miyuki1534: And his style is often not very conventional.
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<johnjay>
question about quicklisp. when I do ql:quickload "something", does that actually install the something?
<johnjay>
or is that just for the current session?
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<White_Flame>
nothing autoloads into a freshly started image, except for the quicklisp client itself if you did the default installation
<White_Flame>
you always need to quickload the various systems when you start the image
<beach>
johnjay: And it puts the source code in ~/quicklisp/...
<White_Flame>
which should be done via dependencies in your .asd files
<johnjay>
oh i see it, in ./dists/quicklisp/software
<johnjay>
White_Flame: makes sense i see it now
<johnjay>
i was about to download aserve then i realized wait it's probably in quicklisp
<White_Flame>
yep, it's good to check ql first, but the version in the dist also might be outdated
<White_Flame>
if you want the latest changes of some system
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<ldb>
good afternoon
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<beach>
Hello ldb.
<johnjay>
White_Flame: is the general idea to just (load "/path/to/file.cl") for the downloaded thing?
<ldb>
johnjay: usually they have an ASDF definition, in ".asd" file
<ldb>
in that case, (load "path/to/foo.asd") and do (asdf:load-system SYSTEM-NAME)
<ldb>
and you can find SYSTEM-NAME in the asd file
<johnjay>
ok, makes sense
<ldb>
ASDF is also the tool Quicklisp used to perform loading
<White_Flame>
or, put a symlink to your project directory from inside ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, and then you can just quickload your project by name without anything else
<White_Flame>
you really shouldn't have to use LOAD for anything.
<White_Flame>
quickload projects, and C-c C-k buffers from SLIME
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<phoe>
If a function call equivalent to (find 1 '(1 2 3 4 5) :test #'eql :test-not #'eql) signals an error due to invalid keyword combination, what kind of error should it be? PROGRAM-ERROR?
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<heisig>
CLHS 17.2.1 "The consequences are unspecified if both a :test and a :test-not argument are supplied in the same call to F."
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<heisig>
Any error is probably fine.
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<heisig>
SICL signals a condition that is a direct subclass of ERROR.
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<phoe>
FYI: useless YouTube link, no point in clicking.
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<ebrasca>
Why people spam?
<jackdaniel>
because they are generous enough to share content of course! :_)
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<Xach>
faicanbuild
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<Xach>
oops
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon
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<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
<Josh_2>
How's your work going beach ?
<beach>
Slow but steady progress, thanks. How about yours?
<Josh_2>
It's been sweltering here in England, so I've not been doing much due to the heat
<beach>
I see, yes.
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<gendl>
morning beach. I just got back from the beach.
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<beach>
Good for you.
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<Josh_2>
Is the mailman service working for common-lisp.net? I have subbed to a mailing list but not received my confirmation
<phoe>
#common-lisp.net should answer that
<Josh_2>
I will ask
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<Xach>
the cl-sdl2-ttf issue vexes me.
<Xach>
the project isn't dead-dead but the PR to fix the UB is a few weeks old with no remarks. in cl-land that's not bad but i really would like a nice version in time for the end of august.
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<sveit>
I am confused how condition tests are supposed to work. Why is it that with custom condition types, '(nil) is always passed as the condition to the test? A simple failing example is: https://pastebin.com/QE87KacT
<phoe>
sveit: wait a second
<phoe>
'(nil)?
<sveit>
phoe: i was just copying the error i get from sbcl when I run the example in my pastebin (which just defines an custom condition and a conditional restart). More precisely, sbcl complains "no applicable method for generic function test-slot when called with arguments (NIL)"
<phoe>
sveit: yes, that is correct, C is allowed to be either NIL or a condition object.
<Bike>
that actually means that it was called with one argument, which is nil.
<phoe>
so, your function was---- exactly
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<Bike>
also, p hoe is right: test functions should be prepared to accept nil, and also any condition object.
<phoe>
if COMPUTE-RESTARTS is called without a condition object, then restart test functions will be called with NIL
<phoe>
same deal with FIND-RESTART
<phoe>
if they're called with a condition object - then that argument will be that condition boject
<phoe>
...s/boject/bojack/
<Bike>
you could do (and (typep c 'test-condition) (eql (test-slot c) 1)).
<sveit>
ah, thanks. didn't see that in the hyperspec. seems like a strange convention, isn't compute-restarts in the usual case called without a condition object?
<Bike>
the debugger might call compute-restarts without a condition, though.
<phoe>
sveit: depends
<phoe>
the debugger is allowed (and should) call COMPUTE-RESTARTS *with* a condition object, in particular, with the condition object that the debugger has been entered with
<phoe>
it's not really specified in the spec (as the debugger isn't really specified), but it's the only logical behavior
<sveit>
hmm. Doesn't seem to be the behaviour in my SBCL (that error I get was from interactively calling (test-function) in REPL)
<phoe>
users are also allowed to do the same, e.g. if they end up in the debugger REPL and want to resolve the situation manually via calling FIND-RESTART and INVOKE-RESTART and what else
<phoe>
what do you mean by "the behaviour"?
<sveit>
phoe: i mean that the debugger seems to be calling COMPUTE-RESTARTS *without* a condition object, since nil is being passed to the condition test
<sveit>
anyway thanks for your help phoe and Bike, that's much clearer
<phoe>
see the printouts - it is being called *twice*
<phoe>
once with the condition argument, the other time, without
<phoe>
you just didn't see the first case since it silently succeeded.
<phoe>
there's also the issue with asynchronous printing and intertwined lines, but eh, things are still visible
<phoe>
anyway, this is allowed, so a test function must be prepared to accept anything of type (OR NULL CONDITION).
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<sveit>
phoe: thanks for clearing that up. is there some "convention" that one should tend to return 't from the test if the condition type is null/not the type you are signaling?
<phoe>
sveit: there's no convention in there
<phoe>
this predicate answers the question "should this restart be visible?"
<phoe>
it only gets to use two sources of information to compute the answer: the condition object or lack thereof, and the dynamic environment in which it runs
<phoe>
so the answer literally depends on what the restart is supposed to do
<phoe>
and whether it should be visible in all cases (when the argument is NIL) or only if specific conditions are signaled
<phoe>
and even then, if these conditions have some proper internal state - you can check that by querying the slots of the condition object
<phoe>
so, basically - that's a rather generic framework for restart visibility, and usually the answer will be trivial
<phoe>
most of the time, simple
<phoe>
rarely, complicated
<phoe>
for an example, you don't want to try and offer to save a crash dump file to the default disk drive if you just got a NO-SPACE-LEFT-ON-DEVICE error mentioning that particular disk drive
<sveit>
phoe: thanks for the explanation, i think i actually understand the convention now.
<phoe>
or, you don't want to try and resend data on a network socket if that network socket just git a CONNECTION-RESET
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<phoe>
s/git/got/
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<phoe>
that's the general idea - the test function should answer the question of "is the restart applicable in this particular context?"
<phoe>
and that's one bold and broad question
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