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<DocScrutinizer05> oops
<Oksana> :?
<DocScrutinizer05> ah, I'm discussing programming of silego chip with Werner, and this was the wrong channel to post this link, also werber is *offline* .-/
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, if you're interested: and the above dir contains intersting details how they actually program that chip. particularly the pic above and are relevant
<DocScrutinizer05> we gonna use that chip in simmux, to control the SIM power regulators of both trays
<DocScrutinizer05> it's sort of non-trivial since modem, CPU and NFC all 3 can want either one of the SIM powered up, at 2 different voltages
<DocScrutinizer05> funny how they send the NVM data twice on pin18, clock pin20, while in between the chip seems to send a clock calibration signal on pin14 (
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe the first is not real program but actually something special the chip uses to do the clock-calibration thing
<DocScrutinizer05> though by mere optics both data bursts look pretty similar - as far as it gets with optically comparing a 1024bit waveform to another
<Oksana> Maybe, change NVM data, and see how waveforms change?
<DocScrutinizer05> pin17 has some instruction on what the chip shall do next, it seems:
<DocScrutinizer05> Oksana: obviously, yes :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> the GUI offers bit-by-bit inspection of the NVM data, so I just need to check
<DocScrutinizer05> alas those codes on pin17 are nowhere to be found in datasheet
<DocScrutinizer05> the 1024 bit NVM data are more or less described and explained in datasheet though
<DocScrutinizer05> we asked for the programming specs but they were not enthusiastic about disclosing them, like "we offer the eval board and the greenpak designer software. And the programming is a complex process you don't want to deal with yourselves anyway"
<DocScrutinizer05> seems they also calibrate the internal oscillator to have proper timing on all their delays etc. That's what I guess the clock signal on pin14 is for
<DocScrutinizer05> then they send NVM data again, just with adjusted clock generator tuning data
<DocScrutinizer05> makes sense?
<Oksana> A tad, yes
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway nice handy little chips
<DocScrutinizer05> emphasis on *little* :-)
<edwin> can that nvm data be copied to other chips directly, or you need to calibrate/program each one individually?
<DocScrutinizer05> err, I can program single chips in eval board, or send the 'program' to Silego and buy pre-programmed chips
<edwin> ah, was wondering how that programming scales to hundreds of devices :)
<Oksana> Latter is faster, especially since you will buy large quantities of them later anyway?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, we will buy a 500 of them, or more
<edwin> can the pre-programmed chips still be updated in case something goes wrong and you need to update it?
<DocScrutinizer05> no, OTP
<Oksana> De-soldered and replaced?
<DocScrutinizer05> but you can upload a temporary patch to the RAM of a already programmed chip ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> *IF* you know how to do that in-circuit. Which is exactly why I'm doing this little investigation
<Oksana> Temporary patch is good for testing, I guess? Of course, temporary solutions become permanent when permanent solution is too troublesome to do.
<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: generally in EE when "something goes wrong" you're doomed. A little often neglected detail that distinguishes hw development from sw development
<Oksana> Like, if power is exceeded, traces burn, and new board is needed?
<Defiant> Like when having a EMC problem?
<Defiant> EMI
<DocScrutinizer05> like when you did an oopsie, it's not 2let's write and push a patch", it's "let's think if we can rework a NNNN devices manually or we need (and can afford) to dump a huge pile of junk hardware and build everything anew"
<enyc> ooo fun =)
<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: are you discovering mor and morer liktle gotchas nad optimizations needed? ;-)
* enyc thinking... this is one o those projects that will bbe released when itrl' "right" sort of thing =)
<DocScrutinizer05> been there, done that, when others did such oopsie:
<DocScrutinizer05> enyc: no, why?
<DocScrutinizer05> we just try to minimize number of board spins by thorough QA before we build a prototype
<edwin> my DECT phone has "buzz", turns out the batteries leaked all over the place inside it. Never had batteries in a smartphone leak so hopefully thats not a concern for neo900 :)
<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: nodsnods =) very important not badging things, make sure everything done reasonably and works together!! =)
<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: hrrm... well its' not clear to some outsiders / potential investors what the roadmap to completion is =)
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<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: what choices till to make, what qa works, etc... but thens i guess the nature of developement is you don't know everything needed !!
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, that's basically right. We have a coarse roadmap which e.g. is explained in
<DocScrutinizer05> (DECT) I suppose those were NiMH or similar batteries, not a LiIon cell?
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 will use Nokia BL-5J battery which is unheard of to ever have leaked
<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: i wonder what the potential options are to have a ''big'' lithium battery on the back, not just 'wider' but osmething using much more space (excepting not covering the camera ;p)
<DocScrutinizer05> instead of the LiMg button backup battery cell used in N900 which is known to always break after 12 months and often even leak, we're using a polyacene capacitor "supercap" cell which afaik cannot leak and is supposed to survive a few years longer than Nokia's solution
<enyc> =)
<enyc> do supercaps 'tend to fail at all???
<DocScrutinizer05> (huge battery) google 'mugen'
<enyc> i'm used to non-electrolytic caps lasting 'forever'
<DocScrutinizer05> (fail) never heard of it
<edwin> DocScrutinizer05: yeah not LiIon
<enyc> soo.. neo900 (or n900??) will take 'anya' 3.7v li-ion battery ? is the interconnect to 3rd battery pin contact standardized?
<DocScrutinizer05> no, it's a 80kR to GND which is needed to detect there's a battery inserted, basically
<DocScrutinizer05> otherwise yes, every LiIon 3V7 will do
<enyc> i see =)
<enyc> i'm sure i asked about effective battery usage anyway!
<enyc> a lot down to software it would seem =)
<enyc> but new modem / gps should be rather less hungry AIUI
<enyc> n900's 3g modem eats power!
<DocScrutinizer05> in former times, the third contact was an NTC to test battery temperature. Seems that's not exactly the case anymore for BL-5J
<enyc> kk
<enyc> ''laptops'' seem to have more interconnect wires etc
<DocScrutinizer05> power consumption of Neo900 should be comparable to N900, maybe a tad less, maybe a tad more, depending on usage pattern. Except for LTE for which I don't have decent values yet
<enyc> nods!
<enyc> I spent ages to reccomend a USB LTE modem to a friend...
<enyc> collected lists of supported in various gadgets...
<enyc> then found what was easy to get
<DocScrutinizer05> and yes, UMTS data is power greedy since it keeps TX on for several seconds after every byte you transfer
<enyc> then ... discovered that some helpful german tested these =)
<enyc> so settled on a ZTE MF823 =) as its' well supported in cheapo-routers, works in all OSes (usb-ethernet if), works with mikrotik routerboard, almost certainly will work with openwrt =)
<enyc> but what a mess that was to sort out!
<enyc> I can understand the trouble you have will all the littel parts...!
<enyc> I do wonder how much n900 display backlight eats power comparatively-speaknig and if there are good ways to offer better 'dimming' control =)
<DocScrutinizer05> and there's a convenient gadget to control backlight brightness with a single click: "simple brightness applet" or somesuch. couldn't do without anymore, a must for N900
<DocScrutinizer05> noteworthy: brightness control of N900 does not adjust according to ALS when set on level5
<DocScrutinizer05> IOW "5" means "max brightness, unconditionally"
<enyc> aha!
<DocScrutinizer05> thus >>Backlight on max +150 mA, +40mA on 4 of 5 steps in simple brightness applet & low ambient (/sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/brightness = 63)<<
<enyc> same backlight controller in neo900??
<enyc> is that on the display sub-board or main board I wonder
<DocScrutinizer05> err, the backlight controller is irrelevant
<enyc> kk yes down to setting it in software =)
<DocScrutinizer05> it's a PWM chip
<enyc> but i ean, will the safteware driving it need to be rejiggled, new linux driver or whatever
<enyc> indeed!
<DocScrutinizer05> which is pretty weirdly controlled both by LCD controller and by CPU directly
<DocScrutinizer05> backlight brightness setting is a command to LCD controller
<enyc> good to keep the pwm frequency not too low... =) causes some peopl ehadaches/trouble
<enyc> it seems some things have horribly low freqs getting closer to 100hz but better gadgets use 200 500 or more ....
<enyc> affects saccades and reading and allsorts!
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, I know
<enyc> ooooo have you found any interesting research on this?
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, see above. LCD controller doing that
<enyc> kk
<enyc> I noticed, tridonic 'professional' LED dimmable drivers, take the approach of lovering the current down to a certain dimming level, then using 500hz pwm below that to get down to nothing...
<DocScrutinizer05> I think N900 AKMblabla LCD controller does closer to 500Hz iirc
<enyc> kk
<enyc> keep up the good work =) want to see this project complete =)
* DocScrutinizer05 too
<DocScrutinizer05> I need a looong holiday after that
<enyc> =)
<enyc> any idea of timescale hehe
<DocScrutinizer05> no, I'm afraid I will not be able to take any holiday in 2016 either, not matter if we roll out in Q1 or not
<enyc> howso?
<enyc> may it help to take time out for a few weekssanyway then come back to?
<DocScrutinizer05> prolyl after rollout I have to collect the pieces of my own life and try to recover from all this
<enyc> yes, important to make time for that!
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm working on a too high stress level since >2 years now
<enyc> not making time to sort yourself out causes breakage anyway in my expreience
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<DocScrutinizer05> alas already beyond that point
<enyc> hrrm
<enyc> so, whats' the best recoveryi plan now?
<enyc> I can only suggest mbeing vey meticulous to list carefually everything needed to complete and avoid feauturitis!
<enyc> and delberately asking for help fromthose also involved, they can hove soe things to work on while you have a defined break 2 weeks out or so.... ??
<DocScrutinizer05> feature freeze been a 9 moths ago
<enyc> you spoke of help combing back (dos1??)when not busy orn Pyra ??
<DocScrutinizer05> that's Nik, our "hardware house"
<enyc> right ok
<enyc> whens' that ?
<DocScrutinizer05> afk
<DocScrutinizer05> since 4 weeks or so, we already are working on finalizing proto_v2 again
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<enyc> =)
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<enyc> DocScrutinizer05: good luck =) -- when are you getting Nik back into help?
<DocScrutinizer05> since 4 weeks or so, we already are working on finalizing proto_v2 again
<enyc> ooooh sorry didn't realise that part was nik specifically
<enyc> right ok
<enyc> can you take some time_out while proto_v2 being made/delivired ?
<DocScrutinizer05> no
<DocScrutinizer05> afk, cya in a few hours
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<pigeons> DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the work you and the rest put into this
<pigeons> same to everyone else
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<Oksana> (feature freeze been a 9 moths ago) So how is it going? Will the keyboard backlight be RGB? Will the touchscreen be capable of distinguishing finger from stylus (or not tested yet?) ? Will there be a sensor for stylus inside or taken out?
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<DocScrutinizer05> rgb: we will see. finger/stylus: already implemented in N900 microB, sensor: we will see