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<Oksana>
By the way, when the new domesheet will be good (with uniform distribution of light), will you be able to order a lot of them? As in, a new "full" housing for N900 lacks not only LCD-screen and touch-digitizer and flex-ribbon and slider-mechanism, but domesheet, too (and original domesheets are quite difficult to obtain)
<Oksana>
You could add it as another item to purchase in your shop, since there will be people who want a new domesheet for N900 - and purchasing new ones in bulk is hopefully easier than finding Nokia-original one somewhere
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<Oksana>
Ah, okay, domesheet is usually stuck together with motherboard, so unless it was somehow damaged, there is no need for anybody to get a domesheet just to change the housing?
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly note >>With crowdfunding, the expectation is that customers are putting money in a campaign and they face a risk of not getting what they expect. Crowdfunding is similar to an investment. There is hope it will be successful, but there is no guarantee of a product or service. *** Our point of view is that campaign owners are still responsible for making that clear to consumers, so they are fully informed before putting money
<DocScrutinizer05>
into a crowdfunding campaign.***<<
<bencoh>
well ... are you sure you'll be able to deliver?
<saper>
"But, when a seller chooses to presell merchandise independently of these platforms, PayPal takes the steps below to help protect its customers as well as itself. "
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 always been planned as a crowdfunding project (as opposed to pre-sales, in that PayPal 'guideline')
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: When I say "Yes" then I do pre-sales
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: actually I'm pretty sure but still this project holds all the risks of a plain crowdfunding
<DocScrutinizer05>
saper: no, I think this is about preselling, which is something we don't do since we do crowdfunding. According to PP you can either do one or the other, but your project can not be both at same time
<saper>
I think they are saying "if you are not on indiegogo, go away"
<saper>
you say "Support the project and secure one device for you now!
<saper>
I read the TOS, but I clicked through the home page as a "casual customer"
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>The DOWN PAYMENT is required for sourcing risk components (hard to source chips, etc.), for purchasing case parts, and for related expenses.<<
<saper>
I think the only objection you can raise with Paypal is that it is cannot a binding sales contract, since the price is not yet known and has not been agreed.
<DocScrutinizer05>
(casual customer) http://neo900.org/#main >>This is a <a href=https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_cms=3&controller=cms&id_lang=1&content_only=1> crowdfunded </a> project and the device is currently in development.<<
<saper>
you don't have to convince me, I just tell you what it is to me
<DocScrutinizer05>
saper: many thanks for this view from an unbiased perspective. I need to think about how we can fix this problem (if at all)
<saper>
I think that Paypal unstated policy is the following: go via indiegogo
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's pretty obvious
<saper>
also I think the site should be redesigned to the donation site where you can merely indicate if you'd like to have a full device, a board or nothing at all
<saper>
but I don't think it works with Paypal
<DocScrutinizer05>
please elaborate
<saper>
the phrases "secure a device", "shopping cart", "invoice" are used, which implies some kind of "sales"
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we sell down payments, which give you a 'voucher' that entitles you to get a device later on
<saper>
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/secure#Verb poing 2: "To secure - To put beyond hazard of losing or of not receiving; to make certain; to assure; frequently with against or from, or formerly with of. "
<saper>
you can sell a thing; if you "sell" vouchers you are in the financial instruments business (obligations and other debt instruments)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, selling vouchers is a legal and common practice here in Germany. You can use them for gift to your grandmother, which is the most common usage
<saper>
even if you say you are selling gift vouchers, they probably need to redeemable with a real something.
<DocScrutinizer05>
they are, unless we go bankrupt
<saper>
I happen to buy one two days ago :)
<saper>
that's the problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's the problem?
<saper>
it's not backed by anything real right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the very nature of crowdfunding, which we do
<saper>
If you go to Douglas in Germany and buy a voucher, I can in the very same moment buy something for it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
not when you buy a voucher for e.g. a holiday that will happen next summer
<saper>
crowdfunding is like investing, everybody understands there is a risk
<saper>
but that is a valid contract with delayed delivery, and Paypal just told you "don't sell more than 20 days in advance with us this way".
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly the highest risk is from bullshit like PayPal right now
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<DocScrutinizer05>
we sold vouchers which got delivered the very moment the payment arrives at us
<saper>
so even if (1) final price would be known and binding (2) you've had legal refund policy (you get XX back if we don't deliver) (3) had a delivery date (confirmed) in December 2017 - even then Paypal wouldn't want to collect money for the project, probably.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the voucher is for an investment into a crowdfunding project, it serves as pledge for a device
<saper>
that's just a workaround.
<saper>
paypal tells you : not with us
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see where they do
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<saper>
did you consider indiegogo or something like that as an alternative?
<saper>
(I have no experience with igg or gofundme or whatever)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway this is with lawyer now, and let's hope you're wrong since otherwise the project is probably dead
<saper>
I don't think you'll get the money from them, frankly.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we did consider that and decided that those are crappy alternatives that take money for nothing, and when we started the project there wasn't even a way for European conmpanies to start a kickstarter/indigogo fundraiser
<DocScrutinizer05>
((I don't think you'll get the money)) then let's hope at least *you* get the money, since what *I* expect is PayPal keeping the money for 3 years to get interest from it
<saper>
I haven't invested anything in this business
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't think PayPal may "protect customers" against their own explicit intention
<saper>
is it possible to refund orders from the money being held as a reserve?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when our customers consider this a crowdfunding project and intended to transfer money to us to get *used* for materials purchasing, it's not PayPal's call to redefine this as pre-sales and freeze the money "to protect customers"
<saper>
A Merchant may cancel any unredeemed Gift Certificate at any time provided Merchant refunds the full value of the Gift Certificate to the purchaser in accordance with the Gift Certificate terms and conditions and notify the purchaser and, if different, the recipient of such cancellation. (...) Account closure: If Merchant’s PayPal account is closed, by Merchant or otherwise in accordance with the terms of
<saper>
the User Agreement, then the remaining balance of Gift Certificate less than 18 months old will be refunded to the purchaser. Merchant shall remain fully liable for Gift Certificate balances that are older than 18 months.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't give a shit about PayPal trying to override/redefine TOS of my business. They can't
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: well it's their (and our) customers they are hurting by doing so
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'll let all our customers know that it's PayPal hurting them, not us
<bencoh>
wouldnt be the first time
<saper>
indiegogo says they pay every 4 weeks in the "InDemand" options, and anyone can withdraw the money within 10 days (if not yet sent to the crowdfunded project)
<edwin>
is there an alternative to Paypal you could use that doesn't have high transaction fees? could you allow direct credit/debit card payments?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the customer transferred money to Neo900 UG to get used immediately. If PayPal refuses to fulfill that order, it's PayPal to blame and customers will sue them, not us
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: nope, sorry, direct CC processing is even more of a mess
<DocScrutinizer05>
also I'm more worried about those 200 customers who already paid via PP, rather that how to make future payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: (goteo) we don't want a limited time campaign
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's idiotic
<edwin>
just saying it was more than 30 days in advance
<hellekin>
DocScrutinizer05: limited time is because the entity cannot retain the funds indefinitely
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: aah, thanks.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hellekin: we also don't want anybody to retain any funds, that's why we have a problem with PP now
<hellekin>
PP is a problem by itself
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we probably need our 200 PP paying customers to send a mail to PP wherein they state that they consider the payment as being made towards a crowdfunding project and they expect the funds to get handed to the project owners so those can continue with the project
<saper>
you might consider opening a campaign with indiegogo without a time limit, refund the paypal many and ask ppl to contribute there. I wouldn't even include a neo900 as a "perk" there I think.
<edwin>
so maybe its considered under the 30 day limit that way, if they don't look at how long ago they did the preapproval :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
as soon a PayPal knows about that fact, they hardly can still freeze the money. they MUST either hand it to Neo900 UG or state that they can't fulfill this order and refund the payment to the sender *in full*
<DocScrutinizer05>
saper: this won't fly and I don't want gifts, i want people to get something for the money they hand to me
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since I do, PP turns that against us and says "well, then we keep the money until you actually deliver something"
<saper>
I fully understand. Probably Paypal will not do it, sadly.
<edwin>
'All a seller needs to do is contact customer service and provide proof – such as pay stubs for employees or invoices for suppliers. ' would it help if you try to do that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
not really, since a) it's only 30% of the amount we provide invoices for, that PP will free from frozen reserve, and b) we need 100% of the invoice paid before we could reclaim a 30% from PayPal
<DocScrutinizer05>
the down payments we asked for are needed a 100% to pay invoices for material and laborship
<DocScrutinizer05>
and 66% of those came in via PP, 34% via bank transfer
<DocScrutinizer05>
saper: yes, I'm also afraid they won't understand. So probably best we could get is "no more PayPal payments, all our customers instruct PP to treat their payment as meant for a crowdfunding, then after a few weeks PP releases the payments where customers instructed PP to do so and refunds the rest"
<DocScrutinizer05>
though honestly I wonder what the heck PP did, they didn't even know the website neo900.org, so I honestly doubt they did thorough checks on the nature of the project and judged just from what I told them. I admit I didn't emphasize the cowdfunding aspect too much back when since I wasn't aware what been their concern anyway. I only learned about that crowdfunding versus pre-sales issue from their meil where they told me that they will
<DocScrutinizer05>
not waive the reserve
<DocScrutinizer05>
mail*
<saper>
they just watch the account
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<saper>
it's probably even automated
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what I suspect as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'll draft a 'letter to PayPal Risk Management' and send it to my lawyer to evaluate
<DocScrutinizer05>
regardless of that, it for sure can't hurt when every customer who paid with PP tells them via email that s7he considers this project a crowdfunding project, s/he read the TOS (https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_cms=3&controller=cms&id_lang=1&content_only=1) and s/he instructs PP to release the payment so it can get used in the way s/he understood it will get used for: 100% for material purchase and labor wages
<DocScrutinizer05>
or, to cite the product detail description: >>The DOWN PAYMENT is required for sourcing risk components (hard to source chips, etc.), for purchasing case parts, and for related expenses.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
which pretty Aristotelian-logically precludes freezing the funds until said risk components and case parts are shipped
<saper>
I really would like to find out what the Finanzamt has to say about crowdfunding
<saper>
gnupg has paid VAT according to their statement
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a sidenote this shit already hurts the project by delaying it and by eating my time to deal with it instead of working at R&D
<saper>
well, some due diligence is worth doing in advance :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course you pay VAT, sooner or later
<edwin>
should one quote the order id from the neo900 shop, or is that meaningless to paypal?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the order number form shop is unknown to PayPal
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's the transaction number of paypal that's needed
<DocScrutinizer05>
pretty please keep contact AT neo900.org in (B)CC: of such mail, if you think this is no problem for you
<DocScrutinizer05>
or at least let me know you sent such mail, so I have an idea what this whole affair looks like on PP side and from their perspective
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<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly "Reserve USD 200,000.-- for 'Kartenverkauf' (whatever that means :-o)" - it looks pretty arbitrary and aggressive
<saper>
it might be worth considering a plan B
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm always considering a plan B and a plan C
<saper>
I think they have their assess covered with their ToS and the money laudering laws and whatever
<saper>
laundering, even
<DocScrutinizer05>
they can't cover their ass when both sender and recipient of money are unanimously instructing them what to do with the money. They might get sued for robbery/fraud
<DocScrutinizer05>
they could freeze the money when authorities instruct them to do so
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<DocScrutinizer05>
unless that happens, they have to pass on the money to somebody, either sender or recipient
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB there is no dispute about the payment
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<edwin>
I have made a Paypal payment on 2015-MM-DD (charged on 2015-MM-DD) to Neo900 UG: PAYPAL *NEO900UGHAF, <number> GBR. I instruct Paypal to release 100% of the funds for the purpose I intended them to be used for: purchase of materials and labor wages, quoting from the shop page [1]: "The DOWN PAYMENT is required for sourcing risk components (hard to source chips, etc.), for purchasing case parts, and for related expenses." I confirm that I have read the Neo
<edwin>
^something like this?
<edwin>
(formatted properly, sorry for lame paste)
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly <number> is PayPal transaction number?
<edwin>
it is what is on my bank statement 11 digit number
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<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: sounds pretty good to me, can't see anything incorrect
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<jonsger>
edwin: in line 6 there should be [2]
<edwin>
what email address should I send it to?
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonsger: good spotting :-)
<edwin>
fixed ty
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: I don't know which would be the right email addr.
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's hope somebody in here knows
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe there is even a way to send an "email" to paypal inside their website?
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme check that
<Kero>
is there not a person inside PP that you are communicating with, that might be quicker to assess the content of the email and release the funds?
<saper>
they usual have some case number when communicating with DocScrutinizer05
<Kero>
fairly sure if I send this to helpdesk@paypal.nl they'll come up with "we are doing this according to standrad procedure"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't want to disclose that, it might have unforeseen adverse effects
<saper>
sure, up to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
rather make sure you add the correct "Transaktionscode 6WC49563P514...." for the very payment you refer to. As shown on your PayPal website
<edwin>
hmm payment status: reversed, on hold, denied, under review, refunded, completed,pending
<edwin>
is it any of those?
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: maybe also state that you explicitly waive any rights to rollback the transaction for refund (unless PP fails to free the amounbt to Neo900 UG)
<DocScrutinizer05>
allegedly your payment to Neo900 is "completed"
<edwin>
ok so the transaction actually shows up as complted in my account
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
and in transaction details you should see the transaction number on top
<DocScrutinizer05>
transaction code
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<edwin>
#17alphanumeric stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
like 70S613177R530963R)
<DocScrutinizer05>
-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, and maybe also note that you talked to the owner of destination account and there is *definitely no problem* with that account per se
<edwin>
sent, form says they'll answer within 24h
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks!
<DocScrutinizer05>
could you provide an updated pastebin?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe other customers would like to use it
<Kero>
hilariously, PP says I should contact them before Nov 16 if I have a problem with Neo900, coz if so, I may be entitled to customer protection
<DocScrutinizer05>
that is exactly the period they are _supposed_ to be somewhat entitled to keep/freeze the money. Alas I can't even see this info for any of the frozen payments
<edwin>
might want to wait till I hear back from them
<DocScrutinizer05>
generally they are supposed to not be allowed to freeze >6 months
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<edwin>
for me it say 'You can still report the problem in the Resolution Centre within 180 days.'
<edwin>
so yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: we had one customer who already did that last week, and he didn't hear back on email at all, however he gave hotline a phonecall and was told there's nothing he could do since "the problem is with Neo900 UG account"
* DocScrutinizer05
has headache now. Probably induced by stress
<edwin>
don't they have an office you could visit?
<Kero>
180 days, so, if you allow me to be optimistic, would my money to you be released Nov 16th automatically? Since I loose *my* PP rights?
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin: nope, no office
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kero: that's what I hope for. However I didn't notice any such magical increase of non-frozen amount on PP account during last maybe 5 days. Alas I have no clue when such an event was due, we would need to find out errr - of course - just find out earliest payment <6 months ago
<Kero>
anyways, sent a message via that PP site, pretty much like what edwin pasted.
<Kero>
too bad that when I ordered, it was easier to use PP rather than my Dutch bank account
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, we have one payment on 13. 4. and one on 14. 4. - let's see if they 'expire' tomorrow and Wednesday
<Kero>
pessimistic me says your entire account is frozen, not individual payments.
<DocScrutinizer05>
pessimistic me says they update the expiry period with every new payment
<Wizzup>
Kero: I used IBAN from my dutch bank account
<Wizzup>
was pretty easy
<Kero>
wizzup: I know. I was not in NL at the time. That's why. If only I had known...
<Wizzup>
:)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
if only I had taken care to immediately move all funds from PP to bank account as soon as they came in
<Kero>
but I want my Neo900 ! The devices it is supposed to replace are deteriorating one by one...
<DocScrutinizer05>
which gives me horror that PP also may withdraw money from bank account
<Kero>
so keep up the good work and don't worry too much.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kero: yes, I know. I feel with you. And not only the devices are deteriorating, me as well is rapidly aging and already in a burnout state
* Kero
may be willing to pay again by bank, with the understanding that that also contributes to my (single) Neo900
<Kero>
but not today, because, well, I'm not in NL
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kero: very welcome, and of course any payment to your "account" in shop is worth the money, no matter which payment method
<edwin>
for the next payment I'll try to use SEPA, apparently my online banking has some instructions how to do that now
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw we locked PP for now, no more PP payments to shop
<Kero>
good, so this particular problem will not grow anymore.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it felt like the right thing to do under those circumstances
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not too sure I would re-enable PP processor in shop, even when this recent issue maybe gets sorted eventually
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/too//
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<Kero>
got an automated reply with answers, requiring me to respond (as the answers are, of course, inadequate). This is not going to be fun.
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<wpwrak>
Kero: we can assume they're very good at sitting on money
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<wpwrak>
saper: btw, got any ideas beyond the ones brought up so far, regarding ways to recover from this mess ?
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<saper>
wpwrak: other that what I've written before? (Re-launch on indiegogo and send the money back) - no
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<wpwrak>
saper: hmm, do you mean to set up an indiegogo campaign and to somehow process pledges as a re-assignment of the funds blocked by PP on the neo900 ug account to that campaign ? that sounds very complicated and i kinda wonder if PP or indiegogo would do that.
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<saper>
wpwrak: no, one can be forced to plainly refund what got blocked by PayPal and hope that folk will resend the money under crowdsourcing platform terms
<saper>
this is nasty I know
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<saper>
wpwrak: the only thing required is the ability to refund "reserved" orders, I think it may be possible
<wpwrak>
saper: okay, so you're suggesting that neo900 ug tries to unroll payments, until the account is empty. do you know if this is possible, i.e., are you aware of a case where this has been done ?
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<saper>
no idea, but even Paypal says - if you close the account, they refund the reserved money
<wpwrak>
yes, but i think there is a clause that that this could take something like half a year
<wpwrak>
actually, no. i'm confusing this with releasing reserves. haven't heard of refunds of closed accounts.
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<saper>
wpwrak: at least according to 7.2 of AGBs they can't keep the reserve when there is no reason to
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<Oksana>
Well, aren't PayPal employees trying to micromanage your funds... >> we will work with sellers on a case-by-case basis to release additional funds. All a seller needs to do is contact customer service and provide proof – such as pay stubs for employees or invoices for suppliers <<
<Oksana>
Well, banks do it when you take money from the bank; bank has, in certain sense, right to worry about what's happening with money. But here, money is customers', not PayPal's, so when a certain percentage of customers indicates to PayPal that they are outraged at PayPal's hold-money policy, Paypal should finally hear that there are well-understood ToS and no reason to freeze
<saper>
PayPal has a similar role to the bank (in fact they have a banking license) - the money transferred from the customers is a form of credit to the PayPal recipient.
<saper>
That money can be revoked under some circumstances : reversal of the direct debit transaction, or a credit card cashback.
<saper>
chargeback, sorry
<saper>
every transaction done using those instruments is a micro-credit, under condition that the transaction will be completed fully.
<saper>
so Paypal borrows money from credit card processors (or banks in case of direct debit) and lends it to the Paypal recipient, for a hopefully short time - but there is still a non-zero risk.
<saper>
it's not a "insert coin here", "the coin drops at the other end" service
<saper>
I have once applied for the ability to charge customers using direct debit and the bank wanted to perform a full-scale credit check on our organization.
<saper>
My biggest grievance with Paypal is that those issues are not clearly communicated *in*advance*, before you start doing any serious business with them.
<Oksana>
Yes, they are trying to hide sharp rocks and wheels of their mechanisms under a bridge woven from thin threads, and they care about dangers only after something "heavy" starts crossing the bridge
<saper>
it's all "easy"
<saper>
I remember one account I was running got blocked once or maybe even twice (two thresholds)
<saper>
and it was very annoying to ship the paperwork while the money was frozen
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, this is paradox and non-conclusive. When a customer hands money to paypal, paypal doesn't give a credit to anybody
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<saper>
yes they do
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, please let me give you a credit, hand me over your money
<wpwrak>
saper: the full credit check before authorizing direct debit would make sense, given all the nonsense you could do with that
<saper>
the only problem is the definition of what is "the transaction" agreeable to all parties
<saper>
wpwrak: so imagine a paypal fundraiser for something, say "help for refugees", collecting 2.5M euro and then the guy disappears and people call Visa and German banks to withdraw the money.
<saper>
there are different risk profiles for cash transactions for example - so even if I can process Visa cards for selling at my kiosk, I can't hand out cash.
<DocScrutinizer05>
that won't happen since PayPal doesn't have any customer protection for fundraisers. That's why I have to insist that Neo900 is a crowdfunding project
<saper>
DocScrutinizer05: where do they say they have no customer protection for fundraisers?
<saper>
do they also tell the customers "By the way, you also cannot cancel your direct debit with your bank. You just can't.".
<saper>
Basically part of the problem is, a Visa or german bank customer cannot say, "YES YES YES I WANT TO THROW THIS MONEY INTO THIS BLACKHOLE."