<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe there doesn't exist any verilog sources? who tells you they used such advanced tool and did not simply draw the chip mask by hand, like intel did for years
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway free verilog code is not a relevant criterion for this project
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk, bye
<Necrosporus>
Btw does Neo900 have a published bootrom source?
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<jonwil>
I believe Neo900 will be using uboot or something which is FOSS. Beyond that I dont know.
<jonwil>
i.e. all the stuff Neo900 UG is using/runs will be FOSS
<DocScrutinizer05>
look, we have absolutely no info you couldn't find yourself in the internet, using google or whatever. So we can't share any secrit info
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we can't use components that need such stuff available only under NDA, since only big companies qualify for such NDA to start with
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the beauty and the curse of Neo900 and similar projects: they are built by guys that have no superior knowledge to you, basically you could have done it yourself, and you can copy each singe step we did
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what I call "open hardware"
<DocScrutinizer05>
the downside: we can't use bleeding edge powerfull stuff like snapdragon etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need to resort to using the chips that are available and have publically available docs
<DocScrutinizer05>
which means we are somewhat outdated at specs and also the components are quite expensive compared to waht big players like samsung have access to
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk again
<Necrosporus>
Yes, I have read both links, thank you. Though my question was about boot rom which is ROM code, which either have its source available or have people who disassmbled it and published their results
<jonwil>
The boot rom is burned into the SoC at build time and no its not open source
<jonwil>
I dont know if anyone has dumped it (much less disassembled it)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think you can't access it to dump it
<jonwil>
probably
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<Necrosporus>
Is it possible that it for example installs a hypervisor which, say, monitors memory and executes code after a magic word, invisible for later stages?
<DocScrutinizer05>
in theory yes, but such backdoor would be existing and active in *all* devices then, and eventually it will show up massively in e.g. Lauterbach debugger
<DocScrutinizer05>
"all devices" = all that use a DM3730 SoC
<DocScrutinizer05>
like beagleboard xM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and a dozen other platforms, by RIM and LG and dunno whom else
<Necrosporus>
Are you allowed to disclose content of RMS letters about user-updateable firmware?
<DocScrutinizer05>
also the needed hw decoder etc would probably shine up bright in chip mask analysis that gets done by competitors as well as inipendent companies
<DocScrutinizer05>
I provided a link to tmo post that has them
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, those are only my answers, I didn't ask Mr Stallman about permission to publish his original mails
<Necrosporus>
Interesting enough. Have you got no answer to your point whatsoever?
<Necrosporus>
Either way I think that I understand the rationale partially
<DocScrutinizer05>
*nope, I didn't get an answer to those mails. I however received a mail from Mr Stallman a year or so later on, that asked if I would be willing to join FSF in a position as evaluating expert for RYF criteria in hardware. I actually didn't answer that one
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't see myself in a position where I would prove what's obvious anyway: not a single hardware could fulfill RYF when you look close enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
every eMMC flash, every moderately smart sensor chip, each storage drive, each LCD screen controller has a firmware (though often you can't even see it), and there's no way whatsoever to prove that nobody can ever update such firmware by a secret procedure that only the chip manufacturer knows
<DocScrutinizer05>
accepting that job would be like nominating an atheist as catholic preacher
<Necrosporus>
DocScrutinizer05, RYF requires that the user is not supposed to update the fw at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
our hw design guarantees that nothing can interupt and alter the CPU executing the user's code
<Necrosporus>
Also ryf cryteryon are actually feasible
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that's as good as it gets
<Necrosporus>
DocScrutinizer05, have you read them?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, once 3 years or so ago, and another time like mid of last year. And that's really enough
<Necrosporus>
This link mentions rationale behind criteria
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not going to apply SOFTWARE criteria to a hardware platform
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's explicit nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
is it possible to run a 100% FSF-compliant FOSS OS on Neo900? yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't ship any OS with the hardware, so we can't qualify for RYF anyway, no matter what
<Necrosporus>
All the product software must be free software. The product software includes all software that the seller includes in the product, or provides with the product, or recommends for use in conjunction with the product, or steers users towards installation in the product.
<Necrosporus>
You are not require to ship the OS
<DocScrutinizer05>
again, I don't care
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm also not willing to hide info about, resp not support installation of software that would not comply with this requirement of FSF
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually we will follow an diametrically opposite aproach, providing our customers with all the info we can get about how to install whatever is possible to install on Neo900. Even when it was windows_ce
<Necrosporus>
I also see this goal of FSF highly questionable
<DocScrutinizer05>
FSF tries to abuse device manufacturers to put pressure on companies that are not FSF compliant. I don't like to get instrumentalized and abused in such way
<Necrosporus>
I'm not sure what do you mean. But I think that _not_ providing info is somehow wrong if you have it and it's not a private data of some person
<Necrosporus>
be it documentation or program source
<DocScrutinizer05>
to put it simpler: FSF next will ask to put stickers on RYF devices: "does NOT support Microsoft products"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not willing to be part of such canpaign
<DocScrutinizer05>
an FSF compliant linux distro for example MUST NOT offer non-free drivers
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's maybe OK for FSF and the goals they have, but for me as user it's an annoyance
<Necrosporus>
They want to have a distribution that you can safely recommend for a new user and somehow stay clean
<Necrosporus>
I think it must be the point
<Necrosporus>
So the user is not able to accidentally install a non-free driver
<DocScrutinizer05>
FSF's motivations are way less pragmatic
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's all about forcing manufacturers of hardware to provide FOSS drivers for their hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think amicable persuasion is preferrable over using force
<DocScrutinizer05>
for protecting clueless users a simple warning requester to nod off would do
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<Oksana>
Having closed-source software-or-drivers is fine... As long as there is open-source alternative available. Because how can a new-comer enter the competition if there is no working and free example of how it is done? You cannot build a new bicycle from scratch without knowing how bicycles were made before; or, you can, but it will be way too steep of a learning curve
<P-G>
If something good doesn't exist, best to make it as best you can quickly and get other people working on it rather than just work on it yourself forever and struggle to keep up with changing tech.
<P-G>
Uneducated end users like myself need alternatives. :p
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<ndnihil>
shut up and take my money!
* P-G
throws money into the channel.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, I wanted to have homer for the 1EUR-top-up product picture. But we couldn't find anything that clearly was free of copyright
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<ndnihil>
eh, imagery used as parody is generally considered within fair use
<ndnihil>
eh, in internetland "shut up and take my money" is more known by fry than by homer
<ndnihil>
it has become a rather popular meme
<ndnihil>
as you can see
<ndnihil>
sooo, any word on the neo900?
<ndnihil>
I've rebuilt so many droid 4's I'm out of spares
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<ndnihil>
and now the wife needs a new phone
<ndnihil>
she's currently using my n900 as a daily
* P-G
is currently shopping for a Galaxy S3 because of a freshly broken screen.
<ndnihil>
hah
<ndnihil>
she had a gs3, and broke her screen
<ndnihil>
s/had/has/
<ndnihil>
it's sitting on my desk so I can root it and pull her data off
<P-G>
I've dropped my Turbo dozens of times but bad luck today. Good opportunity to try out Replicant anyway.
<P-G>
I feel like I know enough about Linux now that I can have root on my phone without making any huge mistakes.
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<ndnihil>
I figure since we're both due for new phones, and she's liking the n900, might be time move her to a FOSS device
<ndnihil>
but there's fuck all out
<ndnihil>
and no chance of something with a physical kb
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<ndnihil>
even been looking for slabs with access to USB pins so I can print a slider case and add kb
<P-G>
Yeah, pretty much every company except Blackberry seems to be moving away from physical keyboards.
<ndnihil>
yeah, looked at the priv
<P-G>
I tried to...
<ndnihil>
but fuck if I want to be the one to have to root it
<P-G>
Couldn't figure out how to use their website.
<P-G>
Micro USB keyboards are the way of the future.
<ndnihil>
I just looked up pics/specs/dimensions
<P-G>
We just need one that colapses and has a clip to hold the phone upright on your lap.
<P-G>
I don't think I would get a Blackberry. The keyboard doesn't even look comfortable. I liked physical keyboards when they were available but I've pretty much come to terms with touch screens now. Just don't type as much. ;(
<ndnihil>
I see what you did there
<ndnihil>
no wait
<ndnihil>
wrong chan
<ndnihil>
I despise screen only
<ndnihil>
uses up half the screen for input, and my hands are too big for it
<P-G>
Better keyboard software should be able to help with that somehow.
<ndnihil>
nah, I've gone through a full run of softkb
<ndnihil>
haven't found shit that I like
<P-G>
Me neither, lol. But theoretically.
<P-G>
I'd like a nice soft keyboard I can use without hurting my fingers. At least until I can plug in a full keyboard.
<P-G>
#mechanical_life
<ndnihil>
if there were a reasonably sized slab with some type of practical access to usb host pins, I'd totally be down with making a case/kb addon
<ndnihil>
there's jack shit for that kind of info floating around though
<P-G>
Yeah, I don't know much about what's out there but I haven't been seeing many hardware projects at all. Ironic since hardware prototyping is now so much easier than twenty years ago...
<P-G>
They're just waiting for consumer PCB printers.
<ndnihil>
eh, I started making my own
<ndnihil>
in theory I have enough kit here to finish one
<ndnihil>
modem module I have is only like 2G or some shit
<ndnihil>
gm862
<P-G>
You would have that laying around, lol.
* P-G
has nothing of value, including prototyping skills.
<ndnihil>
I wonder if there's any good modules out now
<P-G>
Just grab the one Neo900 was using? Or are they not sold one off?
<ndnihil>
if going from scratch, I'd probably want something dual sim
<DocScrutinizer05>
GM801?
<ndnihil>
haven't seen that one
<ndnihil>
is what what's in the neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't exist anymore, we planned to use it until we got signalled it was vaporware