<ds2>
isn't the accusation that you guys are not "shipping" considered defamation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, that's sinple evaluation result of PP's risk mgmt dept
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<ds2>
but the very nature of what you are doing means nothing is shipping (presently)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, but PP doesn't see or doesn't appreciate that
<ds2>
yet, their patently false and impossible accusation is materially harming your ability to ship
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's what my lawyer told them
<ds2>
doesn't matter what PP sees. If a judge/magstrate agrees...
<ds2>
furthermore, my classifying youas a high risk, they have commit libel by accusing you of fraud
<ds2>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that woud be an uphill battle which would cost more than we could unfreeze
<ds2>
then drop them
<ds2>
your skills are worth wasting on chasing that
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, we already did for all that matters re shop. PP payment is not available anymore. Dropping the accoutn doesn't free the payments
<ds2>
send a letter to the paypal users asking them to do a charge back
<wpwrak>
ds2: their attitude: "we'll keep the eggs until you ship the chickens"
<ds2>
wpwrak: yes but chargebacks cost them $$
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I just want to start a discussion today, and continue on it and on the feedback from community's side tomorrow. Today I'm wasted and should prlly go to sleep
<ds2>
of course, close your account before you do that ;)
<ds2>
those #@$!#!@%@#$@#$@ insist on having your banking info
<wpwrak>
ds2: the problem is that those things are mentioned in the fine print. only that the wording doesn't suggest wholesale confiscation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sender says "please proceed", receiver says "please proceed". PP says "no, we won't". So who's to blame?
* Oksana
does not like credit cards...
<ds2>
but I am just a EE. not a lawyer :D
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: no, PP says "yes, we already did" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: same here
<bencoh>
is there a lawer abord the plane? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: then both sender and receiver tell them "no you didn't!"
<bencoh>
lawyer*
<wpwrak>
bencoh: that's actually a good question :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
an even better question: how to proceed to get an additional 200 preorders (100 at least), without PP getting involved?
<DocScrutinizer05>
my idea is kickstarter or indiegogo
<DocScrutinizer05>
a lot to sort out when we go this route
<ds2>
amazon payments?
<DocScrutinizer05>
starting with "how do we manage our valued existing customers' contributions?"
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, please ponder and share your thoughts. While I need to sleep for a few hours. later on I'll join in again
<wpwrak>
the indiegogo standard answer (from a faq or such *) would be "by feeding their contributions into the indiegogo campaign"
<wpwrak>
(*) i asked them about our case, but no answer yet
<wpwrak>
(feeding) ... which would of course be neither possible not particularly desirable since we'd burn 10% in the process
<wpwrak>
(for indiegogo and CC fees)
<amatus>
DocScrutinizer05: lawering up is expensive, but making a big stink on social media is not
<amatus>
that seems to be the way to get an actual human to consider your case in these companies where everything is run by algorithms including customer support
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes. For customers that's a viable option. after all it's your money PP froze. Even while it's on Neo900 UG's account it still doesn't help us in any way, not even gaining interest
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<DocScrutinizer05>
it seems there's a hard 6 months period in which CC payments always can get rolled back, and it seems PP per default freezes such CC payments when the amount is >10k bucks. This seems to even be a requirement by the CC companies. *After* those 6 months however it might be quite possible for PP to free the funds
<DocScrutinizer05>
given the most of payments been done in May and June, I'd hope (though not much) for the funds getting freed end of November / December
<DocScrutinizer05>
if enough customers unanimously declare the transaction related to their payment as accomplished and free of disputes
<DocScrutinizer05>
n8
<DocScrutinizer05>
ps: there's no better "proof of shipping" than customer telling "yes, I am content with what I got" (whatever that is they got, not relevant to PP)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
NeoNDOWN PAYMENT NeoN bare board-103
<DocScrutinizer05>
+1EURDown Payment top up-8169
<Sicelo>
:)
<Sicelo>
how is progress with the devices?
<DocScrutinizer05>
see backscroll of yesterday evening
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're in a pinch and need to consider ways out
<Sicelo>
:(
<DocScrutinizer05>
PP situation is unclear but problematic and not really promising
<DocScrutinizer05>
306 preorders is 192 short of what we based our calculations on
<DocScrutinizer05>
err 194
<Sicelo>
that's bad. so you hinting that project may get scrapped?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we could do with an additional 94 instead of 194, and we could do when PP had not frozen 60%+ of our funds
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I'm not willing to scrap the project
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just a question how to go on from where we are
<Sicelo>
:)
<Sicelo>
ok. best wishes. i am one of those who can't afford it at all, but do wish it success
<DocScrutinizer05>
we could try to make more noise on social media to generate more preorders, or we could start a kickstarter or similar thing, or we could just wait for the missing preorders coming in at recent rate of ~2 per week
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm currently inclined to go the KS path
<DocScrutinizer05>
it could generate a lot of new orders, way more than we need
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it's also a lot of work and quite a few problems to get solved, first and foremost how we "transfer" or merge or generally handle our existing customers in context of such KS campaign
<Sicelo>
i was about to ask that
<amatus>
doesn't kickstarter require a working prototype?
<jonsger>
they have lots of "open-source" hardware
<amatus>
oooo, like novena
<wpwrak>
amatus: last time i checked they just require that you're honest. i.e., you can't show a photorealistic rendering of the final product if you're still busy soldering chips
<wpwrak>
crowdsupply seem to be pretty US-centric
<wpwrak>
especially regarding the nice additional services they offer. would be nice to have, but ...
<amatus>
i don't think the novena project is us based
<wpwrak>
but it may still be US-centric in terms of the flow of materials. dunno who'd be the actual contract partner
<wpwrak>
one issue there is VAT. if neo900 ug sells things to people in the EU, neo900 ug has to charge and pay VAT
<wpwrak>
if a US company sells something to someone in the EU, they don't worry about that, but the recipient pays VAT (and other fees) through customs
<wpwrak>
plus there are a few more such regulations, like a garbage disposal fee system that exists in the EU
<wpwrak>
now one could of course dream up ways to dodge this. but then, the question is whether we'd get it right. if not, it could get very very costly.
<wpwrak>
and considering past experience with business vs. engineers, i'd say it's better to keep those things simple
<wpwrak>
startnext sound fairly friendly. pity that payment options get drastically reduced when crossing EUR 1000. with VAT, we're always above that.
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<saper>
DocScrutinizer05: I read about your thoughts yesterday, I think that going the IndieGogo route (or something similar) is a good one
<saper>
might also help to generate additional orders
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: That is a good question, what to do with existing backers.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: I think what you should do is do the generic kickstarter campaign, entry level donations which don't get you anything but get your name on some list of supporters (Not an expense hosting a list of backers)
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: You should just tell existing backers that they should give money via the €1 credits thing.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: also, when you say that paypal froze the money, can't the backers just ask for the money back from paypal and then pay it via wire transfer?
<Arch-TK>
Also, why can't paypal just ask the people who paid the money if they think they're being cheated?
<Arch-TK>
Why did they even investigate in the first place?
<Arch-TK>
Did someone complain?
<Arch-TK>
oh, chargeback costs YOU ?
<Arch-TK>
what the fuck paypal
<Arch-TK>
Also, why not just get all the people who used paypal directly or indirectly to complain to paypal about being shit.
<Arch-TK>
I'm sure 100 people (or however many people there are) complaining wouldn't just fly past paypal's face.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: incidentally how much is a lawyer per hour?
<Arch-TK>
I wonder, if I complain to PP and tell them that I decided not to use their service because I was worried that THIS project might fail if I asked THEM to handle my money, would it add fuel to the fire against them?
<Arch-TK>
Yeah, I've made the mistake of not researching something before and been bitten bad. But don't worry, if this 6 month rule is correct, and if the project gets delayed, it gives me more time to build up some money (on my below minimum wage apprentice job) and donate some more to the project.
<Arch-TK>
However, I seriously think a kickstarter campaign could do good.
<Arch-TK>
Although it seems what wpwrak said about indiegogo could work even better, since you can account for the existing contributors.
<Arch-TK>
I wonder, could you, with the target, vary the total any one person would have to pay for a device. (Like massdrop style)
<Arch-TK>
Then you don't have to present people with "one scary large sum"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
that's one aspect we investigated during last 2 or 3 days
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<edwin>
on the topic of fundraiser sites I've seen gofundme.com used recently for another project, and it seems it has no deadlines or requirements for reaching a goal. they do however charge a percentage fee, and I'm not sure if neo900 would be appropriate for that site
<wpwrak>
*hmmmm* "victim of capitalist predators, which the laissez-faire state lets run wild". maybe a few words about class struggle, revolution, and such
<DocScrutinizer05>
suffing tortured PP victim
<DocScrutinizer05>
suffering*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
fighting the big brother and then attracted one of Big Brother's worst minions' notice and counter measures
<wpwrak>
indeed. it's all a conspiracy ! now we found the truth !
<DocScrutinizer05>
google knows what you searched for. PP knows what you bought
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatsaspp knows who's your friends, and your carrier knows where you been