<DocScrutinizer05>
when will we see systemd-bourneshd?
<Pali>
haha joke ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
several users asked me about starting a real crowdfunding campaign, like kickstarter. Seems with PP misery this is our best and only chance to go ahead. Comments solicited
<Pali>
campaign for what?
<Kero>
is PP releasing funds, albeit slowly? i.e. 6 months after transaction?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the sad facts: we reached only ~60% of the preorders we hoped for and expected to see. This wouldn't be a drame yet if we could wait for the remaining 30-40% come in during proto_v2/3 R&D time. But now 60% of our funds are frozen by PP, leaving us between a rock and a hard place
* Kero
is home now, if you need another down payment, can make one. /me only needs one phone, so it'd be for the same complete Neo900.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kero: remains to be seen end of this month. For now not a single cent got released
<Kero>
bastards
<Wizzup>
I wonder how they can get away with that.
<jonwil>
The fact that they pull crap like that is the biggest reason I refuse to use PayPal
<DocScrutinizer05>
(60% of expected preorders) PP getting disabled on our shop site (for obvious reasons) didn't help with that either
<Kero>
"Code is Law" they just do it. Sueing them costs more than would be released
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kero: exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
it already cost us >1500RUT
<DocScrutinizer05>
EUR*
<Wizzup>
maybe some larger orga can help?
<jonwil>
The sooner someone invents some new service that has all the good features of PayPal (including the ability to use it in so many countries and pay people in so many other countries) but none of the crap (like locking accounts and taking money and crap) the better
<DocScrutinizer05>
PP only being the last stick to our feet, we are mainly suffering from the only 300+ instead of expected 500 preorders
<Kero>
FSF Europe or EFF ? PP complaints groups?
<Wizzup>
I was also thinking of one of those
<DocScrutinizer05>
AIU nobody could really fight the PP procedures. They got their rear covered
<Wizzup>
public shaming might help
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not
<DocScrutinizer05>
PP is too big to really care
<amatus>
WHAT?! pp is keeping the money i payed for a preorder?!
<ds2>
boycot paypal.
<jonwil>
I already boycot paypal
<DocScrutinizer05>
amatus: when you used CC to pay, then yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not entirely clear what they actually do but it seems they frozen all payments done with CC until we (Neo900 UG) provide proof of shipping goods
<amatus>
oh, i payed with my bank account
<DocScrutinizer05>
bank account is *probbaly* not involved, but I have no data on that, only wild guessing
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: that makes no sense. thought this was payment to fund a project
<DocScrutinizer05>
fact is that 60% of our funds are frozen
<amatus>
Invoice #IN000147 Order Number: ASVHCJHST
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, did you check recently if anything has changed on the PP account ? i.e., whether they've released anything
* Kero
paid via paypal from bank account, not CC
<DocScrutinizer05>
amatus: I have no means to check status of a particular payment. PP doesn't tell me which payments are affected by the freeze. They only tell me about the total frozenwhich is ~60%+ of our complete funds
<amatus>
even if paypal doesn't give you the money, the buyers should be able to get the money back, paypal shouldn't be able to just keep it, then buyers can get it to you a better way
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: yesterday
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: :(
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: prehaps sue paypal for nondelivery of services?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: no move at all
<jonwil>
yeah anyone who paid PayPal with CC should complain to Pay
<jonwil>
to PayPal to get their funds back
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: that was what caost me 1500 EUR already. Lawyers' wages, you know?
<jonwil>
and if that doesn't work, try to get their cc company to do a chargeback
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure if there aren't any rollback fees PP would charge us then ...
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: make lawyers fees part of the claim
<DocScrutinizer05>
they can't charge US when a customer does rollback. Anyway and nevertheless it won't do any good to our PP credibility for sure
* jonsger
say that SEPA rocks ^^
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: alas in Germany that's not really possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonsger: yeah. so true
<ds2>
oh
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: what does 'proof of shipping goods' mean
<jonsger>
DocScrutinizer05: maybe you could write a microblog entry about PayPal
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, PP is only part of the problem. I'd like to poll your (community's) feedback about starting a true KS/whatever campaign
<Wizzup>
jonsger: I think that may help indeed
<ds2>
is amazon payments better in .de land?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Wizzup: prolly a DHL/UPS whatever receipt
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Wizzup>
stupid q: is it possible to fake and then just take all the moneh out
<Wizzup>
money*
<Kero>
if you need more supporters, would announcing the project help or launching another campaign? Or would the announcing of a new campaign be the crux?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh and one apology: this whole mess left me knocked out on a mental level, so I wasn't really able to do much communication beyond the mere necessities during last 3 weeks or so (and even those were hard to do and not always successful)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Wizzup: (fake) I could send a sticker or t-shirt to every customer. That *might* fly
<Wizzup>
tshirt is probably expensive
<ds2>
is it worth throwing money after a bad company like PP?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, definitely not
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway http://www.digitalmarketer.com/paypal-vs-stripe-vs-merchant-account/ helped me understand what PP does and why they do it. And I think there's pretty little we can do about it either. In the end it been my naivety that caused this problem, I never should have offered PP to start with
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now I'm waiting for PP's answer to what lawyer sent to them. They told us they might need up to 4 (even 8) weeks to answer
<ds2>
then drop PP
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I have no hopes about the kind of answer we will get from PP
<ds2>
and ask everyone to dispute the PP charges
<ds2>
PP's merchent account price depends on number of disputes/chargebacks they get
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now I think we should wait til end of November to see if PP releases payments older than 6 months
<wpwrak>
it seems that paypal isn't getting enough bad press lately. some years ago, nobody would have touched them for such a project (cf. openmoko), for their evil reputation. nowadays, they appear nicer, not aren't.
<wpwrak>
#s/not/but/
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a small chance they will release 6-months old payments when sufficient number of customers tell them the payment was for a non-physical goods (sort of a pledge, position in a list of devices to build, schematics we published) they already received
<DocScrutinizer05>
*IF* they do, we are only delayed by 2 months thanks to PP
<ds2>
does germany have the concept of defamation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, depends
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway PP has the concept of "you MUST NOT talk bad about PP"