<jurov>
you can perhaps start recommending transferwise.com instead of paypal.
<jurov>
The other party needs just IBAN and SWIFT, the fees are reasonable and i had no problem so far.
<jurov>
In my case, receiving wires from the USA.
<jurov>
to the eurozone
<jonwil>
Someone needs to invent a PayPal clone with all the good things (like being able to pay anyone in so many countries with your credit card or bank account easily and cheaply) but none of the crap (like having your account and funds frozen)
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<jurov>
not sure if transferwise freezes funds. but as they are startup, they can't afford the bad publicity
<jurov>
i guess
<wpwrak>
jonwil: the problem are the credit cards. they make it very easy for a customer to initiate a chargeback. so if you're a payment processor, you have two choices: 1) check the merchants carefully before you accept them, so that you can be sure they are a manageable chargeback risk. 2) do as paypal does, accept virtually anyone, and freeze their account at the slightest suggestion of a hint of the vaguest possibility of trouble
<DocScrutinizer05>
with transfers > 10,000 USD per month being the usual trigger for the latter, actually also defined by creditcard comapnies
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas I learned all that the hard way
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: do you have that link to the article that explains it all ? i think you posted it somewhere yesterday. alas, i didn't record it anywhere :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-D ^^^
<wpwrak>
ah, you read my mind ;-)))
<DocScrutinizer05>
the really mean thing by PP is: they don't warn their customers (sellers) about that sort of thing
<wpwrak>
yeah, no need to get the hens excited before the fox raids their house
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I guess they have little motivation to do so, after all the money they freeze works for them while neither sender nor receiver gain any interest from the possibly billions that are frozen that way at PP
<wpwrak>
if this was more widely known, a lot more cautious merchants would avoid them - including such that are a very good risk for PP
<wpwrak>
plus, they'd still look for alternatives, so they'd go directly to any potential competitor. PP obviously have no interest in encouraging any of this
<DocScrutinizer05>
about time somebody writes a blog titled "What PayPal does <i>not</i> tell you"
<jonwil>
Probably 95% or more of the merchants who are big enough to go directly via merchant account for credit card processing but who go through PayPal because it saves money and is easier for them would drop PayPal and get their own merchant accounot
<wpwrak>
https://transferwise.com/terms-of-use look decent. didn't spot any traps. they can refuse transfers (3.6) and charge for it (4.2) but that seems to be only for clerical errors, not random acts of evilness
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah, Apple Pay, not PayPal. I think I'm a tad dizzy
<wpwrak>
maybe ask first for opinions before making a recommendation
<wpwrak>
hmm, google for transferwise blocked
<DocScrutinizer05>
no recommendation, just mentioning the service with no warranty explicit or omplied, other than that we didn't find any nasty details during a cursory check
<wpwrak>
but no overly nasty problems. just that transfers may not go through, but without freezes or anything of that sort
<wpwrak>
well, i read a few dozen :)
<wpwrak>
ds2: BTC is another major can of worms ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: antiatom and dos1 were looking into this and I thought they would eventually come up with a solution. I have no time for installing that
<ds2>
fine. then ask for gold coins to be shipped by registered mail :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I'm EE, not a merchant
<wpwrak>
why not abandon money and trade goods and services ? to get a neo900, you have to feed joerg for two months, wash his dishes and walk his dog every day
<DocScrutinizer05>
neither a web designer
<DocScrutinizer05>
too cheap
<DocScrutinizer05>
3 months minimum
<wpwrak>
heh :)
<ds2>
I like that
<wpwrak>
ds2: the catch is of course that he has no dog, so you won't be able to fulfil your part of the bargain ;-))
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually that's a very cumbersome 'currency'. How would we handle the second and 3rd customer?
<DocScrutinizer05>
also I very quickly would be out of funds to purchase the chips and other components
<wpwrak>
#2 could clean your apartment, give you a massage when your neck is stiff from working on the PC, do groceries and sort your mail
<wpwrak>
#3 could clean the homes of your neighbours, who'd then pay you
<wpwrak>
...
<wpwrak>
#10000-#11000 can work on the palace you'll inhabit when the project is finished and you need a more stylish accommodation
<wpwrak>
ah, and #1000-#1100 will build the living quarters #1101 and on will rent ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or defend the borders of my kingdom
<wpwrak>
that too. and navigate the spice ships, etc.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, nice factoid
<DocScrutinizer05>
~thatis
<infobot>
rumour has it, thatis is That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is
<DocScrutinizer05>
inspired by lion eaters
<DocScrutinizer05>
shishi shi shi shishi shi shi shishi shi shi shishi shi shi shishi shi shi
<DocScrutinizer05>
had had had had had had had had had had had had
<DocScrutinizer05>
also nice: Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
<jonwil>
what's wrong with BTC? There are services that let you accept bitcoin and instantly transfer it into USD or EUR or whatever so you aren't exposed to the fluctuation-in-value risk that comes with holding onto your BTC over time
<DocScrutinizer05>
who says there's sth wrong with BTC?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just those services you mention are themselfes introducing their own wealth of trouble, starting with non-existent TOS and disclosing the crux only after a 2h registration process, as an error message: "sorry, you must provide the data of a know US-american bank here"
<wpwrak>
hmm, didn't someone we discussed this with mention that many such exchanges are frauds ? they play nice for a while, until people send large amounts. then they vanish and with them the money.
<DocScrutinizer05>
that too
<DocScrutinizer05>
the risk is comparatively small when you actually instantly get your money as wire transfer to your bank account
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I been there once, just to learn after a full day of work to enable that stuff, that I would need an US-american bank account for that service
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus I won't touch that stuff again. I hoped for antiatom and dos1 who iirc said they can do this
<DocScrutinizer05>
my english fails, even with dictionary and help, on "Can can can can can can can can can can."
<DocScrutinizer05>
"Examples of the can-can dance that other examples of the same dance are able to outshine, or figuratively to put into the trashcan, are themselves able to outshine examples of the same dance".
<DocScrutinizer05>
hrrhrr >>Police help dog bite victim<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oh, and this is called 'embedding'? Maybe this changes my attitude towards that term: "The rat the cat the dog bit chased escaped"
<DocScrutinizer05>
n8
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<edwin>
DocScrutinizer05: I used a Visa debit card
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<R0b0t1>
wpwrak: the exchanges aren't frauds
<R0b0t1>
or rather, it's easy to tell if an exchange IS a fraud
<R0b0t1>
coinbase isn't a fraud, for instance
<R0b0t1>
and if they disappear I know who to sue (whether that would get me anything is another question entirely)
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<jurov>
anyway, if you ever decide to go ahead with bitcoins , i recommend paymium.com - you will get euros directly and their cto is here in irc (davout)