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<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: So so far the project has been designed around a "flat" payment model where everyone pays the same price and the number of people who buy the thing dictates the price.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: But I imagine there are more than a few people who would be willing to spend a lot more (1kEUR let's say) on top of the price of the device just to ensure the project reaches completion.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: If the project were to go on kickstarter or some other website, it would mean that you could offer trivial things like "initials on the PCB silk screen" or "full name on list of contributors" or "a chance to have a beer with one of the creators in person" for a heightened price
<Arch-TK>
then people who are willing to pay more will be able to do so, and still get something back
<Arch-TK>
I mean you might want to ask some more inventive people for the higher level rewards
<Arch-TK>
but I think this has a chance of doing two things:
<Arch-TK>
getting more money for the project, and lowering the base device price to encourage more buyers.
<Arch-TK>
overall, if such a plan were to succeed, you could likely get more funding and eventually produce more devices
<Arch-TK>
if it fails, then I don't think the project would lose anything.
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: what is really needed is a moving target kind of kickstarter, where depending on how much money is raised, the rewards cost different prices
<Arch-TK>
and if a price falls, the people who invested in that reward could keep the amount they paid and get more, or ask for it to be refunded
<wpwrak>
Arch-TK: DocScrutinizer is on holiday for the next three weeks :-)
<Arch-TK>
oh, of course :P
<Arch-TK>
wpwrak: what do you think of my idea?
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<wpwrak>
regarding paying more: i guess you could already do that: just "top off" by whatever amount you like, then you can later on tell us (or put it in a comment that goes with your order) to just keep part of it
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<wpwrak>
(extra perks) yes, a "wall of fame" is easy to make. putting names on the PCB a little harder. i thought about that (i'm drafting a possible crowdfunding strategy), but i'm not sure if we want to commit just yet to occupying PCB space for text. but yes, it's an option to keep in mind.
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<wpwrak>
(lower cost by volume) i asked kickstarter and indiegogo about that. KS answered that it can't be done nicely. they agreed that a plan B i outlined would work, but it's messy.
<wpwrak>
that plan B would be to add new offers at a lower cost if the campaign exceeds certain thresholds, then tell people who got the same thing at a higher price to cancel the previous one and get the cheaper one. but this sounds very messy.
<wpwrak>
also, given that we're limited by the maximum number of N900 parts we expect to be able to source, the potential for a significant volume discount may not be all that large.
<wpwrak>
indiegogo didn't answer. i'm actually not even sure if my question made it beyond their web form ...
<wpwrak>
if we get really a LOT of interest, we could consider manufacturing our own parts. but that would be a big step towards more work and complexity. so it would require a massive increase of supporters and also some organizational changes.
<wpwrak>
so i'd consider that more something of the "for further study for a future project" kind
<Arch-TK>
wpwrak: I see
<Arch-TK>
wpwrak: What's this "plan B"
<wpwrak>
the "plan B" was about the possibility of giving volume discounts in the course of a crowdfunding campaign
<wpwrak>
plan A would be to just lower the cost, but KS said that don't support that (though may think about it in the future)
<Arch-TK>
I see
<wpwrak>
plan B would be to add perks with identical content but a lower price. in KS, you can't modify existing perks but add new perks during the campaign.
<wpwrak>
but i'd consider than plan B too messy. we should try to keep things simple :)
<Wizzup>
wrt paypal - they cannot hold onto the funds forever, right? either they'll have to give it back to the people who paid, or they'll have to give it to neo900
<wpwrak>
plan C would be to add "stretch goals". but that's kinda tricky, too. we defintely wouldn't want to add things that cause a lot more work. and adding some innocent-looking gimmick can very quickly spin out of control.
<Arch-TK>
Wizzup: that's the hope
<wpwrak>
Wizzup: hard to tell what they can really do. their conditions say basically that they can hold things as long as they feel it necessary
<Arch-TK>
the expectation is that paypal will just stick their middle finger up though
<Arch-TK>
hope for the best, expect the worst
<Wizzup>
That's really odd. They don't own the money
<Arch-TK>
Wizzup: They're keeping the money for "the wellbeing of their valued customers"
<wpwrak>
Wizzup: there are of course limits where it would be hard for them to justify sitting on funds if, say, challenged in court
<enyc>
wpwrak: accoridng ot DocScrutinizer he was arranigng who else can work on this while he's not here =)
<enyc>
wpwrak: but those others are not-so-IRC-channel-people or somesuch
<wpwrak>
enyc: "this" being paypal ? or crowdfunding planning ? or just things in general ?
<wpwrak>
in general, i'm the holiday replacement. but i don't have access to everything and if paypal would contact joerg, i may not see that (depends on whether they honor the Cc: in the mails he sent)
<Wizzup>
wpwrak: right, but going to court is costly
<wpwrak>
Wizzup: yes, not really an option. but PP may act as if that was an option, and not try to do even more absurdly excessive things with what their terms and conditions grants them
<wpwrak>
i.e., they can't be sure that we wouldn't go to court. so they wouldn't want to move to a point where their case would be extremely weak.
<wpwrak>
so there is hope that they may see reason. especially if they get more mails from customers urging them to just release their payments and stop that reserve nonsense
<Arch-TK>
the problem with the emails is that whoever they're getting to doesn't seem to actually have access to the information about the reserve
<Arch-TK>
or whoever is getting their emails is playing dumb
<Arch-TK>
The responses so far seem to be "oh, they totes got your monies, we know nothing about any reserve dawg"
<wpwrak>
i would guess that at some point such things get escalated to someone with a broader view
<Arch-TK>
"If you have an issue with the seller, you can open a dispute.
<wpwrak>
but yes, the first line of support is basically just cannon fodder
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<enyc>
wpwrak: thinks in general =)
<enyc>
wpwrak: i'm PP customer but not in this contexts....
<Arch-TK>
companies in general
<Arch-TK>
I dislike almost all of them
<enyc>
=)
<Arch-TK>
Focus only on money
<Arch-TK>
Sure that might be "the purpose of a company"
<Arch-TK>
But that doesn't excuse the hostile money grabbing that they usually do.
<wpwrak>
well, if it was that. but what PP are doing here is basically just harmful for everyone involved. i don't think they're actually making money with this either, even if they pocket interest.
<wpwrak>
so, one could call it a case of corporate vandalism. after the neoliberals come the neovandals. soon, we'll get the neolithics ;-)
<Arch-TK>
the neoliberatzis
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<enyc>
wpwrak: so, wheres' ntthe stor bout extra crowdfunding you mention now?
<Arch-TK>
wpwrak: the obvious solution: Don't make a kickstarter for a phone, make a kickstarter for a potato salad
<Arch-TK>
If the internet is anything to go by, you'll get a lot more funding
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<wpwrak>
enyc: please unscramble :)
<wpwrak>
Arch-TK: maybe a video of cats preparing potato salad …
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<Arch-TK>
a video of cats preparing potato salad, sure
<enyc>
wpwrak: err... wheres' the story / neo900 article / FSO thread / etc. about the neo900-crowdfunding you mentioned ?
<wpwrak>
enyc: oh, there's no story yet. for now it's just an idea. we first need to draft a campaign style and strategy, then see how the numbers work, etc. and only then we'll know if and how it makes sense.
<wpwrak>
i'll do that drafting while joerg is away. when he's back we'll discuss what i've come up with. and only if it looks like making sense at all, then this would become a proper story / thread / etc.
<wpwrak>
the general idea has been suggested on tmo in the past, but not without much detail. so this is the next step, take the skeletal idea and add a bit of meat.
<enyc>
wpwrak: i see =)
<enyc>
wpwrak: definitely 'how that is pitched' is very important, who its' aimed at etc.
<enyc>
wpwrak: some will be more interested in combination of device *and* software for better-privacy-phone etc... all nice puzzle =)
<wpwrak>
yes, getting the right message to the right people is important. also since we don't need extreme numbers of backers.
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<enyc>
wpwrak: nodsnods ok =)
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<enyc>
wpwrak: agree totally about the 'stretch goals' -- aka 'feature creep' or 'featuritis'
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<wpwrak>
sigh. upgraded ubuntu. now the problems begin ... no copy & paste, no chromium, no mplayer, ... :(
<amatus>
it was a trap
<wpwrak>
i have a weird mouse that needs xbindkeys for the middle mouse button. that one breaks every now and then. ubuntu also likes to delete mplayer when upgrading, so that's not entirely unexpected either. i didn't see the chromium trouble coming, though.
<wpwrak>
on the good side, multi-headed X11 is fine. that used to break on even the slightest system change.
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<enyc>
wpwrak: ooi what do you find mplayer useful for ?
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<wpwrak>
i'm used to it and i like the user interface. dunno what else i'd miss when using one of the others, since i use mplayer almost exclusively.
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<Wizzup>
wpwrak: mpv? firefox?:)
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<ravelo>
Maybe you did not notice: Nikolaus from golden delicious plans to build some new gta04a5 boards and complete devices. They could already finish in February.
<ravelo>
Might also be of interest here, ....
<enyc>
ravelo: did not notice but fair enough...
<enyc>
ravelo: still wonder what help will help neo900 to comp to next complete board in usable state
<ravelo>
enyc: anyway this is in very small quantities.
<ravelo>
To comp
<ravelo>
0
<ravelo>
To comp=to compete?
<ravelo>
enyc: Imho it's a sister project, quality much lower than neo900. But if it succeeds, also neo900 will profit from the the hard- and software-solutions because of very similiar hardware