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<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, My bank lets me throw my money in whatever black hile I like
<DocScrutinizer05> hole even
<DocScrutinizer05> as long as it's under the money laundering threshold
<DocScrutinizer05> CC payments are another story
<wpwrak> "just say no to nanny banks" :)
<DocScrutinizer05> and about direct debit (assuming you mean "bankeinzug"), it's actually not possible to cancel that when you gave an explicit qualified withdrawal permission. Just like you can't call back money transfers
<DocScrutinizer05> which makes me kinda nervous, regarding what PP could do to a bank account
<wpwrak> if you've granted a permission, maybe cancel it ?
<saper> paypal is not using any "qualified withdrawal permission"
<saper> you should be nervous about anybody knowing your bank account #, not just PP
<saper> Einer SEPA-Basislastschrift kann innerhalb von acht Wochen nach Kontobelastung widersprochen werden, so dass der Belastungsbetrag wieder gutgeschrieben wird.
<wpwrak> saper: i think joerg can do the standard SEPA revocations by now in his sleep. blindfolded. with both hands tied between his back. and the PC in a different room.
<saper> :)
<DocScrutinizer05> saper: honestly, no news you're telling
<ZetaR1> Paypal isn't a bank, it's a money transmitter (under many US state laws, anyway). AFAICT, they aren't allowed to hold funds like they are doing.
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<DocScrutinizer05> btw "eight weeks" is some semi-hoax by the banks, actually rollback of *illegal* SEPA withdrawals are not time-limited at all
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: yes. That's allegedly also the reason why they must not and thus do not offer interest
<ZetaR> In my state (Florida), they are allowed to hold funds for up to 10 days.
<DocScrutinizer05> there's also no "einkagensicherung" at PayPal
<ZetaR> business days*
<DocScrutinizer05> Einlagensicherung
<DocScrutinizer05> (insurance against PP bankruptcy)
<DocScrutinizer05> so actually PP was in for protection by reserve on their own account according to PPs own rules
<ZetaR> There are a number of places (at least in the US) that have local laws which would require Paypal to make the funds available to you.
<ZetaR> The page I linked to has the hold period, a link to the state code, and contact information for the agency that regulates money transmitters in that state..
<ZetaR> Might be an option if negotiation fails.
<ZetaR> Paypal's US state licenses: https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/licenses
<saper> ZetaR: 404 in Europe ^^ ;:)
<saper> German https://www.paypal.com/de/webapps/mpp/about says they are a "credit institution" in Luxembourg, regulated, but exempt from deposit guarantees
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<ZetaR> saper: which one gives 404? the paypal.com link?
<wpwrak> works from .ar
<ZetaR> Try using a proxy. I got it to work from Startpage's proxy.
<ZetaR> Stupid dynamic content.
<ZetaR> Why don't people like plain HTML/CSS anymore?
<wpwrak> why make it simple and robust when it can be fancy and unreliable ? :)
<ZetaR> wpwrak: Do you use Noscript/Requestpolicy? I am often amazed and the tangled mess of nested JS dependencies that many sites have.
<ZetaR> The higher profile ones have literally dozens, if not a hundred domains they are using scripts from.
<wpwrak> ZetaR: no, i don't use any overly aggressive web perversion suppression. note: that paypal link works for me. it was saper who mentioned "404"
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<wpwrak> ZetaR: (lots of scripts) you mean for ads and tracking ? yeah, i keep a lush /etc/hosts for that ...
<ZetaR> wpwrak: IMO you really need at least a whitelist for the modern web, preferably whitelist + blacklist + behavior based blocking.
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<wpwrak> what i have seems to work well enough so far. when a site slows to a crawl because the advertizers get too greedy, i toss them into /etc/hosts (as 127.0.0.1, of course). that keeps things bearable.
<wpwrak> plus, it works across all browsers
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<Oksana> Is it possible to put "none" instead of "127.0.0.1" into /etc/hosts ? So that it would not even try to resolve them?
<wpwrak> heh, that would be a fun feature :)
<wpwrak> make it [fail], so it's not a valid host name
<wpwrak> would make a nice april 1st I-D, as update to RFC952 (with a nod to RFC1123)
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<DocScrutinizer05> ok, now I need to ask you all to send a email to paypal, ideally with conent similar to the fine template edwin provided in https://paste.debian.net/hidden/7489ac0f/
<DocScrutinizer05> my lawyer sent a Fax to PayPal, but she didn't comment on the emails, so I think there can't be much wrong with them, and for sure it will help PayPal to learn a lot of our customers consider Neo900 UG a crowdfunding based project and want their payment released to the company
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<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: what exactly means " *NEO900UGHAF, <NUMBER> GBR;"
<DocScrutinizer05> whe have a hard time parsing/understanding the "<number> GBR" part
<DocScrutinizer05> we*
<DocScrutinizer05> note that we have no PP payment to Neo900 UG from our own PP account for reference
<edwin> it is what I got on my b ank statement
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh on BANK statement, we should refer to PP account
<edwin> on paypal account I got the unique transaction #
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks :-)
<edwin> Jun 23, 2015 00:28:44 PDT | Transaction ID: 9WJ09157XN335531Y
<edwin> something like that
<saper> wpwrak: I am using privoxy to filter out ads and switch to tor when needed, unfortunately the whole "HTTPS everywhere" trend is against me
<DocScrutinizer05> also doesn't PP regularly send a "payment notification" email?
<edwin> I got the receipt
<edwin> Receipt for Your Payment to Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, that one :-)
<edwin> it has the transaction id too
<edwin> or if you go to account history and expand the range
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess we can consider this a common denominator for all customers paying with PP
<edwin> quoting that GBR thing from the bank statement is probably not needed
<edwin> mind you I didn't get any reply (besides the automated one) from paypal yet
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<edwin> the automated reply is something like Questions About Your Payment Status VV44REXGE (KMM88672945V60476L0KM) :ppEU
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, that's a standard reply
<DocScrutinizer05> does this look OK to you?
<edwin> yeah, but then I'm not very good at spotting typos
<DocScrutinizer05> (added red to variable "<paypal email addr>")
<edwin> you post that to tmo or the neo900 blog?
<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: no problem with typos, we have our spellcheckers for this :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> tmo
<edwin> might be useful to post a link to TMO as well
<edwin> err from the uBlog to TMO
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, we need additional action to make this public
<DocScrutinizer05> prolly even send an email to all our customers
<timclassic> DocScrutinizer: I haven't followed this issue completely here in IRC--should we each check our payments?
<DocScrutinizer05> not much use in "checking", they will all be "completed" status. However please send a mail to PP when you did a PP payment to Neo900 UG during last 8 months
* timclassic is reading the thread...
<DocScrutinizer05> timclassic: start at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1484790#post1484790
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<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: I hate PayPal
<timclassic> So they're holding on to everything?
<DocScrutinizer05> I feel with you
<DocScrutinizer05> basically yes
<timclassic> I will send the templated email, for sure
<DocScrutinizer05> :-) ta
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I again f´did that nasty habit to update a few details after posting to tmo, so please refresh
<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: To your knowledge, is there a specific address at PayPal I should use?
<DocScrutinizer05> "f'"?
<DocScrutinizer05> timclassic: ^^^ :-)
<timclassic> Oh haha, did you literally just add that?
<DocScrutinizer05> we know of no specific addr other than this
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<timclassic> :)
<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: which addr you used?
<DocScrutinizer05> or - more generic - which method to send your message?
<edwin> DocScrutinizer05: the one you recommended, log in to paypal and use that send us an email form
<DocScrutinizer05> then OTOH they didn't answer. So actually we don't know of a known-good email addr so far
<DocScrutinizer05> edwin: thanks :-)
<edwin> and in fact it was a form submission so more like an internal email
<DocScrutinizer05> nasty crap
<edwin> automated reply was from webform@intl.paypal.com
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<DocScrutinizer05> HMMM From:"Europeanservices@paypalDOTcom" <europeanservices@paypal DOT com>
<timclassic> There are three drop-downs -- topic, sub-topic, and reason. I'm going with "Sending/Receiving Money", "Payment Status", and "Other".
<timclassic> Grr, copying and pasting the email form the template in the forum results in ... in the referenced URLs.
<timclassic> s/form/from/
<DocScrutinizer05> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> lemme think
<timclassic> Fixed for my case, but others may not notice
<timclassic> Can you tell vBulletin to not create a link?
<DocScrutinizer05> err yes
<DocScrutinizer05> alas doesn't work :-/
<DocScrutinizer05> done
<edwin> DocScrutinizer05: btw I hope you didn't give Paypal access to your bank account https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1802801
<DocScrutinizer05> trick is to delete the [url][/url] tags and same time uncheck the "autonmatically detect URLs"
<DocScrutinizer05> they have access
<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: Looks good
<timclassic> I'm being a pedant
<timclassic> One more edit
* DocScrutinizer05 calls bank to block any PP withdrawals from bank account
<timclassic> There is a space in "contact@neo900 .org"
<DocScrutinizer05> that's intentional
<timclassic> Oh, okay then :)
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd hope all email clients will notice that
<DocScrutinizer05> the lowest effort spider defeating measure I could come up with
<DocScrutinizer05> tim@...: may I quote your email on tmo, after proper anonymizing?
<DocScrutinizer05> timclassic: ^^^ that's you?
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<DocScrutinizer05> of course it would be even better when a customer her/himself posts some such stuff to tmo in reply to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1485393#post1485393
<DocScrutinizer05> to help others about the very issue of webform vs decent true email
<DocScrutinizer05> we very much need some feedback about how many customers actually contacted PP
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<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: That is me, yes
<timclassic> You may quote me, and I'm happy to write my own post if you would prefer that
<timclassic> I'll have to do it in a little while, though, work has caught up with me a bit :)
<DocScrutinizer05> timclassic: I actually prefer you write your own post, quoting private emails never is a really good style - that's why I also hesitate to publish the PP email from Europeanservices@paypalDOTcom
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<DocScrutinizer05> ok, I did quote questions to contact at neo900 org a few times, after complete anonymizing
<DocScrutinizer05> however only as context to qquote our answer to them
<Kero> PP answered me: I don't need to do anything. sure, that was not the point, I want *them* to do something.
* Kero will reply once more with the original english translated to native (Dutch), perhaps then my desire will be more clear.
<bencoh> ?
<bencoh> dont they speak english?
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<Kero> of course they do, but as expected, need to maneuvre through several lines of helpdesk before someone will spend more than 3 seconds on a standard answer
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<DocScrutinizer05> wow! at least they answered :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe after >>From my PayPal account "<paypal-email-addr>" I have made a payment on 2015-MM-DD (charged on 2015-MM-DD) to Neo900 UG: Amount <Value Euros>; Unique Transaction #<17ALPHANUMERIC>.<< we should add a sentence like >>PayPal decided to freeze that money in a "Reserve" on the recipients account, to protect my rights against any risks<<
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<DocScrutinizer05> done
<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: I ended up getting an automated response from PayPal, probably based on the topic/sub-topic chosen. "Thanks for your email. Based on your selection, we are sending you some details about payment statuses. If you require additional information, please reply to this message or contact us at 1-888-221-1161." Then a huge list of bullet points.
<DocScrutinizer05> first line of defense :-)
<timclassic> DocScrutinizer05: I Bcc'd you on my response, so you should see their response as well.
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks :D
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<Kero> unsure my response to PP from the web page made it. Even though my privacy plugins indicate I have all the content, layout is so terrible that I cannot see much. Will keep an eye on it.
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