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<Oksana> Reading "wall of text" news update on the website. Provides good background information for those who haven't seen the project before.
<Oksana> >> We sourced all the N900 units for the Neo900 pre-orders. << Great to hear
<Oksana> As for kickstarter... Make it clear that it is for increasing publicity and attracting new customers, because some people are already complaining about "money sinkhole"
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, I was very much taken by surpirse when the idea came up that the kickstarter was targeted at existing customers
<Joerg-Neo900> of course it's not
* Oksana also hopes that "2% monthly interest from original donation" works, because it sounds like a very generous bank
<Joerg-Neo900> it's one of the reasons we need more preorders
<Oksana> Existing customers should remember that 2% interest rate ^ Not like it will be much use for new customers
<Joerg-Neo900> it's not even offered to new customers any more
<Oksana> Okay
<Oksana> With release planned for Q3/2017, new customers should not have any complaints anyway
<Joerg-Neo900> but we offered it to our early supporters and we will always try to stand to our word
<Joerg-Neo900> hmm, Q3 getting unrealistic
<Oksana> Currency exchange rates can be annoying
<Joerg-Neo900> indeed
<Oksana> Well then, Christmas holidays 2017
<Joerg-Neo900> I finally learned to refuse giving any fortune telling about the future
<Oksana> I guess so
<Oksana> Better late than never, though
<Joerg-Neo900> even when it's clearly tagged as "planned" (and also obsolete meanwhile), it still feels like a promise I can't keep
<Joerg-Neo900> I hate giving promises I can't keep
* Oksana is currently pondering the possibility of making a future-proof "mobile" by putting all wireless technologies into USB sticks; bulky, but avoids "planned obsolescence" currently being suffered by 2G devices
<Oksana> Like, 3G is currently commonly used, 4G is currently in existence, 5G is being planned, when will 3G devices become obsolete?
<Joerg-Neo900> maybe better wording needed, like "Today, the 28th of july, I hope that things would develop like: another 4 weeks for layout, 1 week for PCB making, 3 days for popilating, ...."
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, USB would probably be a great hardware interface for such project
<Oksana> If you have personal time-plan, feel free to publish it on a page on website ;-) As long as it doesn't eat too much time
<Oksana> Problem with USB sticks is, their size it unpredictable to the point of interfering with each other if ports are close to each other.
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<Oksana> Also, USB ports are generally designed to have sticks outside the device, like tree branches, which welcomes damage.
<Joerg-Neo900> there's clearly no specified formfactor at all for USB sticks
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<Joerg-Neo900> yes, you need to have a bay of sorts, for the sticks of unknown size
<Oksana> Another possibility is several microSDIO ports, because there is an Internet rumour of wireless microSDIO cards, like NFC and WiFi
<Joerg-Neo900> this been a reason why U didn't get a TI Zoom-II btw, and instead waited for N900. The SD card of Zoom would protrude out of the device a 10 or 15 mm
<Joerg-Neo900> s/ U / I /
<Joerg-Neo900> you hardly can get decent WIFI or WWAN cards in uSD formfactor. Reason: antennas
<Joerg-Neo900> for WWAN also mere physics introduced by a 2W transmitter
<Joerg-Neo900> would fry your uSD
<Joerg-Neo900> and power supply for uSD cards never can handle the surges a modem transmitter causes. So far no capacitors of sufficient capacity could fit into a uSD either, prolly not even a standard SD card
<Joerg-Neo900> standard SD card formfactor WLAN cards are readily available
<Oksana> Okay, so WiFi card would better be in SD form-factor, not microSD. What good things would be able to fit into microSDIO card then? /besides ordinary file storage/ Sensors probably?
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<Joerg-Neo900> and ephemeral aka RAM 'storage'
<Joerg-Neo900> which would be slow compared to ragular RAM but magnitudes faster than usual flash memory
<Joerg-Neo900> so ideal for swap for example
<Joerg-Neo900> alas no such thing seems to exist
<Oksana> Also, if [micro]SD cards increase their size (like, 64GB, 128GB, TB, and so on...), what's the best method to plan for it? Because the same SD card reader might have a limit on how large a card it can support?
<Oksana> Somebody tried to have optical-disk-RAM, long ago
<Oksana> And USB ports apparently change shape (and speed) with time
<Joerg-Neo900> I *think* the protocol used for communication to SD cards has no hard limit for the max size it can handle
<Joerg-Neo900> they invented UHD-2 or what's the name, with additional contacts on SD, to increase speed
<Joerg-Neo900> I think UHD will stay for a while, like next 5 to 10 years
<Joerg-Neo900> also seems like until now N900 can support all existing uSD sizes
<Joerg-Neo900> 256GV yet to get verified, I don't feel like getting one of those critters
<Joerg-Neo900> GB*
<Joerg-Neo900> but since it works for 128GB, I'd guess it works for 256 too
<Oksana> SDXC : exFAT mandatory. SDHC : FAT (usually or mandatory?). SDSC : don't see any limits, high-speed bus mode sounds nice. UHS : sounds very nice, faster, consumes less power, less EMI.
<Joerg-Neo900> exFAT is the FS, not the interface
<Joerg-Neo900> you prolly will reformat it to eext4 or whatever anyway :-)
<Oksana> Possible to reformat, yes, though it is possible that its internal anti-wear algorithms assume FAT, and SD card formatted with other file system might wear out faster?
<Oksana> SDIO cards: WiFi, NFC/RFID, GPS/GLONASS, FM, Bluetooth, even modem. Competitor:
<Joerg-Neo900> yes@possible
<Joerg-Neo900> CF?
<Joerg-Neo900> "CompactFlash" vs "MultiMediaCard"
<Joerg-Neo900> aah sorry, "Competitor:" - missed that
<Joerg-Neo900> well not really a competitor
<Joerg-Neo900> it's more like an Oreos compared to a leaf of bread
<Joerg-Neo900> what the heck? I thought SD and MMC had same formfactor and even compatibility except for the "Secure" bit
<Joerg-Neo900> SDIO cards with special functions often have the same issue like USB sticks, see for example
<Oksana> Yes, I though so from "barcode reader" functionality.
<Oksana> s/thought/thought/
* Oksana will think on it later; there are many memory cards, but only SDIO and CompactFlash support such wireless things, capabilities and power consumption would be an interesting question
<Joerg-Neo900> when looking into cards, you want instead of CF, I guess
<Joerg-Neo900> well, maybe not, too obsolete by now
<Joerg-Neo900> CFexpress, hmmm
<Joerg-Neo900> it's hard to tell the future for any of those
<Joerg-Neo900> honestly, USB seems the most safe bet, though technically inferior to almost all other solutions
<Joerg-Neo900> not even SD is really guaranteed to survive for long. Given it becomes more and more unpopular at least in phones and tablets
<Joerg-Neo900> "planned obsolescence" not only in devices but more and more also in standards of all sorts, See LTE, DVB, (S)ATA, SCSII does anybody still recall what that been?
<Joerg-Neo900> I'd almost tend to call ethernet the most future-proof connection standard. RJ45 since ages, and now even learning PoE
<Joerg-Neo900> though USB also isn't that bad, you still can hook up an age-old USB kbd or mouse to a bleeding edge USB-C with a passive adapter
<Joerg-Neo900> Oksana: maybe your device wants USB3 jacks on 1...2° cable whips in that bay, soldered to the PCB on other end, so you can relocate them as needed
<Joerg-Neo900> 1...2"
<Oksana> Ethernet... Nice, yes. Good point, about relocatable whips; sounds like flex cables. CompactFlash was planned with huge storage in mind from the beginning, up to 2TB, unlike SDSC which cannot go beyond 4GB.
<Oksana> USB has no competitors, but it has very different USB shapes. USB 3 made it worse.
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<wpwrak> Joerg-Neo900: regarding the bom: the bom system for neo900 only has the block diagram as input. it doesn't operate on the kicad bom. and it would be quite a bit of work to add the data needed for operating from the kicad bom. (for anelok, which is much simpler, this took about a day)
<Joerg-Neo900> just about to write an answer to Esa, I think he's missing eeshow and docdb.out
<wpwrak> Joerg-Neo900: and i'm rather busy at the moment. and yes, eeshow and also the data from our BD-based bom can help.
<wpwrak> at least they can accelerate the manual search.
<Joerg-Neo900> I honestly wish he would rather chime in on IRC and ask interactively about any questions he has
<wpwrak> heh :)
<wpwrak> be thankful that he doesn't insist on using whatsapp for communication ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> LOL
<Joerg-Neo900> I think we must insist in him using the project specific tools, particularly eeshow
<Joerg-Neo900> he's asking for a (MS office) spreadsheet since that's what vraindead industry does usually
<Joerg-Neo900> wpwrak: how's made?
<wpwrak> manually :)
<Joerg-Neo900> ok. Completely or based on a kicad schematics compilation?
* Joerg-Neo900 is pondering to write a fanvy little sed job to augment *.sch with "datasheet" values from
<wpwrak> i think it did it completely manually. just picking names from the kicad-created BOM, then looking up the data sheets.
<Joerg-Neo900> aah so the kicad created BOM was the base for it
<wpwrak> well, it gives you component references and part values. the rest is human work :)
<Joerg-Neo900> yep, of course
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<Joerg-Neo900> atk: you around? or anybody else savvy with git? how would I modify a `git clone` to use ssh parameters like "ssh -p 12322 -i ~jr/key/id_rsa" ?
<Joerg-Neo900> particularly I know `git clone ssh://" but how to include the "-i ~jr/key/id_rsa"" part?
<crox> Joerg-Neo900, this could help:
<crox> need to connect to a remote system.
<crox> git push will use the specified command instead of ssh when they
<crox> If either of these environment variables is set then git fetch and
<crox> note that I've no experience in using it myself
<Joerg-Neo900> thanks, sounds useful
<knttl> Joerg-Neo900: maybe you would like to use the .ssh/config file? should work and is more convinient, than inputting options every time.
<Joerg-Neo900> it works but is a tad nasty to write a generic script for other users to do that
<Joerg-Neo900> it seems Esa doesn't get results with the instructions we provided so far, for using git
<Joerg-Neo900> the answer however isn'
<Joerg-Neo900> t really useful, like "still no ee/hw"
<Joerg-Neo900> so my task is to provide a script that will work no matter what, without making _any_ assumptions about the target environment :-S
<knttl> Joerg-Neo900: just send them a docker container :D
<Joerg-Neo900> the fun only starts _after_ git, when we need to provide eeshow as installable package for him
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah, that might indeed be the only feasible approach
<Joerg-Neo900> but honestly, it's a never ending task since even a docker container needs methods to download and run it on target side
<Joerg-Neo900> I doubt running a container is simpler than getting git to work
<Joerg-Neo900> it *might* be simpler than explaining how to build eeshow on target
<Joerg-Neo900> but then I hope for the community providing a install package for eeshow, as soon as we find out which IS the target platform
<Joerg-Neo900> unless we can get him to do a local build according to and
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<knttl> Joerg-Neo900: if they trust you sending them packages to insall. won't they trust you installing/configuring it remotely?
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<Joerg-Neo900> I don't know either of both
<Joerg-Neo900> I still hope for solving any issues with git clone, then get them build eeshow locally and use it
<Joerg-Neo900> unless they disclose to us what's their distro they use, and somebody will provide a semi-official package for that distro
<Joerg-Neo900> for making the latter happen, it would be mad useful if somebody would post a eeshow pull-request to the distro maintainer
<Joerg-Neo900> also fped urgently needs update
<Joerg-Neo900> so a pull request for fped also would come in handy
<Joerg-Neo900> for both HEAD is considered stable, which is the general policy with all Werner Almesberger projects
<Joerg-Neo900> so pull requests (with previous local testing) should be for "git clone" and "git clone git://" . note that for the latter the offered "downloads" packages are terribly outdated