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<xah_lee>
is there a way to have the ocaml shell support unicode?
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<xah_lee>
e.g. i type "★";;
<xah_lee>
and it gives: - : string = "\226\152\133"
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<hcarty>
xah_lee: That's what happens here
<hcarty>
# "★";;
<hcarty>
- : string = "\226\152\133"
<xah_lee>
hcarty: is there a way to get it to print a star instead?
<hcarty>
xah_lee: Not that I know of. Camomile may have some sort of support, but vanilla OCaml does not have >8bit character support as far as I know
<xah_lee>
bah. :)
<hcarty>
There was talk at last year's meeting about adding support. But I have no idea if this is happening or not.
<xah_lee>
ic.
<hcarty>
If you print it, everything comes out fine
<xah_lee>
yeah. that was great.
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<hcarty>
If you use estring or some other wide character-aware string library and write a special toplevel printer for it then you could probably get what you want
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<xah_lee>
is fun and function synonymous or something? sometimes i see fun sometimes function.
<kig>
function ... = fun x -> match x with ...
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<xah_lee>
kig: do you mean function is aliased to fun in some init file?
<kig>
it's a piece of syntax
<kig>
part of the language
<xah_lee>
ic. k
<xah_lee>
i'm a newb. for all practical purposes, one can just use either right?
<xah_lee>
... guess so.
<kig>
nno
<kig>
they do different things
<kig>
function does pattern matching
<kig>
fun does not
<xah_lee>
oh!
<xah_lee>
oh i see.
<xah_lee>
now.
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<Yoric[DT]>
I like >> and <<, have you checked that they have the correct associativity?
<bluestorm>
<< >> are what F# uses and |- -| was not very much appreciated by the theorem-proving people
<Yoric[DT]>
As for **>, why remove it?
<bluestorm>
function composition is associative so the associativity doesn't matter
<bluestorm>
**> is in the bad "direction"
<Yoric[DT]>
Ok, but what do we have as a replacement?
<Yoric[DT]>
**<
<Yoric[DT]>
?
<bluestorm>
<|
<Yoric[DT]>
It has the right direction but the wrong associativity.
<bluestorm>
yes but 1) F# <| is left-associative too 2) you can use <| and << to get the right thing
<bluestorm>
instead of f <| ff <| 2, you use f <| ff << 2
<vixey>
like finger nails on a blackboard...
<Yoric[DT]>
Which is much harder to read.
<bluestorm>
?
<Yoric[DT]>
Ok, reading is ok, but writing is more annoying.
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
sorry, f << ff <| 2 :]
<Yoric[DT]>
Example in point :)
<vixey>
is that
<bluestorm>
is f << g << h <| x so hard to read/write ?
<vixey>
f (ff 2) ?
<bluestorm>
vixey: yes
<vixey>
but f << ff <| 2 is somehow.. better?
<bluestorm>
you'll probably think it's just futzing around Haskell's ($), wich iirc you don't like very much
<Yoric[DT]>
vixey: sometimes, parenthesis help and sometimes, they obfuscate.
<vixey>
I think it's worse than ($)
<vixey>
bc. really this is designed so people can write
<vixey>
2 |> ff >> f
<bluestorm>
wich doesn't work
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah, that, too.
<Yoric[DT]>
It doesn't?
<bluestorm>
(2 |> f) >> f
<vixey>
anyway I don't understand why don't you add fixity declarations to ocaml?
<Yoric[DT]>
We will.
<Yoric[DT]>
Just not at this point.
<bluestorm>
i think it is reasonable to mirror the F# behavior and blame F# when people don't like the associativity thing
<bluestorm>
instead of doing our own incompatible bad choices
<vixey>
why don't you use F# instead of ocaml?
<mrvn>
I find f (ff 2) much easier to read. No chance of misinterpretation
<vixey>
why don't you use F# or haskell instead of turning ocaml into the next C++?
<bluestorm>
well if you don't like (<|), don't use it
<mrvn>
With f << ff <| 2 you always have to try to remember associativeness and precedence. 2 things you can guess wrong.
<mrvn>
bluestorm: The problem is other people using it
<bluestorm>
well there is nothing stopping them from using it right now
<vixey>
bluestorm, I don't buy that. When I collab. on a program I use the same idioms and the people I am with
<mrvn>
bluestorm: big difference to ocaml having them as standard operators.
<bluestorm>
well
<bluestorm>
right know in Batteries there is <| |> |- -| and **> as an alias to ... <|
<vixey>
tbh something like batteries is a great idea
<mrvn>
I find aliases even worse. go use perl.
<bluestorm>
i suggest we use <| |> << >> instead
<vixey>
it's just that writing something like that, for itsself causes it to evolve in a weird way. If you would develop batteries as you work on real programs then you would get something more natural and useful
<bluestorm>
mrvn: that's precisely why i suggest we remove **>
<bluestorm>
vixey, mrvn : would removing <| suit you ?
<mrvn>
bluestorm: I don't realy see the point in it at all.
<bluestorm>
i suppose you like function composition operators as you can write in hip point-free style, so << and >> are useful (and i doubt you can suggest much better operators, but i'm all ears)
* Yoric[DT]
leaves people who actually uses these operators do the talking.
<mrvn>
(f x) is easier to read than f <| x and not harder to type.
<bluestorm>
|> is quite widely acknowledged as useful for "pipeline-like code"
<bluestorm>
<| seems quite contentious, has associativity problem and is not as immediately useful
<vixey>
ocaml doesn't allow unicode operators so no I don't have any suggestion
<bluestorm>
and apparently you don't want (<|) to be standard
<bluestorm>
so what about |> << >> only ?
<mrvn>
what does << and >> do?
<bluestorm>
<< is function composition
<bluestorm>
and >> is reversed function composition
<mrvn>
meaning?
<bluestorm>
let (<<) f g = fun x -> f (g x)
<bluestorm>
let (>>) g f = fun x -> f (g x)
<mrvn>
so >> is only usefull to create closures.
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
that's a point of view
<bluestorm>
you can write something like
<bluestorm>
let protect transform = check_input >> transform >> check_output
<mrvn>
f << g x makes no sense, f (g x) is better. g >> f x is even worse.
<bluestorm>
yes you use << and >> when you don't make the parameters explicit
<mrvn>
bluestorm: that constructs a closure
<bluestorm>
yes.
<mrvn>
as I said
<bluestorm>
let remove x = List.filter (not << (==) x)
<bluestorm>
hm or (=) x
<bluestorm>
lunch time.
<mrvn>
bluestorm: and I find that verry hard to read
<mrvn>
let remove x = List.filter (fun y -> not (x = y)) is much easier to read
<vixey>
mrvn, apparently you're one of the few not allergic to writing lambda :p
<mrvn>
where would be the fun without it?
<mrvn>
I even get a nice lambda in xemacs :)
<vixey>
dunno but look recent language, it's like a trend to have lambda but not write it
<vixey>
recent language design*
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<Proteus>
does pycaml support python 3.0 yet?
<flux>
I wonder if it'd be feasible to steal ruby's block-syntax for ocaml's lambda functions, let remove x = List.filter (|y| x == y) would be succinct, no?
<flux>
<> actually in this case
<vixey>
hey or you could steal arcs _
<flux>
how does it work?
<vixey>
List.filter [ x = _ ]
<vixey>
:p
<flux>
behold, witness pa_hole
<mrvn>
So you want more and more aliases?
<flux>
pa_holes even
<kig>
|> is good, $ is good, . is good but the compiler clobbers it to non-good, << and >> work in F# but they will just break ocaml code and syntax colorizers because of camlp using >>, ruby's block syntax is a bit parser-unhappy
<flux>
I agree having more names for one thing is not nice. but I think it's one great feature of for example haskell that it has a very succinct syntax for lambda functions.
<flux>
"fun a ->" is nice, but not the best, imho :)
<Proteus>
does anyone know if pycaml or something similar supports python 3.0?
<flux>
also what's with the associativity of fun.. foo bar fun c -> .. won't work, you need to have foo bar (fun c -> ..)
<flux>
proteus, I doubt there is a similar library. given the status of python 3.0 (it is very recent, for example), I doubt one exists.
<flux>
proteus, I imagine the best way to make it happen is to take pycaml and make it work with py3, if it doesn't already. chances are the changes needed, if any, are very small.
<flux>
possibly you could ask the author of pycaml about this
<Proteus>
hrmm. ok
<mrvn>
flux: so? You have something against ()?
<flux>
yes. if I have a lot of functions defined that way (think continuation passing style) I end up with a line of )))). or I define operator let (@@) a b = a b
<flux>
of course, doing the latter is not much of a problem. but I don't see why fun needs to work that way. I suppose I need to read the syntax description to see that..
<flux>
just browsing chapter 6.7 Expressions doesn't give me any insight
<flux>
expr := .. | expr { argument } + | fun multiple-matching | .. and argument = expr | ..label stuff.. , so it would seem to me foo bar fun () -> 42 should work?
<flux>
but ignore fun () -> () is a syntax error.
<mrvn>
looks like it should work
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<bluestorm>
garh, i forgot about the >> problem
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<Yoric[DT]>
bluestorm, mrvn, so, what's the last word?
<mrvn>
zzgl
<mrvn>
right after Zyste
<Yoric[DT]>
ok
* Yoric[DT]
will add [val zzgl : ('a -> 'b) -> 'a -> 'b] .
<flux>
zzgl?
<mrvn>
german abbreviation for additionally.
<vixey>
]hehe
<mrvn>
well, not quite but best as I can think of
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* rwmjones_
has finally booked a hotel in grenoble ...
<rwmjones_>
is anyone going out to eat on wednesday night?
* Yoric[DT]
will probably eat in Lyon.
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah, build & install both from GODI and without seem to work.
<pierre->
hello. sorry for quite OT question, but: I would like to link '.o's (ocamlrun's, to be precise) with my library instead of libc, but I'm getting "undefined symbols". nm says that symbols are here, ld --verbose shows that ld successfully finds my .a files. how can I determine why is ld discarding these symbols?
<mrvn>
what symbol?
<pierre->
mrvn, libc's symbols like printf
<mrvn>
any versioning info on that?
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<pierre->
mrvn, ocamlrun from cvs, ld 2.18. We're cross-compiling it to mips on x86_64
<olegfink>
mrvn: as far as I understand, we're doing ld object ordering wrong. that's what we have: http://dpaste.com/115351/
<olegfink>
$(OBJS) is ocamlrun's .o's, and $(LIB), libgeneric and lib$(ARCH) are the libraries providing needed libc functionality
<vovkaii>
olegfink, what object file/archive includes your libc symbols?
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<vovkaii>
if your mips_4KC-ld is a GNU linker, an order of its arguments (objects) is important
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<olegfink>
vovkaii: libstubs.a (pure magic, but inherited without change from u-boot), libgeneric.a and libmips.a (also from u-boot)
<olegfink>
yes, this is GNU ld version 2.16.1
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<vovkaii>
try to put these archives at the end of the line of arguments
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<olegfink>
vovkaii: tried this variant, I should probably get all ld arguments permutations and systematically try that. (isn't that called scientific approach?)
<Yoric[DT]>
hcarty: ping
<vovkaii>
anyway you need to order your objects while linking correctly
<vovkaii>
and posted variant is invalid
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<olegfink>
vovkaii: yep, I believe I finally understood that bit, now only if there is a definition of 'correct' somewhere? (I think I've read some scary things about e.g. -lgcc -lc -lgcc so that everything links correctly)
<vovkaii>
olegfink: try to find it out, start from man 1 ld, hope it will be enough
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<pierre->
vovkaii, could you please explain why do you consider this variant invalid? apart from it does not work :-)
<vovkaii>
sorry, let it be in the next time, I'm a bit busy now. try to google it out ;)
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<Yoric[DT]>
New version of Batteries uploaded.
<Yoric[DT]>
Looking for testers.
<Yoric[DT]>
(there's a GODI package, too)
<mfp>
just got GODI -section 3.11 working, will try
<mfp>
Yoric[DT]: 0.20090201godi8, right?
<Yoric[DT]>
yup
<mfp>
first quasi-bug report: the desc isn't formatted correctly
<Yoric[DT]>
Gasp.
<mfp>
all the bullet points merged into 1 par
<mfp>
(... building sexplib & camomile... )
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<mfp>
ocamldoc & "time for coffee"...
<mfp>
Yoric[DT]: maybe too late to ask, but is there/would it make sense to add some (godi package) config option to avoid doc generation?
<Yoric[DT]>
mfp: well, this could still happen for the next release.
<mfp>
do you consider the GODI port part of the release?
<mfp>
(or can the port be tweaked independently)
<Yoric[DT]>
I guess it could be tweaked.
<Yoric[DT]>
I don't know how to add options, though.
* mfp
scans godi dirs to see if he can find some example to assess how hard it is
<vixey>
How do you know which version of ocaml to use to compile a program?
<Yoric[DT]>
vixey: in GODI, you mean?
<Yoric[DT]>
Otherwise, it's a matter of PATH.
<vixey>
I don't even know what GODI is
<vixey>
I just want to build this program someone wrote
* Yoric[DT]
doesn't even understand vixey's question.
<Yoric[DT]>
mfp: I'm not going to do this tonight, though.
<Yoric[DT]>
mfp: the best way would probably be to create a conf-batteries package just for this purpose.
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<mfp>
Yoric[DT]: built & installed correctly, the toplevel seems to work; anything in particular you want me to test?
* mfp
takes a look at the generated docs too
<Yoric[DT]>
mfp: nothing particular for the moment.
<Yoric[DT]>
Thanks.
* Yoric[DT]
now needs to prepare slides & demos for the DevDays.
<mfp>
docs look sane
<Yoric[DT]>
Cool :)
<mfp>
only oddity is Hashtbl.Make Extlib.ExtHashtbl.Hashtbl.S.ExceptionLess
<mfp>
instead of just Hashtbl.S.ExceptionLess
<Yoric[DT]>
Where?
<Yoric[DT]>
In the main index?
<mfp>
yep
<Yoric[DT]>
ok
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll fix this for the next release.
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<vixey>
How do locate where to get something ilke pa_ifdef.cmo?
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* Yoric[DT]
still can't understand vixey.
<mfp>
vixey: google says pa_ifdef is included in OCaml's sources, and deprecated since 3.07
<vixey>
:(
<mfp>
which doesn't mean you cannot use it, though
<vixey>
OCaml version: 3.11.0
<vixey>
Camlp4s version: 3.06
<vixey>
is a mismatch
<vixey>
and so it camlp4 3.00
<buzz0r>
Hi! Just wanted to share 2 cool links with i found today (since SWIG 3 and ocaml 3.11 dont work anymore) I found this
<bluestorm>
i don't remember when Coq V8 was released but that must have been 3.09 time
<bluestorm>
so i suppose 3.09 would be fine, and possibly 3.1x + camlp5
<vixey>
so I have caml 3.11 right now.. I guess that I will try camlp5 and then caml 3.09
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<vixey>
neither of those worked :(
<bluestorm>
hm, that's strange
<bluestorm>
are you sure the darcs repo is in a compilable state ?
<vixey>
no
<bluestorm>
vixey: i just got the darcs repo and "configure" seems quite happy with 3.10.2+camlp4
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<vixey>
aw I'm jelous
<vixey>
I spent many attempts to compile this
<bluestorm>
hm
<vixey>
I will try 3.10.2
<bluestorm>
configure is happy but "make" fails horribly
<vixey>
oh
<vixey>
yes :)
<vixey>
I've seen /that/
<bluestorm>
the camlp4-using files that failed seems camlp4-3.10-unfriendly, i'll try to install camlp5 and see
<vixey>
I tried with camlp5 and ocaml 6.11 but it didn't seem to work.. of course you may have more luck
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: pong
<Yoric[DT]>
hcarty: I was looking for testers for the new GODI package.
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Ah, ok. I'll give it a shot
<Yoric[DT]>
Thanks.
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: One request (godi may handle this): Could you alter "make uninstall" so that it also removes the docs?
<hcarty>
Or add a "make uninstall-docs" target if that seems better
<Yoric[DT]>
Ok, I'll do that.
<Yoric[DT]>
It may wait for the next release, though.
<Camarade_Tux>
does anyone know an ocaml implementation of any data structure meant for 2D/geographical data ?
<hcarty>
That's reasonable, it would just be nice to have while testing from git
<Yoric[DT]>
ok
<Yoric[DT]>
Pushed.
<hcarty>
Camarade_Tux: Of what sort?
<Camarade_Tux>
hcarty, I'd like to store openstreetmap data and I've just started looking at the different data structures (I currently know fast nothing about them)
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<hcarty>
I'm not sure of a appropriate data structures. I'm working on reading and interpreting GMT's coast and country outline data, though I haven't had much time to spend on it
<hcarty>
This is mainly for plotting purposes though, so appropriate structures may be different
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<Camarade_Tux>
my first need would actually be plotting
<Camarade_Tux>
there are two reasons I want something preserving locality : search of course, and bézier
<Camarade_Tux>
it seems R-trees are among the most appropriate, now I need to learn what they actually are...
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<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: # #man "print_endline";;
<hcarty>
# Error showing url: Operation not supported
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<Yoric[DT]>
Mmmmhhh.....
<Yoric[DT]>
That's probably a configuration problem.
<hcarty>
Everything else seems to work properly lthough
<Yoric[DT]>
What environment are you using?
<hcarty>
godi, 3.11
<Yoric[DT]>
No, I mean Linux & Gnome?
<hcarty>
Oh, yes
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<Yoric[DT]>
ok
<hcarty>
And using the godi package for section 3.11
<Yoric[DT]>
Does it work if you do #man "Standard.print_endline" ?
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<hcarty>
Same error
<Yoric[DT]>
ok
<hcarty>
#man "for programmers";; does work
<hcarty>
As does "the tutorial"
<bluestorm>
vixey: would you be interested in a patch against the darcs version ?
<vixey>
bluestorm, cool! I will have a go with it, thanks
<Yoric[DT]>
Have you installed with GODI?
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Yes
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<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: I need to go for a bit, but if there is extra testing or information I can provide please leave a message here and I'll be happy to do so
<Yoric[DT]>
thanks
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<vixey>
how do you apply the patch?
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
i applied it the dirty way but hm
<vixey>
oh by hand?
<bluestorm>
it isn't sufficient for it to work (as it is against a different version and not everything will work)
<vixey>
ok
<bluestorm>
i'm compiling know, but when it's done i can send you my darcs-generated patch
<vixey>
I think that probably Coq* wont build with a lot of work
<Camarade_Tux>
btw, about #man, how can I get it working ? I don't have any DE (and I'm too tired to look at the source)
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<bluestorm>
hm
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<Yoric[DT]>
Camarade_Tux: any what?
<bluestorm>
actually vixey the camlp4/camlp5 issues are quite easy to fix, but perhaps there are other problems
<Camarade_Tux>
Yoric[DT], any Desktop Environment, ie no gnome/kde/xfce/...
<Yoric[DT]>
Camarade_Tux: if you're using GODI, for the moment, there's no way.
<Yoric[DT]>
(should be easy to add but I don't know how to do it and I don't have time to work on this for the moment)
<Camarade_Tux>
Yoric[DT], ok, I was just wondering
<Camarade_Tux>
I'm curious : how do you get the browser currently ?
<Yoric[DT]>
For the moment, it's gnome-open...
<Camarade_Tux>
ok, it's certainly not going to run correctly here :p
<Yoric[DT]>
Well you could alias gnome-open to firefox :)
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm looking for a volunteer to write a configuration package for GODI, by the way.
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<Camarade_Tux>
if I find the time to, I need to install a whole mingw-w64 toolchain this week and start compiling for it but I really need things not to depend on gnome bits
<bluestorm>
vixey: i went on a 3.09.3 machine and everything seems to work fine quite far
<bluestorm>
i don't think it is an ocaml-version problem vixey
<vixey>
ok
<bluestorm>
i suppose 3.09 is the right version to build Coq* with
<bluestorm>
and other issues are coq-specific
<bluestorm>
(i don't know coq or why you're interested in coq* but maybe you could compile the core without all the theories and still have something useful for you ?)
<vixey>
thanks bluestorm
<Yoric[DT]>
Camarade_Tux: well, if you're willing to install Batteries without GODI, it's just the matter of changing one line.
<Yoric[DT]>
To obtain a Gnome-less Batteries, that is.
<Yoric[DT]>
(in Makefile.in, the line starting with BROWSER)
<Camarade_Tux>
I always install things by hand, ocaml is the only exception to that but I'll probably try to hack on that
<Camarade_Tux>
(and why not make it use my webkit-gtk bindings to display the help \o/ :D )