<xerxes_>
I have a general question, what is the difference between python and ocaml in the language part?
<mrvn>
python is imperative, ocaml is functional (mostly).
<xerxes_>
I think python is also functional
<mrvn>
python has only runtime types and ocaml compile time types, strict types at that
<xerxes_>
ok thats a point
* wli
would not regard Python as functional owing to the situation regarding higher-order functions.
<mrvn>
And somewhat like 90% of bugs are type errors.
<xerxes_>
ok...then I stick with ocaml....if there are only as good libraries as in python
<mrvn>
In ocaml once the code compiles it eigther work right or does something completly insane usualy.
<mrvn>
xerxes_: python is a script language, ocaml not. Different fields of use.
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<xerxes_>
isnt ocaml also scriptable?
<mrvn>
xerxes_: with enough effort everything is
<xerxes_>
thought lindows back in the days was scripted in ocaml
<zbrown>
xerxes_: batteries helps with some of those deficiencies
<mrvn>
> Printf.printf "I am a bot\n";;
* wli
generally gets into a situation very quickly where the validity of the output and/or responses to stimuli are what there is to debug vs. type errors and/or memory management errors persisting throughout the programming process and taking a while to overcome.
<mrvn>
.oO( We used to have a bot here for a while )
<mrvn>
wli: yeah, algorithmical correctness versus the code doesn't crash.
<wli>
It saves a tremendous amount of mental/intellectual overhead.
<xerxes_>
batteries looks pretty promising...
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<mrvn>
That's why I say if it compiles it works. :) I think out the algorithm and if I thought it right then it will work once it compiles usualy.
<zbrown>
xerxes_: its something thats been a long time coming (and needed)
<xerxes_>
Has anyone benchmarked ocaml 3.11 compiled with gcc 4.4?
<mrvn>
xerxes_: only installed gcc-4.4 today.
<xerxes_>
Speed is a high factor of my judgement
<wli>
It depends. If it's an easy enough problem then that holds. Otherwise I end up debugging output/response vs. runtime manipulations _and_ output/response.
<zbrown>
xerxes_: whats your target application?
<xerxes_>
well, i want to try a multiagent system...better would be a system that comiles a multiagent system :D
<zbrown>
I suspect a multi-agent system is more ideal in erlang
<xerxes_>
can you explain why?
* wli
isn't even sure what a multiagent system is.
<mrvn>
xerxes_: and no multi-core support in ocaml.
<zbrown>
xerxes_: erlang is a highly concurrent language, scales threads/actors to huge numbers
<xerxes_>
wli: think of mobile processes
<mrvn>
xerxes_: if you have a heterogen network (all the same arch) then you can pass around closures.
* wli
could've sworn he did something vaguely concurrent (albeit rather simple) in ocaml a while back, like forking or some such.
<mrvn>
wli: you can have threads. They just don't run concurrent for those parts that are in ocaml.
<mrvn>
i.e. only one thread can run ocaml code at any one time.
<wli>
It sounds like a limitation I wouldn't have had trouble with.
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<mrvn>
The only ocaml code I have that uses 100% cpu is a fractal program and that has an inner loop in C.
<zbrown>
xerxes_: essentially erlang was written with concurrency and fault tolerance in mind
<zbrown>
xerxes_: the only other language I'd consider for what you're describing is probably Scala (or Java but its inelegant)
<zbrown>
xerxes_: granted you could probably get a nice simulation using Clojure
<zbrown>
really any substantial language on the JVM woudl work well as the JVM has a very good threading model
<mrvn>
Passing agents accross the network is a serious security consideration though.
<zbrown>
true
<zbrown>
I mean it depends on your network topo
<zbrown>
is the system running on trusted network or do you need to do the necessary security models
<Alpounet>
Haskell'd be nice too
<mrvn>
I always wanted to write an agent based gui toolkit though. You write an agent for a file dialog, send it to the display and it runs there handling exposure and mouse cliks and such locally.
<Alpounet>
btw, OCaml'd have been good if my JSSP project were selected :-(
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<mrvn>
With the agent being themeable.
<zbrown>
Alpounet: ya... though haskell hurts more than the other languages to work with
<zbrown>
lol
<zbrown>
hmmmm now to decide.... ocaml via MacPorts or via Godi...
<zbrown>
so many decisions :-|
* zbrown
thinks godi might be better
<mrvn>
apt-get install ocaml
<Alpounet>
on Mac ?
<zbrown>
Alpounet: ya
<mrvn>
debian for ppc, x86 or amd64.
<zbrown>
:) I like my mac, I'll stick with it
<Alpounet>
heh
<Alpounet>
But I think he'd like to keep going on with his mac
<Alpounet>
and his Mac OS X
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<zbrown>
hmmm Godi is behind
<zbrown>
its only 3.10
<palomer>
I know!
<Alpounet>
there's a trick
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<zbrown>
xerxes_: did you catch my comments on other considerations for your multi-agent system?
<xerxes_>
yes, the concurrency is a point thats important i think
<mrvn>
xerxes_: do your agent need a lot of cpu?
<xerxes_>
well, it depends on the application...I want the agents as small as possible for my study to get a high amount of them
<zbrown>
xerxes_: If it were me, I would go with Clojure, Scala or Erlang
<Alpounet>
or Haskell
<zbrown>
probably with Erlang as my first consideration
<zbrown>
Alpounet: ya or haskell
<mrvn>
Alpounet: Is haskell multi-core?
<zbrown>
though like I said, Haskell will hurt the most
<zbrown>
mrvn: ya, Data Parallel Haskell
<Alpounet>
mrvn, yeah, quite good at it :)
<Alpounet>
good night
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<zbrown>
I've done a distributed agent system in Erlang and Scala, Erlang was nice
<palomer>
haskell's a pain unless you've written the program before in another language before
<xerxes_>
I have some experience with MAS on Java, agents with high communication skills and not ...i cant decide
<xerxes_>
haskell is not my favourity choise because of the crappy module system
<zbrown>
xerxes_: If it were me I'd implement it in Erlang, Scala, Clojure, then <whatever> as my choice of language
<xerxes_>
dont know any of these
<palomer>
xerxes_, xerxes_ of lojban fame?
<xerxes_>
what is lojban fame?
<zbrown>
xerxes_: :) erlang's not that hard to learn, its hard to get used to the easy RPC but once you've got it down its simple
<palomer>
xerxes_, were you interested in lojban before?
<zbrown>
palomer: apparently not then
<palomer>
guess not:/
<zbrown>
xerxes_: either way, if you're shopping for languages, then obviously you're willing to learns omething :)
<zbrown>
xerxes_: Erlang is good for what you describe, Scala will be a more marketable skill long term because of prevalence of JVM, Clojure is good as well due to JVM
<xerxes_>
hihi...that should be true....I know c, pascal, modula-3, some java, some python...
<xerxes_>
but ocaml looks so rocking pretty to me
<mrvn>
xerxes_: so assembler, useless, more useless, more ugly and some script language.
<xerxes_>
jepp
<zbrown>
:)
<zbrown>
I unno, I intend to use ocaml for some work with compilers/interpreters
<zbrown>
most eveyrthing else I do is in Ruby lately
<zbrown>
also been doing lisp/scheme-ish things
<xerxes_>
ruby is sooooo slow
<xerxes_>
in these days
<zbrown>
xerxes_: not really for what I do
<zbrown>
I use JRuby so its fast enough
<zbrown>
xerxes_: nevermind I'll take expressive syntax over speed any day
<xerxes_>
does anyone know, if I can use java functions in scala?
<zbrown>
xerxes_: yes, you can
<zbrown>
you can interface with pretty much any java lib through scala with little or no effort
<mrvn>
If you want touse java functions how about using java?
<xerxes_>
cool....is scala also functional?
<xerxes_>
mrvn: I like my targed application as functional as possible...i think it safes me a lot of headache
<zbrown>
xerxes_: yes, scala is functional
<xerxes_>
yipie
<zbrown>
it mixes functional and imperative styles
<zbrown>
it also has Smalltalk-like Actor objects
<xerxes_>
ok...bye you ocaml bastards ;)
<zbrown>
xerxes_: the fun thing about Scala is unlike ocaml and haskell it can infer types on inherited classes :)
<xerxes_>
that is not possible with ocaml?
<zbrown>
nope
<zbrown>
ocaml's 'object system' is well... largely unused
<mrvn>
you can have class types
<zbrown>
it gets used
<palomer>
err, I use ocaml's object system quite heavily
<palomer>
and the types of the classes I use are all infered
<xerxes_>
I thought also functional and oo is the golden path to enlightmend
<zbrown>
palomer: hmmm I need to find the paper agin, maybe I've become delusional due to exams and no sleep
<zbrown>
xerxes_: meh its all just syntax :)
<zbrown>
variations on a model
<xerxes_>
yes, but some syntax is pain in the ass for me
<xerxes_>
i dont want to go through all states just because i use an imperative language
<zbrown>
indeed
<zbrown>
I really have lost my mind :-|
<zbrown>
I hate when that happens.
<xerxes_>
hmmm....I have an idea, what about implementing ocaml on the jvm?
<zbrown>
not that I don't like ocaml, scala is just already a robust language
<zbrown>
on the jvm that is
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<xerxes_>
ok...so it seems im going to learn scala and perhaps later ocaml for zen issues
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<zbrown>
xerxes_: Programming Scala would be a good book to invest in :)
<xerxes_>
As I said, funcionality and speed was my highest concern, but there seem to be much more factors to make my superduper-MAS...
<zbrown>
xerxes_: there always are :).
<xerxes_>
ok i need to go to bed...thank you for your fingerpointing and enlighting me
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<xerxes_>
hmm...i think i dont like scala so much
<xerxes_>
the type inference is very weak
<xerxes_>
so i pray to the ocaml gods to implement multicore threads
<mrvn>
create X processes and send closures around.
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<xerxes_>
i dont know anything about closures
<mrvn>
xerxes_: functions
<xerxes_>
hm
<mrvn>
do your agents modify a global database?
<xerxes_>
no, they hang around different database systems
<mrvn>
so you have various external SQL databases?
<xerxes_>
im not even sure if it is sql
<mrvn>
doesn't most cpu time go to the databases then? You can run one agent while the others are waiting for their DBs.
<xerxes_>
well, i think like this: Type in 'world order' on your mobile phone, let the job do a computing cloud ( connecting databases and so on) and present the information on the mobile phone
<mrvn>
then you have one ocaml process on every node of the cloud all running in parallel. Isn't that enough?
<xerxes_>
the agents and their job move from my mobile phone to the cloud and back again
<xerxes_>
no i need interprocess communication at a high level
<mrvn>
if marshaling isn't enough then you need to write some more.
<xerxes_>
so one process can talk to the other 'here is just crap in the database'
<mrvn>
But the limit to a single ocaml running thread at any one time really isn't a limiting factor there.
<xerxes_>
and that should not go to the mobile phone
<xerxes_>
well, perhaps for the cloud, if the architecture is multicore...i dont know in advance
<mrvn>
xerxes_: then the db and the ocaml process will run in parallel.
<mrvn>
And the DB can probably make 3 cores busy while ocaml runs on the 4th or so.
<xerxes_>
not really, if you think as my command moving the whole cia into the cloud one process isnt adequate I think
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<xerxes_>
And its not a 1-1 relation of agent and database
<xerxes_>
possibly a database gives me good actual information so it atracts a whole crowd of agents
<xerxes_>
that crowd of agents must then share one process
<mrvn>
For your communication you can have type agent = unit -> string option let echo_agent text () = Some ("echoing " ^ text) and send Marshal.to_string (echo_agent "test test") [Marshal.Closures] over the network.
<mrvn>
You can run many agents in parallel on every node. They just can't really run at the same time in the ocaml part. They will time share.
<xerxes_>
well, that would be a possibility if i only use pure ocaml, but every agent can in principle run on a different platform other than ocaml
<xerxes_>
for that I need high level communication
<mrvn>
And if it really needs more cores run 2 servers on a node and a little proxy that distributes incoming agents between the 2.
<mrvn>
If you have different platforms then you can't have custom agents. You have to predefine some agents and a protocol to select which agent should be run and what args to use.
<mrvn>
or stick with bytecode.
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<xerxes_>
hm
<mrvn>
In bytecode you can define a toplevel and send the source for the agents across the network.
<mrvn>
And you can restrict the toplevel to only allow save operations. Deny file access for example.
<xerxes_>
ok...the solution you offer reminds me alot of jocaml
<xerxes_>
but the simple scalability issue and the high level communication is still a lack
<mrvn>
A few days ago we had a ocaml bot in here. You could just type '> ocaml code;;' and it would run it. That is basically what your agents need.
<xerxes_>
interessting
<xerxes_>
moving just the ocaml source for the agent job sounds promising
<mrvn>
You can even move the source once and then just call it again and again with different args.
<xerxes_>
ok i think i try that...that is a possible solution i havent thought about
<xerxes_>
so every agent is simply just a sort of restricted toploop
<xerxes_>
makes sence to me
<mrvn>
the agents run in a restricted toploop.
<mrvn>
you can run multiple in the same toplevel. They can share variables and such.
<mrvn>
Or you fork a new one for every agent if you like.
<xerxes_>
interesting
<xerxes_>
aw there is an ocaml version with xml appendix, right?
<xerxes_>
ok ...i make up my mind and come back tomorrow...thanx alot mate
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<robocop>
How, I understand, token is a type of the implementation of ocamlyacc...
<robocop>
so, I can't use it.
<robocop>
sorry for the question.
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<gildor>
a bientot
<Alpounet>
?
<robocop>
mauvais fenêtre je crois :D
<gildor>
yes, browsing the channel and recall the wrong line in irssi
<robocop>
helper.ml is a reserved name of file in ocaml ?
<robocop>
ha, no...
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi
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<zbrown>
hi
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<Camarade_Tux>
gnulib's documentation is generated through a shell script, I'm on msys and it has been running for about an hour and should run for another hour again, I'll probably never complain again about batteries' documentation generation ;)
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<thelema>
Camarade_Tux: heh. And I thought we were the worst.
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<Camarade_Tux>
well, in 30 minutes, it has done additional 20% of the documentation (that isn't even documentation, that's only a listing of the functions along with some context)
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<hcarty>
Does Batteries.Print.printf support anything to format a float value like "%.2f" does using Pervasives.Printf.printf?
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<hcarty>
The docs are unclear, and I haven't found any float examples
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<Yoric[DT]>
hcarty: I believe it does but I haven't checked myself.
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<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: According to the docs p"%.2f" should work, but it errors out here: Error: Failure: "invalid start of printing directive"
<Yoric[DT]>
what about "%(.2f)"?
<hcarty>
Error: Failure: "identifier expected"
<hcarty>
And {} gives Error: Parse error: illegal begin of ctyp
<Yoric[DT]>
:/
<Yoric[DT]>
Sorry, I don't know.
<hcarty>
Ok, thanks. I'll post to the Batteries list
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll try and be more available on the ml now that my wife has returned her PhD.
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<hcarty>
She is finished?
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<Yoric[DT]>
The PhD thesis is finished.
<Yoric[DT]>
The viva is in June.
<hcarty>
Congratulations to her, that's wonderful
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<Alpounet>
brb
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<hcarty>
thelema: It adds support for creating foo.inferred.mli from foo.ml (ocamlbuild foo.inferred.mli)
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<hcarty>
The diff comes from a different repository, but the myocamlbuild.ml come directly from Batteries
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<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: A Batteries example myocamlbuild.ml patch to allow creating foo.inferred.mli from foo.mli from foo.ml using ocamlbuild : http://ocaml.pastebin.com/m7feb8fd5
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Thoughts? Do you think that this is a worthwhile addition?
<Yoric[DT]>
How does it work?
<mrvn>
hcarty: can you declare types rivatesomehow so the infered.mli shows them abstract or not at all?
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<mrvn>
s/rivate/private /
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: ocamlbuild foo.inferred.mli
<hcarty>
It's ocamlbuild's support for "ocaml -i"
<Yoric[DT]>
Now, what I mean is: what does it do, exactly?
<Yoric[DT]>
Ah, ok.
<Yoric[DT]>
I thought ocamlbuild could do this out-of-the-box?
<mrvn>
hcarty: why go through foo.mli?
<hcarty>
But without the above changes, the findlib and camlp4 goodies will not be applied. So if any non-stdlib packages or syntax is used then it won't work.
<hcarty>
mrvn: I don't understand the question?
<Yoric[DT]>
Are you sure?
<mrvn>
hcarty: you said foo.inferred.mli from foo.mli from foo.ml?
<mrvn>
why the middle step?
<hcarty>
mrvn: Oops!
<hcarty>
Sorry, that was a mistype
<hcarty>
foo.inferred.mli from foo.ml
<mrvn>
hcarty: not foo.inferred.mli from foo.mli or foo.ml?
<hcarty>
where "ocamlbuild foo.inferred.mli" = "ocaml -i foo.ml"
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Yes, I've tried
<hcarty>
Both with Batteries and with non-Batteries myocamlbuild.ml files
<hcarty>
mrvn: No special processing is done beyond the inferred interface. So I don't know that it would make sense to create a .inferred.mli from a .mli since there is nothing to infer
<mrvn>
hcarty: But if someone does create inferred.mli and there happens to be an .mli then it should reuse that.
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<hcarty>
mrvn: Does "ocamlc -i foo.ml" reuse foo.mli?
<hcarty>
mrvn: I think that's what "ocamlbuild foo.inferred.mli" uses to create the .mli
<hcarty>
mrvn: I agree that such a tool would be useful. automli may do something along those lines
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<hcarty>
And my mistake... I wrote "ocaml -i" rather than "ocamlc -i" for most of the examples above
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<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Do you think the myocamlbuild.ml change is worth adding to Batteries? Or would you prefer that I send it to the mailing list for comments?
<Yoric[DT]>
I believe that it can be useful.
<Yoric[DT]>
Still, given my current state of tiredness, you should rather post it to the mailing-list.
<hcarty>
Yoric[DT]: Will do, thanks. Probably tomorrow though, as I am off for the evening.
* Yoric[DT]
will need some serious sleep-catching in the next few days.
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