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<travisbrady>
#scheme
<travisbrady>
woops
<Alpounet>
evil
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<jeff_s_>
WTB untyped ML
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<noah___>
hey everyone, i'm brand new to ocaml, and i'm trying to get it working with some libraries on gentoo (specifically extlib)
<noah___>
i have tried emerging extlib
<noah___>
but then, when i try "open Std", e.g.
<noah___>
i get back "Unbound module Std"
<noah___>
i've also tried with ocamlfind
<noah___>
using ocamlfind install extlib *, when my working directory is the untarred extlib directory
<julm>
[ocamlfind query extlib] works?
<noah___>
yep... it retuns "/usr/lib/ocaml/site-packages/extlib"
<julm>
then add the flag [-package extlib] in your ocamlfind commands to compile
<thelema>
probably a compilation problem. I wish I was better at compiling manually with ocamlfind - I just use ocamlbuild, and copy magical _tags and myocamlbuild.ml files in
<thelema>
julm: that's it?
<julm>
thelema: what ?
<thelema>
julm: [-package extlib]?
<julm>
well, to use extlib it is
<noah___>
is there anyway to use extlib in the top loop?
<thelema>
noah___: check if gentoo has an emerge for batteries included - it's extlib-plus, and includes a toplevel enabling all its extensions
<julm>
well, find a way to make ocamlbuild to look for extLib.cmxa not extlib.cmxa
<julm>
probably the -lib flag
<julm>
to change
<julm>
but I've never used ocamlbuild
<noah___>
haha, wow, that does it
<noah___>
i guess you make this stuff look easy. out of curiosity, what tools do you use?
<julm>
make :P
<julm>
with a Makefile
<noah___>
and emacs?
<julm>
Vim
<julm>
but, for a beginner ocamlbuild should be the way to go
<julm>
I think
<noah___>
ok, i'll keep working with it then. thank you so much
<julm>
I've just start to learn OCAML when ocamlbuild did not exist and never feel the need to use it
<julm>
started*
<noah___>
sometimes i think that is the better way to go, as you really learn the ins and outs without any abstraction. but ocaml seems like it is really a hard language to get up and running (at least compared to python, c, c++, and php, which are all ive worked with really)
<noah___>
well and java
<julm>
yup, you're certainly right
* julm
hates OCAML with a passion.
<noah___>
hahaha
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<jeff_s_>
meh, I just ignore extlib and ocamlbuild and all that fancy stuff
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<noah___>
extlib seems really handy though. (in my newbie's opinion, it's mostly stuff that should be included to begin with)
<noah___>
i guess i just don't like the idea of reimplementing someone else's work for no reason...
<jeff_s_>
batteries includes extlib as far as I can tell
<noah___>
yeah, it looks like it on their site. i googled a bit, and it doesn't look that friendly to gentoo, so i figured i might as well stick with extlib for now
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<Yoric[DT]>
Hi.
<Yoric[DT]>
Random opinion poll: do you enjoy the ['a] notation for type variables?
<det>
No
<Yoric[DT]>
What would you prefer?
<det>
I prefer haskell style, lower case is type variable, uppercase is types
<Yoric[DT]>
Do you have a reason to prefer it?
<Yoric[DT]>
(I'm still working on the syntax of OPA, so I investigate alternatives)
<det>
less ugly
<olegfink>
I like the ability to distinguish between type constructors and datatype names.
<olegfink>
Yoric[DT]: by the way, is OPA compiled?
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: yep
<det>
olegfink, they are never used in the same context though
<olegfink>
with a compiler of its own.
<olegfink>
er, ?
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: what do you mean?
<olegfink>
yesterdat it was too late, now it's too early. do you have your own compiler?
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, we have a compiler. I don't understand what you mean by "own", though.
<olegfink>
well, from what you describe, OPA could be a cool camlp4 preprocessor. ;-)
<det>
I also prefer "option int" to "int option" although I really prefer "option(int)"
<olegfink>
det, as in revised syntax?
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: tsss :)
<Yoric[DT]>
Yes, we're writing [option(int)].
<det>
olegfink, I'm not sure how revised does it
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: just because I only described a tiny element of concrete syntax does not mean that this is not a language :)
<Yoric[DT]>
With its own type system, its own quirks, etc.
<det>
Yoric[DT], are the []s literal, or are you using them as quotes
<Yoric[DT]>
det: I'm using them as quotes.
<olegfink>
Yoric[DT]: I just said I would like to have what you described in camlp4.
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: doesn't matter, I'm hurt :)
<olegfink>
I'm so sorry.
<olegfink>
det: don't you think option(int) is a bit heavy?
<det>
nahh, I find it easier to read
<det>
I prefer that syntax for function application too
<olegfink>
is f(x,y) a binary function application or f applied to a tuple?
<det>
f applied to a tuple
<det>
comma being the infix tupling operator
<olegfink>
then how would binary application look like in your proposal?
<det>
what is binary application ?
<det>
all functions are 1 argument to 1 result
<det>
do you mean curried functions ?
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<olegfink>
you suggest no syntax for curried functions at all?
<olegfink>
so it's f(x)(y)?
<det>
I prefer tupling to currying
<det>
and yes
<olegfink>
ah, so you want all your functions to contain just one arrow.
<olegfink>
det: but should it be a guideline or language restriction
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<det>
guideline
<olegfink>
seems I'm running out of question marks today.
<det>
preventing a function from returning a closure would be terrible for a functional language
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, returning a closure can always be done by a thoughtful injection of [fun].
<olegfink>
as well as having no syntax for currying.
<olegfink>
what about (...;...)? can the use in application be distinguished from the begin ... end clause?
<det>
application would be ID LPAREN expr RPAREN
<olegfink>
hmm, no way.
<det>
being end is just LPAREN expr RPAREN
<olegfink>
yep.
<olegfink>
it's wrong even semantically: f (a;b;c) is f c
<det>
a;b;c is an expr
<det>
no problem there
<olegfink>
but I wanted f(a;b;c) to be f(a)(b)(c) in uncurried syntax
<det>
it is the same as f (let () = a in let () = b in c)
<mrvn>
olegfink: That would be f(a,b,c)
<olegfink>
in det's syntax, that's a triple.
<mrvn>
olegfink: which he somehow magically strips as functions eat arguments.
<olegfink>
no?
<olegfink>
well, you see, the real problem here is that ascii is so damn small.
<mrvn>
at least if f(a,b,c) and f(a)(b)(c) and mixed forms are to be equivalent.
<det>
olegfink, I dont understand what you mean by "magically strips as functions eat arguments"
<olegfink>
K has no character literals for that reason. :-(
<olegfink>
det: that's probably because mrvn said that.
<mrvn>
let f x = 0
<det>
sorry
<det>
I mean mrvn
<mrvn>
let g x y = f
<mrvn>
g(x,y,z) would strip x,y from the tuple and call f with the rest
<det>
that is an implementation detail
<olegfink>
that's weird.
<det>
of which SML compilers have no problem
<mrvn>
det: no. that is your syntax.
<mrvn>
olegfink: totaly.
<det>
def g(x, y) = f
<mrvn>
Having "fun (x,y,z) ->" and "function x -> function y -> function z" be equivalent is totaly strange.
<det>
g(x, y, z)
<det>
mrvn, they wouldnt be!
<det>
I wouldn't even have "function" in my syntax
<det>
function is more anonymous match
<det>
s/more/for/
<mrvn>
det: you just gave an example where they are.
<det>
mrvn, what example
<mrvn>
your f/g defines.
<det>
I dont follow
<mrvn>
g(x, y, z) is really g(x, y)(z)
<det>
no it's not
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<mrvn>
sure it is. you defined g to take 2 arguments and return f.
<det>
yes, g(x,y,z) would be a type error
<mrvn>
huh? Since when?
<det>
if g is defined as a function taking a 2-tuple
<det>
and you pass it a 3-tuple
<det>
it is obviously a type error
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<mrvn>
So one would really have to write f(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(f)(g)(h) if f is manually curried.
<det>
Yes
<det>
We discussed this last night
<det>
I am against currying
<mrvn>
don't you see how ugly that looks?
<det>
And yet every language in the world without currying doesnt have that problem
<mrvn>
det: ever used functional format strings or other function composing stuff?
<Yoric[DT]>
mrvn: that definitely looks ugly -- but it doesn't mean that there's no better syntax for it.
<det>
mrvn, give me a composing example
<mrvn>
Yoric[DT]: it is his syntax.
<det>
maybe a syntax for currying is warranted, maybe not
<Yoric[DT]>
I mean an additional syntactic sugar.
<Yoric[DT]>
For applying manually currified functions.
<mrvn>
det: let format = uInt8 $ uInt8 $ uInt16 $ int $ string(16)
<olegfink>
Yoric[DT]: I can't thing of anything sensible in ascii :-(
<det>
I mean, something that can be types into ocaml toplevel
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: well, it doesn't have to be worse than $.
<mrvn>
det: I have a more complex one that has a format composition that works for both non-blocking input and output.
<mrvn>
Without currying you can not do something like that.
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<det>
Mrvn, maybe an infix application operator in addition to id(x) syntax might be nice
<mrvn>
det: how does that change that you have to write f(a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(f)(g)(h).... for this?
<det>
let's say @ is infix application operator
<det>
f @ a @ b @ c @ d @ e @ f @ g @ h
<mrvn>
f(a @ b @ c @ d ...)?
<mrvn>
det: would let f x y = x + y f @ 1 @ 2 work?
<mrvn>
or only f @ (1,2)?
<det>
f @ (1,2) would be same as f(1,2)
<mrvn>
yes, so?
<det>
I dont know if curried function definition is really neccesary
<mrvn>
returning functions is neccessary. Or just use some imperative language.
<det>
Yes, returning function syntax might even be clearer
<mrvn>
det: that just means manual currying then
<det>
Yeah
<mrvn>
And it sucks if you use some module and the moron forgot to curry its functions.
<det>
Well, this is an example that depends on currying
<mrvn>
let list_incr x list = List.map (fun y -> y + x) list
<mrvn>
and suddenly you can't write let list_add_one = list_incr 1
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<det>
I dont mind that
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<mrvn>
det: So you write "let list_add_one list = list_incr(1, list)" and if they change the module to curried form "let list_incr x = function list -> List.map (fun y -> y + x) list" you suddenly have to rewrite your code "let list_add_one list = list_incr(1)(list)"
<mrvn>
det: that currying is transparent is a huge benefit in ocaml.
<det>
Why would they change to curried form ?
<det>
I dont see how curried is "transparent"
<det>
It is just different
<mrvn>
det: for any of the reasons one might want the curried form for.
<mrvn>
det: In ocaml the function application is the same for curried or not curried. For partial or fully applied.
<mrvn>
det: Would this work? let f x y = x y let g a b = a + b let h t = g 1 t (f g 1 2, f h 3)? Would that be (f(g, (1, 2)), f(h, 3)) or (f(g, 1, 2), f(h, 3)) in your syntax?
<det>
I dont understand the question
<det>
Are you assuming the curried functions were defined using manual currying
<mrvn>
No currying there.
<det>
let g a b = a + b
<det>
curried
<mrvn>
transalte it to your tuple syntax in your mind
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<mrvn>
And what would "f g 1" be in your syntax? f(g, (1, _))?
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<det>
# let f x y = x y
<det>
let g a b = a + b
<det>
let h t = g 1 t
<det>
(f g 1 2, f h 3);;
<det>
This function is applied to too many arguments,
<det>
maybe you forgot a `;'
<mrvn>
det: let foo = (f g 1 2, f h 3);;
<Alpounet>
of course, you're applying f to 3 args ine the first part
<Alpounet>
in*
<mrvn>
val foo : int * int = (3, 4)
<Alpounet>
erf
<Alpounet>
misread, sorry
<mrvn>
det: I think since you want no currying in your syntax it would have to be (f(g, (1, 2)) as f always takes 2 arguments.
<mrvn>
det: and "g(x,y)" and "let t = (x,y) in g(t)" have to be equivalent.
<det>
This is a really contrived example
<det>
The function parsing one made sense, and can be solved with infix application operator
<mrvn>
It is a simple case of higher level functions. The format example just takes it to its extrems.
<det>
Anyways
<det>
literal translation is:
<det>
let f(x, y) = x(y)
<det>
let g(a, b) = a + b
<det>
let h(t) = g(1, t)
<det>
let foo = f(g, (1, 2)), f(h, 3)
<mrvn>
det: and f g 1?
<mrvn>
with currying
<mrvn>
det: can that somehow use the partial application syntax g(1, _)?
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<det>
I think g needs to be curried for this to work
<flux>
man, you people are obsessed over currying and partial application :)
<mrvn>
flux: it's the only thing det suggested to be removed so far.
<flux>
well, I really, really doubt it's going to be :)
<flux>
so is this discussion about a new language that would not have it?
<det>
yes
<mrvn>
det: f((fun x -> g(x,_)), 1)?
<det>
You must curry it for it to work
<mrvn>
det: or won't you have the partial application mentioned yesterday at all?
<det>
f(fun x -> fun y -> g(x, y), 1)
<det>
partial application wont help
<det>
I mean, the syntax
<mrvn>
why? g(x,_) would return a function taking one more argument before it actually calls g.
<mrvn>
From what you described g(x,_) and fun y -> g(x, y) should be equivalent.
<det>
yeah, that would work
<det>
You're right
<mrvn>
det: have you thought about optional, default and labeled arguments?
<det>
yes
<det>
I dont care for optional
<det>
labeled is just passing a function a record
<det>
SML style
<mrvn>
well, optional is just a default with an option type
<det>
default is just functional record update
<mrvn>
g({ x = 1; y = 2; }) then
<det>
well, probably omit the {}
<det>
tuples and records would be the same thing, like SML
<mrvn>
or g {g_defaults with x = 1} in pretty
<det>
tuples just omit the labels
<mrvn>
same as in ocamls implementation.
<det>
implementation, yes
<det>
semantics, no
<mrvn>
I see no reason to handle them any different in memory so you can pass either to a function and it should not care.
<flux>
the difference rises when you first have a function without optional arguments and then modify it so that it does..
<det>
in my threoretical language, (6,7) would be equivalent to (1=6, 2=7)
<mrvn>
flux: no optional args for det.
<det>
optional can be achieved with functional record update + option types
<mrvn>
det: or (2=7,1=6)
<flux>
yeah, but that is different compared to record-based solution
<det>
mrvn, right
<mrvn>
flux: f(1,2) and f(x=1,y=2) could be totaly the same.
<det>
mrvn, I wouldn't want those to be the same
<mrvn>
and f(x=1) would be f(1, default-for-y)
<mrvn>
det: why? llabels could be optional without any change.
<flux>
mrvn, now add an optional argument in the ocaml sense, you need to midfy each call site unless you planned ahead
<det>
because f(1,2) is f(1=1, 2=2)
<det>
obvious mismatch
<mrvn>
flux: optional args is just a default with option type. f(x=Some 1)
<det>
I dont find much use for optional arguments
<det>
I prefer seperate functions
<mrvn>
det: 1 and 2 are just lables. Call them 1,2,3 or x,y,z or whatever.
<det>
mrvn, the point of labels is to match name to name
<flux>
mrvn, and if you don't want to give the optional argument?
<mrvn>
det: and if no names are given then they can be used in order of declaration.
<flux>
(for example: your code was written prior the existence of the new argument)
<mrvn>
flux: then the default of "none" is used.
<mrvn>
flux: f() would call f(x=None) basically.
<det>
flux, "1,2" is an expression in its own right
<flux>
mrvn, so there would be some kind of optional record fields that can be coerced into a record with more fields, but the missing fields get filled in with Nones?
<det>
flux, it is completely independent from d
<det>
from f*
<det>
what if you did:
<mrvn>
flux: in ocaml syntax: {function-default with x = 1; y = 2; ... }
<det>
let foo = 1,2
<det>
f(foo)
<det>
g(foo)
<det>
SML has it right IMO
<det>
- val a = {a=1, b=2};;
<det>
val a = {a=1,b=2} : {a:int, b:int}
<mrvn>
flux: In ocaml optional args are also just default values with option type. Just syntactical suggar around it.
<mrvn>
det: does SML have val b = {a with c = 3} : {a:int, b:int, c:int}?
<mrvn>
det: record prefixing
<det>
It doesnt even have functional record update
<det>
I dont know how I feel about "record prefixing"
<det>
functional record update is a must though
<mrvn>
det: class foo = object val x = 1 end class bar = object inherit foo val y = 2 end as records.
<det>
I get it, but I dont know if I'd want that in a language
<mrvn>
I miss it in ocaml.
<flux>
mrvn, but again, that will not work, unless you have written the function call of the function that will have optional arguments that way ahead!
<flux>
let f () = 42 - call sites will look like f (). add optional arguments in ocaml, call sites will still look like f (). not so if you change to a functionally updated record.
<mrvn>
flux: depends. if the optional argsare added at the end then you just have to recompile.
<mrvn>
flux: det has f(....) syntax so the compiler knows when it has all args and what optional args to add. Not trailing () needed.
<mrvn>
That would actually be one advantage.
<det>
mrvn, that is just application syntax, it is irrelevant
<mrvn>
det: type 'a foo = { x : int; y : 'a } type 'a bar = { y : int; z : 'a } type my_foo = unit foo type my_bar = unit bar foo;; just isn't the same as record prefixing.
<det>
you can do f(y) where y is a tuple
<mrvn>
det: how would that work with optional args? Not at all?
<mrvn>
default args I mean
<det>
you would need functional record update
<mrvn>
f(y) where y is a record doesn't quite work.
<det>
Module.something(Module.defaults with y=2)
<mrvn>
det: urgs, that is ugly.
<det>
yes
<det>
I dont really care for default arguments though
<det>
better to have multiple functions IMO
<mrvn>
det: do you allow overloading?
<det>
I like type classes, not C++ style overloading
<mrvn>
type classes aren't overloading.
<mrvn>
or do you mean like haskell?
<det>
like haskell, yes
<mrvn>
nm
<det>
they are a kind of overloading
<det>
if you mean: f (x:int, y:int) and f(x:int, y:int, c:string), then no I dont like that
<mrvn>
det: or f(x:int) and f(x:float)
<mrvn>
det: your case is covered by default values for args.
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<jli>
ocaml's Unix.lockf appears to use the fcntl system call. is there any chance that this will change to flock?
<mrvn>
flock() does not lock files over NFS. Use fcntl(2) instead: that does
<mrvn>
work over NFS, given a sufficiently recent version of Linux and a
<mrvn>
server which supports locking.
<mrvn>
Highly unlikely.
<kaustuv>
flock() is not POSIX
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<kaustuv>
Apparently (per otherlibs/unix/lockf.c), Unix.lockf uses lockf(3) if your C library has it. So whatever change is needed probably isn't local to OCaml.
<jli>
mrvn: kaustuv: great. thanks.
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