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<adrien_oww>
morning
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<freling>
morning
<Kakadu>
hi!
<companion_cube>
o/
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<justinfront>
is there a beginners irc or is it ok to post questions here?
<Drup>
you can ask here
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<justinfront>
I wanted to modify some code IO.nwrite ch "some text"; but trying to write svg header so it's full of characters that need escape I suspect is there a nice way to do this or do i need to add lots of \ in ?
<Drup>
before you go on : which library are you using ?
<justinfront>
I was looking at ttf in libs in haxe
<Drup>
ok
<Drup>
(do you have a direct link to the source ?)
<Drup>
but 1) I don't think you have another solution
<Drup>
2) you can put utf8 char in ocaml strings without any issues
<Drup>
(except that the length and the random access are going to be wrong, but you probably don't care)
<justinfront>
So I have text like this <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> that becomes IO.nwrite ch "<?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"utf-8\"?>\n;
<Drup>
afaik, yes
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<justinfront>
and it seems a bit messy textmate seems to be useful at spotting when stuff is not valid string but just was thinking it's messy
<Drup>
next ocaml version will have a nicer solution for that :p
<justinfront>
ok if that is correct approach that's fine can I use single quotes ?
<Drup>
single quote in a string, yes
<Drup>
single quote as string delimiter, no
<justinfront>
another question totally unrelated except in respect it concerns same code bases, is I was wondering about ocamljava. I tried setting it up but I had some issues with https://github.com/HaxeFoundation/ocamllibs/blob/master/extc/ should it be feasible to compile stuff like this with ocamljava instead of ocaml?
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<tobiasBora>
Hello,
<Drup>
I don't know ocamljava, never used it.
<tobiasBora>
I would like to know, is there a way to refer to "this" in a record ?
<dsheets>
tobiasBora, what is "in a record"?
<def-lkb>
let rec this = { … } in this
<def-lkb>
(assuming that "in a record" is when constructing a record value)
<dsheets>
is there any way to append to a row?
<tobiasBora>
For exemple, I would like to have something like let foo = {x=ref 2, f=(function () -> Printf.printf "x=%d" this.x)}
<def-lkb>
dsheets: row extension? sadly no
<bernardofpc>
tobiasBora: !this.x you mean ?
<tobiasBora>
Yes
<def-lkb>
dsheets: well you can if you have static knowledge about the rest of the row… but you can't quantify over a row variable
<justinfront>
Ok it looked quite interesting, from what I understand on pure Ocaml code you can largely just replace OCAMLOPT=ocamlopt
<justinfront>
OCAMLC=ocamlc in the make files to use ocamljava but with a complex project it seemed to fail on some bits and you don't get the java out.
<dsheets>
what def-lkb said should do it but you could make that record field mutable instead of another box
<tobiasBora>
I'm trying the solution of def-lkb
<dsheets>
def-lkb, right... that defeats the goal of having interoperable extensions
<def-lkb>
I agree :/
<dsheets>
is it label shadowing that is the problem? or just no attempts?
<def-lkb>
with objects, given the implementation, I suppose that label shadowing would indeed be a problem.
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<dsheets>
so then i tried lists of polymorphic variants...
<def-lkb>
with polymorphic variants, the type system is just not expressive enough
<dsheets>
ohhhhh
* dsheets
has ideas
<def-lkb>
yes?
<dsheets>
going to try them and report back, lest i say crazy/stupid things
<def-lkb>
:)
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<tobiasBora>
def-lkb: Thank you it works !
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<colahoh>
Couple of feature usage questions I have while learning ocaml: Why use polymorphic variants over variants? The reduction in type checking seems to be a loss and I don't see the gain. And I'm having a hard time comparing modules/functors to classes/inheritence
<companion_cube>
the gain is that you can re-use variants in several types
<companion_cube>
and they are compatible
<companion_cube>
so distinct types can overlap
<dsheets>
this means you can establish interfaces that are more like protocols around collections of token rather than specific variant types
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<dsheets>
def-lkb, exn list
<dsheets>
:-P
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<def-lkb>
dsheets: so you want open types (with the nice generalisation proposed by leo white)
<dsheets>
def-lkb, it's more than i want but i think it would let me implement extensions
<def-lkb>
but this won't offer you any static guarantee, that's of no use for me :/
<dsheets>
yes, that is the sad part
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<flux>
colahoh, one advantage is that let's say you have a function that handles variants `A and `B. and then you have a function that accepts `A, `B and `C. the second function can then be written: let handle_abc x = match x with `C -> "c" | ab -> handle_ab ab
<flux>
colahoh, and in this case all exhaustiveness checks are still valid (or actually pushed to handle_ab)
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<Drup>
unfortunalty, it doesn't work that well with abstraction
<Drup>
let f g = function `A -> "a" | foo -> g foo ;;
<Drup>
val f : (([> `A ] as 'a) -> string) -> 'a -> string
<flux>
well, how well do regular variants work in that scenario?
<Drup>
but g shouldn't need to handle 'A
<flux>
yeah, I suppose it should infer [> ] as 'a
<Drup>
as def-lkb, the type system can't express row variables
<flux>
actually hmm no
<Drup>
+said
<flux>
so it's not that polymorphic variants aren't great, but they aren't great enough ;)
<Drup>
flux: it should infer something like : ( [> a ] -> string) -> [> 'A | a] -> string ;)
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<Drup>
flux: I'm a spoiled kid when it comes to type systems, it's never enough ! :D
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<flux>
actually I just recently used polymorphic variants to great benefit. I had several classes of commands, like type g_nonmodal = [`G4 | `G10] and type g_motion = [`G0 | `G1] (codes and groups were extracted from the specification)
<flux>
but I could still put them all into one 'match' and find out for example the group of the command
<flux>
and one function for splitting them into protocol register-value-pairs
<flux>
yet there was no chance of accidentally mixing them up by putting a non-model state into a motion state variable
<flux>
although I must admit this might not look like the pretties thing on earth: ( match gm_of_reg_value (reg, value) with | #g_nonmodal as cmd -> check ews.ew_g_nonmodal { ews with ew_g_nonmodal = Some cmd } | #g_motion as cmd -> check ews.ew_g_motion { ews with ew_g_motion = Some cmd } ..
<flux>
(it looks better when it's formatted nicely, I swear ;-))
<flux>
(there are 16 such disjoint groups)
<flux>
I wonder though, maybe I could have imlemented it just as well with a map :-)
<colahoh>
flux: Thanks, that helps. I am not sure if I am sure when polymophic variants are checked for completeness vs when they aren't - I will need to consult real world ocaml again later
<def-lkb>
dsheets: actually, the label shadowing problem can be worked around by marking the explicit absence of a label from a row variable
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<dsheets>
and getting frighteningly close to opening the source
<def-lkb>
this extension was used in the exception tracking type system for ocaml described in François Pessaux's thesis
<flux>
mrvn, btw, you modeled some b-trees with gadts? was it useful?
<mrvn>
flux: still trying to complete that. I'm modeling the tree depth with a witness type.
<mrvn>
and also the key/value pairs are GADTs so I have an universal container.
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<def-lkb>
dsheets: hum… this extension should even be compatible with actual implementation, this is worth considering some hacks to get a working prototype :)
<mrvn>
flux: The idea is that the type system will garanty that all path in the tree have the same length and no space is wasted on storing the depth.
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<dsheets>
def-lkb, http://francois.pessaux.perso.sfr.fr/these.html is the landing page. any other pointers/ideas? other related work specifically for ocaml? other systems? why was pessaux's work not incorporated?
<mrvn>
flux: I've been wondering if that could be used for red/black trees too. Have the type system check the validty of rotation operations and such.
<flux>
apparently one exists for haskell using gadts and existential types, so sounds doable
<mrvn>
or make the string longer and longer till you get where it breaks and then look what changes at that point.
<def-lkb>
dsheets: he developed an alternative type system… a completely different type system over the same language, which purpose was to statically track exceptions
<def-lkb>
this meant a lot of duplication, maintenance burden, etc.
<dsheets>
oh, i see, it looked like a compiler patch but i haven't read the papers, yet
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<dsheets>
def-lkb, thanks for the info. I'll read these papers and more on row types and i'll be back
<def-lkb>
fine :)
<mrvn>
flux: can't even read that :)
<flux>
yes, pretty impenetrable :)
<mrvn>
haskell is not realy intutively readable.
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<tobiasBora>
Hi again !
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<nlucaroni>
that should be stable, if there are any problems with the head on git
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<t_m>
ok thx will try the version on the repo
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<tobiasBora>
companion_cube: I don't know it's the first time I try to program neurones... But it's true that a matrice should be better if the neuron network isn't too complex !
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<bernardofpc>
tobiasBora: unless your neurons are completely non-linear in their combination of inputs, or too different between each other *in the same layer*, you want a matrix
<bernardofpc>
if the network is too complex, either way, you will have a matrix for input on each layer
<bernardofpc>
if you think it's a "sparse graph", there's "sparse matrix" in every serious linear algebra lib
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<bernardofpc>
anyway, you should have a good reason to implement number crunshin in Ocaml
<tobiasBora>
You mean that it's possible to avoid to take lots of place when you have a matrix with lots of holl ?
<tobiasBora>
I have to go, thank you for your help, I'll try that !
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<pippijn>
I would like deriving (Show) to be able to read back the Show'd text
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