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<ggole>
Is there a way to implement sets of identitityful objects that is both sane and efficient?
<ggole>
(By identityful I mean that the criterion for whether an object is in the set is based on ==, not =.)
<def-lkb>
int counter to give uid ?
<ggole>
Mmm :/
<ggole>
That works, I guess.
<def-lkb>
the most degenerate case would be structurally equal values... in which case all functions would have linear run timed
<ggole>
Usually if you are using == there are mutable members and structural equality is problematic.
<def-lkb>
if you had a uid, you recover total ordering & hashing
<ggole>
...which strengthens the case for a uid, I suppose.
<def-lkb>
yep :)
<def-lkb>
(this is automatically done in the oo system btw)
<ggole>
Yeah, I'll do that. For some reason adding a "useless" member bothers me a bit more than it probably should.
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<hnrgrgr>
ggole: isn't Oo.id what your looking for ?
<ggole>
hnrgrgr: not for records
<ggole>
Sorry, I guess I was a bit loose with the term "object".
<hnrgrgr>
No pb.
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<gasche>
def-lkb: is your last patch motivated by Merlin? if yes, you should say so and give a pointer to the extensions you did
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<def-lkb>
gasche: no
<def-lkb>
gasche: it's just refactoring, the testsuite succeeds, there is no semantic changes
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<krono>
gasche: ping.
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<gasche>
krono: yes?
<krono>
yesterday we shortly talked and you mentioned “constructors in the sense of algebraic data types”
<krono>
what would be the best reference for this stuff?
<gasche>
that's a good question
<gasche>
if you're interested in type systems, the generic recommendation is Benjamin Pierce's TAPL book
<gasche>
but that was only a word used to denote a theoretical concern
<krono>
k
<gasche>
the fact that those are "algebraic" are of little relevance to the people that are mostly interested in the runtime aspects (compilation, execution, etc.)
<krono>
Yes, but suppose I want to write down “I expect my type system to support algebraic data types and constructors”
<krono>
what would you cite?
<gasche>
I think that is folklore
<gasche>
you don't need to cite a research paper for the "algebraic" name or the concept
<krono>
ok
<gasche>
if you're interested in history, algebraic datatypes as present in ML were introduced in the language Hope
<krono>
(yes, just read that on wikipedia :))
<krono>
thanks for your help
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<ggole>
People were encoding them into Lisp as macros quite early, I think. I seem to remember seeing Hoare writing about it.
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<gasche>
if you don't have pattern-matching, it does not count
<ggole>
It was exactly pattern matching if my memory serves
<Drup>
and if you don't use the occasion to prohibit null pointers, that count even less.
<companion_cube>
:)
<ggole>
Nonsense. Of course it isn't as good, but an intermediary step between dumb flat languages and languages with real sums is a notable advance.
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<ggole>
Found it: The COMIT Feature in Lisp II, Daniel Bobrow
<ggole>
It's strange, but it is pretty clearly pattern matching.
<ggole>
Although no algebraic types, unless you view Lisp values as such
<gasche>
Drup: unimpressed by Egison
<gasche>
a lot of energy poured into something that's not demonstrated to be a bottleneck, with a solution that does not seem better than what prolog has (or at most marginally so)
<companion_cube>
me too, but the matching is still interesting
<companion_cube>
and I find it quite different from prolog, because you combine patterns rather than writing inference rules
<gasche>
so its a specialized DSL that turns patterns into set of logic constraints
<gasche>
worthy of a Prologp4, not a new language
<gasche>
the Graph example is the most interesting one
<companion_cube>
there are also functional expressions
<companion_cube>
pattern-matching can return an infinite stream that can then be manipulated by functions
<companion_cube>
which is tough to do in prolog
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<Drup>
gasche: (I didn't linked you Egison)
<Drup>
(and I agree, it sounds like reinvention of Prolog to me)
<Drup>
(and curry reinvent prolog in a far better way, if we want to got this route)
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<tobiasBora>
Hello,
<tobiasBora>
I would like to know if there is a way to detect several key press in the same time with Ocaml
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<tobiasBora>
Because according to the doc of Graphics it seems to be the read_key function seems to deal with only one key
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<tobiasBora>
(And I need to detect when a key is released too)
<Anarchos>
Are people implementing functional languages aware of http://www.google.com/url?q=http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/50/35/29/PDF/Sinot.pdf&sa=U&ei=E9s1U8j1F-TD0QWVp4CYAQ&ved=0CBYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNGfzKIgiBEitS3e8Vz8iykxgTCtEQ ?
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<Drup>
"Since the dawn of time, ..., humans want to build efficient virtual machines"
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<adrien>
well, aren't you aware of the tunnels in south america that you can use to make computations?
<adrien>
(and communicate with aliens)
<Drup>
(on a more serious note : a thesis in french, seriously ~~)
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<Anarchos>
Drup well they must be in french when you make it in france !
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<Drup>
Is it really mandatory ? O_o
<smondet>
Drup: depends on your university
<Drup>
that's sooo bullshit >_>
<Anarchos>
Drup isn't it normal to use its mother tongue and national language to work and study ??
<mrvn>
no
<Drup>
isn't normal to use the language that makes your work available to the most people ?
<mrvn>
or the language most of the work is in
<Drup>
how does a non native french phd do ?
<mrvn>
quite well
<smondet>
If you do your phd in france, you stay 3 or 4 years, living in france that long without learning french... pretty hard
<companion_cube>
that's not the point
<adrien>
GAH
<companion_cube>
the point is that if you write the thesis in french, almost no one will be able to read it
<adrien>
we've already had that same conversation on #ocaml-fr and I don't see it ending differently
<smondet>
:)
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<companion_cube>
adrien: ^^
<Drup>
smondet: you may be able to use french for common tasks and daily life, that's quite different than writting a formal document in french
<Drup>
it's not the same level of knowledge in the language
<smondet>
well in 2009, in Toulouse, I was the first generation of phd student to be *allowed* to write up in English
<companion_cube>
especially when the audience is restricted to a few technical people around the world
<adrien>
Drup: I doubt it took you the equivalent of 4 years of daily life to learn english
<Drup>
actually, I used more than 4 years >_>
<Drup>
and I'm still terrible
<smondet>
I had to "prove" that it was necessary to write in English (i.e. one collaborator from singapore became an official advisor :) )
<smondet>
and I had to write a 30 pages summary of the thesis in french
<companion_cube>
grmbl
* companion_cube
might have to do the same
<beurks>
smondet:« living that long without learning french... pretty hard » some people manage it though
<adrien>
Drup: well, some people have difficulties :P
<smondet>
the french summary worked out pretty easily with google translate :)
<beurks>
I know some people do their best not to learn, because we're trying to force it upon them
<Drup>
adrien : and my point still old, formal french is extremly difficult, far more than formal english
<adrien>
beurks: true, especially people in the french education system
<Drup>
hold*
<beurks>
(context: "come to the MPRI, an international master with course in english on demand")
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<beurks>
(well guess what: you can ask, but some course will remain in french)
<Drup>
urk u_u'
<smondet>
but yeah a friend of mine, from Chile, had to write his phd in french
<smondet>
it's torture
<beurks>
(and some exam subjects too)
<adrien>
Drup: just like last time, I doubt it; in particular I doubt that what you think is the main meaning of a word you often use in a technical context actually has that meaning most of the time
<adrien>
i.e. you're not used to speaking english but english-of-your-field
<Drup>
absolutly, and ?
<adrien>
and I don't believe that's any good
<Drup>
and that's not the point.
<adrien>
it's another way to say "works for me" and forget about it
<adrien>
I was answering the "this makes more sense in english"
<adrien>
anyway, it's like last time, I'm tired and everything
<Drup>
I did say I was terrible in english :)
<adrien>
don't make this degenerate (gallicism), good night
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<Anarchos>
Drup french people pay for the studies that are free. French people must be able to read what students produce. That seem pretty normal to me
<Drup>
phd's are not always paid by the french government.
<adrien>
seriously, I don't understand the issue
<adrien>
PHDs are slaves
<Anarchos>
Drup almost anyway.
<adrien>
they're supposed to publish in both languages
<adrien>
at least
<adrien>
chinese would be good too
<mrvn>
Anarchos: students must speak english.
<Drup>
obviously not a phd student :)
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<Anarchos>
mrvn i am against the point of view "english everywhere in the world" :)
<companion_cube>
what do you suggest instead, for science?
<mrvn>
Anarchos: France is part of the european union. They must be able to speak english.
<companion_cube>
maybe we should use Chinese, Anarchos is right
<Anarchos>
companion_cube english if texts are for aliens, native language copy mandatory for the citizen.
<mrvn>
companion_cube: chinese != chinese
<adrien>
only if let chinese = NaN
<Drup>
Anarchos: weirdly, this though is typically french
<companion_cube>
Anarchos: ok, hire a translator and that will be fine
<adrien>
Drup: not really
<Drup>
well, it's not the case in any of the northern european country.
<Drup>
not in germany either
<companion_cube>
nor in Switzerland
<Drup>
I don't know other country as well, can't really say anything about it
<adrien>
Drup: I've seen that in germany
<Drup>
but it's only in france that's people find normal not to speak anything else than their native language
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<companion_cube>
Drup: it's also true of people in english-speaking country
<Drup>
indeed
<Drup>
but unfortunatly, they have an advantage here
<Drup>
we got to deal with their crappy language :3
<adrien>
it's not that much in france
<companion_cube>
what we're talking about now is slightly different: should technical stuff be written in the native language of the author, or in the language everyone concerned will be able to read?
<adrien>
US is way way way way worse
<Drup>
you can think of it the other way
<Drup>
if I write an article in french and I want my coworker to read it
<Drup>
I will have to translate it
<companion_cube>
heh
<Drup>
and it's a waste of time and energy
<Drup>
and I have other stuff more interesting to do
<Drup>
I did it once
<Drup>
no more.
<mrvn>
If you write it in english you can publish it worldwide. If you write it in french you are limited to france and half of canada.
<mrvn>
And it's publish or die. So why write french?
<companion_cube>
this is a bit cynical :/
<Drup>
mrvn: even without the whole "publish or die", you still may want to share your work with other people, in order to discuss it
<Anarchos>
Drup i don't speak of research paper, but of official PhD dissertation !
<Drup>
it's a research paper
<Drup>
a bit and long one
<Drup>
big*
<Drup>
there is no difference
<Anarchos>
Drup no the link i put is about a "Thèse" which is a PhD dissertation
<Drup>
yes
<Drup>
and a thesis is a big and long research paper
<companion_cube>
+1
<Drup>
it's talking about research and it's a paper.
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<Anarchos>
Drup why would you forbid french citizen to read university dissertations in their language ?
<Anarchos>
i can't understand this point of view
<Drup>
I explained why
<Drup>
and anyway
<Drup>
I don't forbid anything, they can read it in english
<Anarchos>
Drup french people doesn't know english !
<Drup>
If they don't understand english, they probably won't understand the content anyway >_>
<Anarchos>
Drup that sound very condescendant, i stop to discuss with you.
<companion_cube>
Anarchos: a french student >= master that doesn't read english shouldn't graduate
<companion_cube>
because he/she won't be able to read anything related to science
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<Drup>
Anarchos: I find it more condescendant to assume that frenchs are superior enough that they don't need to speak a language in order to share knowledge with the rest of the world :)
<companion_cube>
also, then, why forbid french people to read foreigners' dissertations (which are not in french)?
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