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<ggole> Is there a way to implement sets of identitityful objects that is both sane and efficient?
<ggole> (By identityful I mean that the criterion for whether an object is in the set is based on ==, not =.)
<def-lkb> int counter to give uid ?
<ggole> Mmm :/
<ggole> That works, I guess.
<def-lkb> the most degenerate case would be structurally equal values... in which case all functions would have linear run timed
<ggole> Usually if you are using == there are mutable members and structural equality is problematic.
<def-lkb> if you had a uid, you recover total ordering & hashing
<ggole> ...which strengthens the case for a uid, I suppose.
<def-lkb> yep :)
<def-lkb> (this is automatically done in the oo system btw)
<ggole> Yeah, I'll do that. For some reason adding a "useless" member bothers me a bit more than it probably should.
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<hnrgrgr> ggole: isn't Oo.id what your looking for ?
<ggole> hnrgrgr: not for records
<ggole> Sorry, I guess I was a bit loose with the term "object".
<hnrgrgr> No pb.
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<gasche> def-lkb: is your last patch motivated by Merlin? if yes, you should say so and give a pointer to the extensions you did
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<def-lkb> gasche: no
<def-lkb> gasche: it's just refactoring, the testsuite succeeds, there is no semantic changes
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<krono> gasche: ping.
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<gasche> krono: yes?
<krono> yesterday we shortly talked and you mentioned “constructors in the sense of algebraic data types”
<krono> what would be the best reference for this stuff?
<gasche> that's a good question
<gasche> if you're interested in type systems, the generic recommendation is Benjamin Pierce's TAPL book
<gasche> but that was only a word used to denote a theoretical concern
<krono> k
<gasche> the fact that those are "algebraic" are of little relevance to the people that are mostly interested in the runtime aspects (compilation, execution, etc.)
<krono> Yes, but suppose I want to write down “I expect my type system to support algebraic data types and constructors”
<krono> what would you cite?
<gasche> I think that is folklore
<gasche> you don't need to cite a research paper for the "algebraic" name or the concept
<krono> ok
<gasche> if you're interested in history, algebraic datatypes as present in ML were introduced in the language Hope
<krono> (yes, just read that on wikipedia :))
<krono> thanks for your help
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<ggole> People were encoding them into Lisp as macros quite early, I think. I seem to remember seeing Hoare writing about it.
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<gasche> if you don't have pattern-matching, it does not count
<ggole> It was exactly pattern matching if my memory serves
<ggole> Trying to find it now :/
<companion_cube> http://www.egison.org/ btw gasche
<Drup> and if you don't use the occasion to prohibit null pointers, that count even less.
<companion_cube> :)
<ggole> Nonsense. Of course it isn't as good, but an intermediary step between dumb flat languages and languages with real sums is a notable advance.
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<ggole> Found it: The COMIT Feature in Lisp II, Daniel Bobrow
<ggole> It's strange, but it is pretty clearly pattern matching.
<ggole> Although no algebraic types, unless you view Lisp values as such
<gasche> Drup: unimpressed by Egison
<gasche> a lot of energy poured into something that's not demonstrated to be a bottleneck, with a solution that does not seem better than what prolog has (or at most marginally so)
<gasche> I can't help finding the code in http://www.egison.org/demonstrations/poker-hands.html ugly because of all the hardcoding
<companion_cube> me too, but the matching is still interesting
<companion_cube> and I find it quite different from prolog, because you combine patterns rather than writing inference rules
<gasche> so its a specialized DSL that turns patterns into set of logic constraints
<gasche> worthy of a Prologp4, not a new language
<gasche> the Graph example is the most interesting one
<companion_cube> there are also functional expressions
<companion_cube> pattern-matching can return an infinite stream that can then be manipulated by functions
<companion_cube> which is tough to do in prolog
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<Drup> gasche: (I didn't linked you Egison)
<Drup> (and I agree, it sounds like reinvention of Prolog to me)
<Drup> (and curry reinvent prolog in a far better way, if we want to got this route)
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<tobiasBora> Hello,
<tobiasBora> I would like to know if there is a way to detect several key press in the same time with Ocaml
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<tobiasBora> Because according to the doc of Graphics it seems to be the read_key function seems to deal with only one key
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<tobiasBora> (And I need to detect when a key is released too)
<Anarchos> Are people implementing functional languages aware of http://www.google.com/url?q=http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/50/35/29/PDF/Sinot.pdf&sa=U&ei=E9s1U8j1F-TD0QWVp4CYAQ&ved=0CBYQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNGfzKIgiBEitS3e8Vz8iykxgTCtEQ ?
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<Drup> ahah, the introduction
<Drup> it's almost like a joke
<Drup> "Since the dawn of time, ..., humans want to build efficient virtual machines"
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<adrien> well, aren't you aware of the tunnels in south america that you can use to make computations?
<adrien> (and communicate with aliens)
<Drup> (on a more serious note : a thesis in french, seriously ~~)
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<Anarchos> Drup well they must be in french when you make it in france !
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<Drup> Is it really mandatory ? O_o
<smondet> Drup: depends on your university
<Drup> that's sooo bullshit >_>
<Anarchos> Drup isn't it normal to use its mother tongue and national language to work and study ??
<mrvn> no
<Drup> isn't normal to use the language that makes your work available to the most people ?
<mrvn> or the language most of the work is in
<Drup> how does a non native french phd do ?
<mrvn> quite well
<smondet> If you do your phd in france, you stay 3 or 4 years, living in france that long without learning french... pretty hard
<companion_cube> that's not the point
<adrien> GAH
<companion_cube> the point is that if you write the thesis in french, almost no one will be able to read it
<adrien> we've already had that same conversation on #ocaml-fr and I don't see it ending differently
<smondet> :)
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<companion_cube> adrien: ^^
<Drup> smondet: you may be able to use french for common tasks and daily life, that's quite different than writting a formal document in french
<Drup> it's not the same level of knowledge in the language
<smondet> well in 2009, in Toulouse, I was the first generation of phd student to be *allowed* to write up in English
<companion_cube> especially when the audience is restricted to a few technical people around the world
<adrien> Drup: I doubt it took you the equivalent of 4 years of daily life to learn english
<Drup> actually, I used more than 4 years >_>
<Drup> and I'm still terrible
<smondet> I had to "prove" that it was necessary to write in English (i.e. one collaborator from singapore became an official advisor :) )
<smondet> and I had to write a 30 pages summary of the thesis in french
<companion_cube> grmbl
* companion_cube might have to do the same
<beurks> smondet:« living that long without learning french... pretty hard » some people manage it though
<adrien> Drup: well, some people have difficulties :P
<smondet> the french summary worked out pretty easily with google translate :)
<beurks> I know some people do their best not to learn, because we're trying to force it upon them
<Drup> adrien : and my point still old, formal french is extremly difficult, far more than formal english
<adrien> beurks: true, especially people in the french education system
<Drup> hold*
<beurks> (context: "come to the MPRI, an international master with course in english on demand")
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<beurks> (well guess what: you can ask, but some course will remain in french)
<Drup> urk u_u'
<smondet> but yeah a friend of mine, from Chile, had to write his phd in french
<smondet> it's torture
<beurks> (and some exam subjects too)
<adrien> Drup: just like last time, I doubt it; in particular I doubt that what you think is the main meaning of a word you often use in a technical context actually has that meaning most of the time
<adrien> i.e. you're not used to speaking english but english-of-your-field
<Drup> absolutly, and ?
<adrien> and I don't believe that's any good
<Drup> and that's not the point.
<adrien> it's another way to say "works for me" and forget about it
<adrien> I was answering the "this makes more sense in english"
<adrien> anyway, it's like last time, I'm tired and everything
<Drup> I did say I was terrible in english :)
<adrien> don't make this degenerate (gallicism), good night
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<Anarchos> Drup french people pay for the studies that are free. French people must be able to read what students produce. That seem pretty normal to me
<Drup> phd's are not always paid by the french government.
<adrien> seriously, I don't understand the issue
<adrien> PHDs are slaves
<Anarchos> Drup almost anyway.
<adrien> they're supposed to publish in both languages
<adrien> at least
<adrien> chinese would be good too
<mrvn> Anarchos: students must speak english.
<Drup> obviously not a phd student :)
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<Anarchos> mrvn i am against the point of view "english everywhere in the world" :)
<companion_cube> what do you suggest instead, for science?
<mrvn> Anarchos: France is part of the european union. They must be able to speak english.
<companion_cube> maybe we should use Chinese, Anarchos is right
<Anarchos> companion_cube english if texts are for aliens, native language copy mandatory for the citizen.
<mrvn> companion_cube: chinese != chinese
<adrien> only if let chinese = NaN
<Drup> Anarchos: weirdly, this though is typically french
<companion_cube> Anarchos: ok, hire a translator and that will be fine
<adrien> Drup: not really
<Drup> well, it's not the case in any of the northern european country.
<Drup> not in germany either
<companion_cube> nor in Switzerland
<Drup> I don't know other country as well, can't really say anything about it
<adrien> Drup: I've seen that in germany
<Drup> but it's only in france that's people find normal not to speak anything else than their native language
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<companion_cube> Drup: it's also true of people in english-speaking country
<Drup> indeed
<Drup> but unfortunatly, they have an advantage here
<Drup> we got to deal with their crappy language :3
<adrien> it's not that much in france
<companion_cube> what we're talking about now is slightly different: should technical stuff be written in the native language of the author, or in the language everyone concerned will be able to read?
<adrien> US is way way way way worse
<Drup> you can think of it the other way
<Drup> if I write an article in french and I want my coworker to read it
<Drup> I will have to translate it
<companion_cube> heh
<Drup> and it's a waste of time and energy
<Drup> and I have other stuff more interesting to do
<Drup> I did it once
<Drup> no more.
<mrvn> If you write it in english you can publish it worldwide. If you write it in french you are limited to france and half of canada.
<mrvn> And it's publish or die. So why write french?
<companion_cube> this is a bit cynical :/
<Drup> mrvn: even without the whole "publish or die", you still may want to share your work with other people, in order to discuss it
<Anarchos> Drup i don't speak of research paper, but of official PhD dissertation !
<Drup> it's a research paper
<Drup> a bit and long one
<Drup> big*
<Drup> there is no difference
<Anarchos> Drup no the link i put is about a "Thèse" which is a PhD dissertation
<Drup> yes
<Drup> and a thesis is a big and long research paper
<companion_cube> +1
<Drup> it's talking about research and it's a paper.
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<Anarchos> Drup why would you forbid french citizen to read university dissertations in their language ?
<Anarchos> i can't understand this point of view
<Drup> I explained why
<Drup> and anyway
<Drup> I don't forbid anything, they can read it in english
<Anarchos> Drup french people doesn't know english !
<Drup> If they don't understand english, they probably won't understand the content anyway >_>
<Anarchos> Drup that sound very condescendant, i stop to discuss with you.
<companion_cube> Anarchos: a french student >= master that doesn't read english shouldn't graduate
<companion_cube> because he/she won't be able to read anything related to science
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<Drup> Anarchos: I find it more condescendant to assume that frenchs are superior enough that they don't need to speak a language in order to share knowledge with the rest of the world :)
<companion_cube> also, then, why forbid french people to read foreigners' dissertations (which are not in french)?
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