lapinou changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.01.0 announce at http://bit.ly/1851A3R | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<gambogi> hi, could someone point me to a beginner guide to imports work?
<gambogi> I've installed some modules and I'm having a hard time getting corebuild to see them
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<smondet> gambogi: give us a bit more details, please
<smondet> which package? what command line are you using
<smondet> ?
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<gambogi> I'm trying to import Std and Omd
<gambogi> both are giving me similar errors
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<smondet> you're using -package omd -package core ? or something like that?
<smondet> what's the error?
<gambogi> Error: unbound module Extlib
<gambogi> using -package flags
<smondet> ok so you're using `-package extlib`
<smondet> ?
<gambogi> yup
<smondet> isn't it ExtLib? with a capital L?
<gambogi> oh
<gambogi> ... yup that was the issue...
<gambogi> thank you for indulging my typos
<smondet> no problem
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<elfring> Would any software developer or tester like to compare the run time behaviour of current OCaml modules like "Map", "Omap" and "Hashtbl" a bit more?
<elfring> Are you interested in corresponding benchmarks?
<adrien> it should be exactly the same since Omap since to only wrap around Map
<adrien> but again
<adrien> avoid objects for now
<adrien> noone uses olabl
<adrien> so there's not even that reason to use it
<adrien> and instead you'll get error messages that are more difficult to understand
<flux> I don't think those leverage the the OCaml object system particularly well.
<flux> for example, look at the buffer interface. it is quite big. many of those could be external functions.
<flux> the impact? if you want to implement your own buffer with the same interface, you get to implement both add_substring and add_string (and others)
<adrien> from what I've seen it's really: method add = Map.add self#map
<flux> I suppose the problem I pose isn't that big, though, you can just write an adapter converting a 'small' interface into the one required by Obuffer.t..
<flux> (oh, Obuffer.c)
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<elfring> My software experiments are evolving around functional, imperative and object-oriented programming styles in OCaml ...
<flux> but in principle I do agree that some more polymorphic data structures in ocaml could do well
<flux> it's always annoying to change code from using a List to an Array or vice versa
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<flux> in particular if you have simple code that uses ('a * 'b) list as an associative container and then want to use Map in its place..
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<ygrek> why Lwt.with_timeout is defined as let with_timeout d f = Lwt.pick [timeout d; Lwt.apply f ()] and not let with_timeout d task = Lwt.pick [timeout d; task] ?
<mrvn> how would that execute task?
<ygrek> Lwt.pick waits until task is terminated
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<ygrek> the only bonus of Lwt.apply is that it catches native exn in first non-async part of f
<mrvn> ygrek: but task would already be running then
<ygrek> but the downside is heavier usage sie
<ygrek> yes, but I envision usage as with_timeout 10. (Lwt_unix write fd "dsds" 4)
<ygrek> ok, I get your answer, that explains the design
<Drup> ygrek: the task could have been running before you call timeout, so the duration would not be very precise
<Drup> (and there is the whole exception issue, which is a good enough reason, I think)
<mrvn> on the other hand one might want to later add a timeout to a running task. I guess then one use fun () -> task
<ygrek> mrvn, yes, that's what I am doing :)
<ygrek> Drup, mrvn: thanks, it makes sense now
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<neo007> hi hackers! if a newbie has some javascript programming expenrience, and now he want to hack Ocaml, which book you suggest? is it the book the functional approching to programming suitable?
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<neo007> or just the official site manual?
<Drup> Depending of your javascript experience, it's better to forget it all :3
<Drup> the official manual is useful, there is lot's of ressources on http://ocaml.org/ too
<Drup> and you can read this book https://realworldocaml.org/
<neo007> ok, thank you very much.
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<krono> hello
<krono> what is typically preferable: functions with 'a -> 'a -> 'a list -> 'a or 'a * 'a * 'a list -> 'a list ?
<adrien_oww> first one
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<krono> adrien_oww: thanks
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<ggole> Fun times: when a pattern is nested enough to end with 7 delimeters
<flux> also, 7-tuples is the best data type. it's all I ever use!
<flux> it only restricts creativity to use records :)
<Drup> that reminds me this paper http://arxiv.org/abs/math/9405205
<flux> reminds me of the idea that functions could be called with any order of arguments, as long as the types can be determined to be uniquely identifying
<flux> (uniquely even)
<Drup> one day, I will allocate a day to try to understand it, but for now, it's a bit nebulous
<flux> drup, and that is the day you get admitted to the asylum?
<Drup> I don't know, are all type theorist crazy ?
<Drup> hum, don't answer that
<ggole> flux: I wish I could solve this problem merely by introducing records -_-
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<flux> maybe you could solve them with views!
<flux> which we don't have ;)
<ggole> Abstraction over patterns would do it: I was bitching about that yesterday
<ggole> At least whinging in IRC makes an acceptable substitute
<flux> maybe whining on IRC should be formalized in the language specification
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<flux> "Instead of applying views on pattern matching, you may use this format to whine about the lack of pattern abstraction on IRC:" etc
<ggole> Sounds too constructive, possibly even helpful
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<mrvn> Use the Internet Relay Chat Whining Protocol.
<flux> IRC WhiP
<ggole> "Type some half-baked invective, press enter"?
<ggole> (Bears a suspicious resemblance to the IRC Basic Usage Protocol.)
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<michel_mno> Hi there, is there somewhere a detailed doc about the way the "caml_program" is generated ? and how to find the associated asm file ?
<companion_cube> there are compiler flags (at least for the generated assembly), but the documentation is poor afaik
<adrien_oww> michel_mno: call ocamlopt(.opt) with -S
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<ebzzry> Why do I get 'Error: http://opam.ocamlpro.com is unavailable.' when I run 'opam init'?
<Drup> which version of opam are you using ?
<ebzzry> 1.0.0
<Drup> update :)
<ebzzry> Let me work around my package manager, then.
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<ebzzry> Drup: upgrading to 1.1 fixed it. Thank you.
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<justinfront> Is Ocaml for Scientist's a good book and current? I am interested in knowing more about graphics with ocaml.
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<justinfront> I am confused about what I need to do to use let start = Unix.gettimeofday () on mac
<elfring> Would you like to point out any documentation for module interface descriptions (file type "mli")?
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<ggole> justinfront: in the toplevel? In a source file?
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<elfring> companion_cube: I am more looking for reference documentation about MLI files.
<companion_cube> it does talk about mli files
<ggole> See the manual then
<companion_cube> you should first know what a module is, and what a module signature is
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<justinfront> I saw this post http://www.peterkrantz.com/2008/hello-opengl-world-in-ocaml/#more-198 but I wanted to try another example so was trying the 3d animation here http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/visualisation/
<justinfront> but it seems to be error on me Error: No implementations provided for the following modules:
<justinfront> Unix referenced from ogldemo2.cmx
<companion_cube> what is your compiler command?
<elfring> companion_cube: I know some module capabilities already. Now I would like to look a bit more at the details for safe interface descriptions.
<companion_cube> what do you mean by "safe"?
<justinfront> at moment ocamlopt -I +lablGL lablglut.cmxa lablgl.cmxa ogldemo2.ml -o ogldemo2
<justinfront> I notice that is different do I need same name as the example?
<justinfront> will try that
<justinfront> oh wow it works!
<companion_cube> forgot unix.cma I think
<justinfront> ah ok
<justinfront> so name was not important
<companion_cube> well, the compiler complains because it cannot find "unix"
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<elfring> companion_cube: Experienced OCaml developers were trained to interpret long arrow chains in data type signatures. Other interested users (like me) might struggle a while with the notation. An alternative description style might help.
<companion_cube> hmm, you mean you don't understand the notation for types?
<companion_cube> val f : a -> b -> c -> d ?
<justinfront> the scientist book seems very expensive compared to other more recent books
<companion_cube> I don't know much about this book, honestly
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<elfring> companion_cube: I find it challenging in some situations at the moment to interpret which data type elements belong to function parameters and where an "arrow" refers to a function return type.
<companion_cube> that's very simple
<companion_cube> the last type is the return type
<companion_cube> all the previous ones are arguments
<companion_cube> a -> b -> c -> d is actually a -> (b -> (c -> d)) btw
<companion_cube> a function from a to (functions from b to (functions from c to d))
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<elfring> companion_cube: I would occasionally prefer that some function parameters are grouped together instead of decomposition into function calls with a single parameter. I guess that is the usual "fun" around the topic "Currying", isn't it?
<companion_cube> yes
<companion_cube> but the usual style in OCaml is curried functions, and you shouldn't expect people to change that ;)
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<ggole> Well, all function calls take a single parameter.
<whitequark> elfring: you can group things that are best grouped together with tuples
<whitequark> f (x, y)
<whitequark> in fact, I think this was the original motivation behind OCaml's function definition syntax, i.e.
<whitequark> let f(x, y) = x + y in ...
<whitequark> in f(1, 2)
<companion_cube> it's not that useful
<companion_cube> only good if x and y have a very good reason to be grouped together
<whitequark> yep, it just looks similar to mathematical notation, I guess
<whitequark> the usual way is currying
<ggole> That's the usual way in SML
<companion_cube> depends, sometimes mathematical notation is F_a(b)
<ggole> (And OCaml does optimise calling coventions for functions that take a single tuple, interestingly.)
<companion_cube> to denote that a "changes" less often than b
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<elfring> companion_cube: How long would it take to write a long arrow chains in the interface description file directly instead of copying it from a command line interface (toplevel)?
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<adrien> less and less time as you get more experienced
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<companion_cube> elfring: usually I start by writing the .mli file
<companion_cube> unless I really have trouble figuring out what it is I want
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<bernardofpc> companion_cube: don't you take your .mli from the inferred interface and prune it down ?
<companion_cube> nope.
<bernardofpc> why so ?
<companion_cube> I write types before I start writing code
<companion_cube> helps me see what I need
<ggole> Writing an .mli is often a bit like writing a variant: it's structure that guides the code rather than emerges from the code
<companion_cube> in some languages you can even start to infer code from types :)
<companion_cube> although that's quite extreme
<ggole> cf Brooks' comments about tables and routines
<ggole> You mean deriving, or finding-the-inhabitant stuff?
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<companion_cube> the second one
<companion_cube> in agda, I think
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<Drup> agda and even more in idris
<Drup> (and deriving and finding-the-inhabitant" is the same thing
<Drup> just that non dependently typed language use an ad-hoc technique for a limited version, which they call deriving)
<ggole> Hmm, I thought of them as quite different
<Drup> you can ask about internalizing parametricity, he's going to be very happy to answer :3
<ggole> Not that I have meaningful experience with agda/idris/that level of type-fu.
<Drup> ask gasche*
<Drup> ggole: see it this way : deriving fmap on a type 'a t is equivalent to finding a term of type ('a -> 'b) -> 'a t -> 'b t
<ggole> "Finding" implies some kind of backtracking search, whereas I'd thought of deriving as a fairly simple constructive process
<ggole> Is that wrong?
<companion_cube> I think, in the case of Deriving, that derivation of functor instances is done with a specialized method
<Drup> the problem is simpler so the algorithm can be a bit more straightforward, that doesn't mean it's a different problem :)
<companion_cube> so no backtracking is required, but specific knowledge is used instead
<Drup> it's just a subset
<ggole> Hrm.
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