#ocaml on 2015-09-02 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-28 16:28 adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.2 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml

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00:22 <Drup> jrslepak: great, thanks!

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04:29 <Algebr> Can C side code arbitrary change the value of a value argument in a C binding? I guess that would mean Seg fault? I'm just wondering about having a record with a mutable field, then that should be fine to mutable from C side?

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04:55 <dsheets> Algebr, the ocaml gc can change the location of values so you can't keep pointers to them over a gc cycle

04:55 <dsheets> gc cycles can occur at any allocation

04:56 <dsheets> if you don't hold the runtime lock then another thread can run the gc

04:57 * dsheets falls asleep

04:57 <Algebr> say I have an ocaml side record of {mutable thing = bool}, Can't I just set it to false or true on the C side?

04:57 <Algebr> oh darn

04:59 <flux> "Assignments to the fields of structured blocks must be done with the Store_field macro (for normal blocks) or Store_double_field macro (for arrays and records of floating-point numbers). Other assignments must not use Store_field nor Store_double_field. "

04:59 <flux> you can assign it, as long as you do it the way Store_field does it.

05:01 <flux> algebr, ..did you read the "Interfacing C with OCaml" from the manual?-)

05:01 <Algebr> then the mutable keyword makes no difference on the C side?

05:01 <Algebr> yea, I have read it over and over but this is a nuanced topic

05:01 <flux> my understanding is that it's only for constraining the ocaml program

05:01 <flux> C program is pretty much able to break those constraints

05:02 <flux> of course, if you do break them, your OCaml program may work wrong in presence of optimizations

05:02 <flux> ..in some point of future perhaps :)

05:02 <Algebr> So like the labels in a record are gone by runtime, since a record and a tuple are the same

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05:03 <flux> yes

05:03 <Algebr> then why use tuples at all, since there's no performance hit vs a record, might as well.

05:03 <Algebr> use records all the time you use a tuple currently

05:05 <flux> well, tuples don't have labels for one :)

05:05 <flux> when you just want to have a pair or triple of values, it's nice!

05:05 <flux> but you could replace all them with type ('a, 'b) pair = { first : 'a; second : 'b }

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05:10 <Algebr> sigh, I keep getting a seg fault in caml_modify

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05:29 <Algebr> found it, my own stupidity. I am coding spoiled by a type system.

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07:13 <elfring> Do you know any analysis tools which can display call graphs for OCaml source files?

07:14 <flux> no, but at least it's not difficult to create module dependency graphs

07:14 <flux> with ocamldep and a bit scripting.

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07:15 <flux> oh, and I guess ocamldoc does that already

07:15 <flux> the tool you are proposing would be interesting, though, but it might be a bit difficult to implement in presence of ie. functors

07:16 <mrvn> no more than first class modules

07:16 <Algebr> Why would stuff like that mess up a dependency graph

07:17 <mrvn> hardest would be local modules opened from global values.

07:17 <mrvn> module refs

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07:19 <flux> mrvn, I think yes more, but it depends where you would want to draw the line to

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07:19 <flux> mrvn, in case of first class modules you would draw the dependency from where the first class modules is created at, not where it's used at

07:19 <flux> doing the latter would be basically impossible anyway

07:20 <flux> unless you create the dependency graphi in a dynamic fashion at runtime (that would be cool too, though)

07:20 <mrvn> flux: normaly a first class module is the same as a record with functions.

07:20 <mrvn> it only gets difficult when it gets mutable.

07:20 <flux> mrvn, and if I pass a record I would expect the dependencies to point to the place where I create the record, so pretty much the same.

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07:21 <mrvn> flux: in a call graph you need the method getting called

07:22 <flux> mrvn, the dependency would then be drawn from the call site to the signature definition

07:22 <flux> mrvn, it would be impossible to draw it actually to the implementation (if doing it statically)

07:23 <mrvn> depends on the case. most would probably trivial and you could trace which module gets passed and then point to the concret function.

07:24 <flux> foo (if Random.bool () then (module1) else (module2)) - but you still need to handle that, even if you have a secret sauce to handle special cases

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07:26 <mrvn> flux: that problem at least doesn't exist with functors.

07:26 <mrvn> or can you do it there too without involving local modules?

07:27 <flux> but same piece of code can be instantiated with multiple different functors

07:27 <flux> hmm, I suppose that's not the problem

07:27 <flux> same problem with anything :-)

07:27 <Algebr> What is the most modern/maintained utf library? Camomile was deprecated, right

07:27 <flux> camomile was deprecated?

07:28 <mrvn> worst case is: let m = ref (M);

07:28 <Algebr> I thought it was?

07:28 <flux> well, it's news to me :)

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07:29 <flux> but if you don't need full unicide support, there are smaller alternatives

07:30 <Algebr> I want emojis

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07:30 <Algebr> I remember being able to do it with camomile

07:30 <flux> what does it mean to be able to do it?

07:31 <flux> is it different from being able to do the letter ä?

07:31 <Algebr> I think it means I was able to figure out how to use the libary =P

07:31 <flux> find an emoji unicode character, copy and paste :-)

07:32 <Algebr> lol

07:32 <flux> what camomile I understand really provides, is things like case-insensitive string comparisons, uppercase/lowercase, ordering comparisons, etc..

07:35 <flux> unicode-compatible regexp-matching, all 8-, 16-, and 32-bit encodings, unicode substrings, unicode character map/set, .. and that's maybe it

07:36 <flux> algebr, I can print emojis without any unicode library: Printf.printf "\xF0\x9F\x98\x81"

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07:38 <flux> (from: http://apps.timwhitlock.info/emoji/tables/unicode)

07:39 <flux> so a bit better approach is to get the unicode symbol number and convert that to string

07:39 <flux> well, I'm not sure how it's better. perhaps cleaner.

07:44 <Algebr> yea but I mean I want something to handle stuff like I give a unicode code adn you print it out

07:45 <Algebr> ah, yea, you said that

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07:56 <flux> I think this is the reason why other unicode libraries are a bit more popular nowadays:

07:56 <flux> let b = UTF8.Buf.create 10 in UTF8.Buf.add_char b (UChar.chr 0x1f601); Printf.printf "%s\n" (UTF8.Buf.contents b)

07:56 <flux> or maybe there's a shorter way..

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08:54 <oriba> there is some new stuff in OCaml (?), ppx-extensions. Whats that about? Is this for OCaml-AST-parsing? Is this OCaml-internal replacement for the external CamlP4/5?

08:55 <companion_cube> http://whitequark.org/blog/2014/04/16/a-guide-to-extension-points-in-ocaml/ and https://github.com/whitequark/ppx_deriving/

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08:56 <oriba> companion_cube: thx

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08:56 <ely-se> aww

08:57 <ely-se> wanted to change my nickname to heavy_duty_super_colliding_super_button so I could be closer to companion_cube

09:00 <companion_cube> as long as you don't change for aperture_science_emergency_incinerator

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10:04 <elfring> How often do you stumble on a message like "Error: Unbound value <Module>.<function>" during software development?

10:05 <elfring> How do you try to resolve such difficulties around function name binding?

10:06 <flux> 1) rarely 2) use the right function :)

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10:10 <elfring> Would anybody like to try here if such an error message can be reproduced for another bit of free software on a test system?

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17:14 <tibor> Hi

17:15 <tibor> May I have a question?

17:15 <ollehar> tibor: shoot

17:18 <tibor> Can someone tell me, how can I have a pattern match to check the list elements for example "match a with | (El a) :: (El b) -> ..."

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17:18 <tibor> I would like to check the elements type

17:19 <tibor> Is it posible?

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17:19 <zozozo> tibor: well, first, lists in OCaml are homogeneous, meaning that all the elements of the lists have the same type

17:19 <companion_cube> no, types are checked at compile time

17:25 <mrvn> zozozo: except for type _ el = El : 'a -> unit el

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17:26 <mrvn> But that is usualy a useless type because its like a black hole. things go in but they never come out

17:27 <mrvn> tibor: if you want different types in a list then you need to combine them into a single variant type and then put that into the list.

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17:28 <mrvn> tibor: then you can match on the variants constructors as well as the list.

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17:34 <tibor> How can I match the variant constructors? Which is the syntax?

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17:34 <tibor> I'm sorry, I'm very busy now :(

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17:41 <dmbaturin> tibor: match xs with (`Foo _) :: (`Bar _) -> ...

17:41 <dmbaturin> * (`Foo _) :: (`Bar _) :: _

17:42 <zozozo> mrvn: sure, but even then, the list elements technically have the same type, ^^

17:43 <dmbaturin> Polymorphic variant constructors are prefixed with ` and they are checked at runtime. You don't have to declare those types even, it will be automatically inferred as [> `Foo of something | `Bar of something]

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17:50 <tibor> dmbaturin: thank you

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20:38 <sinelaw> what's a good reference to the type theory behind optional arguments?

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20:43 <mrvn> sinelaw: there is non

20:43 <mrvn> e

20:43 <mrvn> optional argument are syntactic suggar for 'a option

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20:44 <mrvn> and default values are more syntactic suggar for "let name = match name with None -> default | Some x -> x in"

20:48 <oriba> intersting! :)

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20:49 <Drup> mrvn: it's not completely true, there are some interesting bits about the heuristic for function application

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20:50 <mrvn> Drup: heuristic? Isn't the labeled argument a sure thing?

20:51 <sinelaw> why won't this compile?

20:51 <sinelaw> let f ?(x=1) y = x * y;;

20:51 <sinelaw> let g h x y = h x y;;

20:51 <sinelaw> let foo = g f;; <--- error

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20:51 <mrvn> Error: This expression has type int -> int but an expression was expected of type int -> 'a -> 'b Type int is not compatible with type 'a -> 'b

20:52 <Drup> mrvn: yes, but it has a bias

20:52 <mrvn> sinelaw: labeled argument

20:52 <Drup> like the fact that sinelaw's example doesn't work, because arrows don't unify exactly the same way

20:53 <mrvn> arguments with label always need the label. Don't see any heuristic there.

20:53 <sinelaw> mrvn, what label?

20:53 <sinelaw> Drup, exactly

20:53 <Drup> mrvn: except that's false

20:53 <mrvn> sinelaw: ?(x=1) is a labeled argument

20:53 <Drup> if the application is complete, you don't need the label

20:53 <sinelaw> Drup, so where are these points documented or discussed? is there a paper?

20:54 <mrvn> # f 1 2;;

20:54 <mrvn> Error: The function applied to this argument has type ?x:int -> int

20:54 <mrvn> This argument cannot be applied without label

20:54 <mrvn> Drup: still needs a label

20:54 <mrvn> Drup: what case are you thinking about?

20:54 <Drup> sinelaw: http://www.math.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~garrigue/papers/ grep for label

20:54 <sinelaw> thanks

20:54 <Drup> mrvn: let f ~x ~y = x + y in f 3 4 ;;

20:54 <Drup> no labels.

20:55 <Drup> works just fine

20:55 <mrvn> Drup: ahh, because you have only labeled arguments, not a mixture.

20:55 <mrvn> didn't know that would work.

20:55 <Drup> let f ~x y = x + y in f 3 4 ;;

20:55 <Drup> still working.

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20:56 <mrvn> Drup: I stand corrected. What I said only applies to optional/default arguments because they can be skipped.

20:56 <Drup> the manual explains the heuristic that is used

20:56 <Drup> mrvn: even for optional argument, it's more complicated

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22:00 <apache2> if I have a `type x = bytes` that is opaque (`type x` in the .mli), how do I write a "bytes_of_x" function (in the library)?

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