adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.2 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<oriba> Are there any *good* tutorials *with* *examples* for lablgtk?
<oriba> It's so confusing to compare lablgtk-mli-files with the C-binding docs...
<oriba> ...real-world examples may also help....
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<Bahman> Hi all!
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<magthe> a question related to emacs: I'm using merlin to get warnings displayed in my emacs window, I get a lot of errors caused by it not finding packages (packages installed using opam, e.g. Core.Std), where should I look to find out how to configure it to find the available packages?
<ggole> magthe: you set up a .merlin which indicates which packages to look for (among other things)
<ggole> See the merlin docs for the details
<magthe> ggole: thanks, then I know what to look for
<magthe> ggole: haha, that was quick and easy... a "PKG core_extended" later and all my errors are gone :)
<ggole> \o/
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<ely-se> is there an OCaml derivative for the JVM with Java interop?
<MasseR> Yes
<MasseR> ocaml java
<ely-se> nice
<MasseR> And yeti
<MasseR> (although that's not ocaml-derivative, but ml)
<companion_cube> but ocamljava is not free, is it?
<ely-se> lol
<ely-se> the Java interop looks very ad-hoc
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<MasseR> ely-se: Very. In my eyes it still seems very crude
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<ely-se> I should really look into the whole .NET on Linux stuff
<ely-se> IME it's a pain to use .NET if you don't use Visual Studio
<ely-se> because things tend to be designed and documented around the assumption that you do
<ely-se> but the set of existing libraries are nice (esp Noda Time) and F# is nice too
<companion_cube> maybe .NET on linux is going to be easier, with the open-sourcing
<ely-se> my F# build system on Linux tends to be fsharpc $(cat sources.txt), where sources.txt is the list of source files in the correct order :P
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<ely-se> s/is/contains/
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<Bahman> ely-se: Scala is pretty much OCaml with some specific JVM additions and restrictions.
<Bahman> OCaml = ML
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<ely-se> Scala is meh
<ely-se> it's too complicated for me
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<Bahman> True.
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<flux> my understanding of scala is rather that it's the C++ of functional languages..
<MasseR> ely-se: check out frege as well
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<ely-se> I want a job which does not involve databases or user interfaces in any imaginable way.
<MasseR> Hah, I don't user interfaces in any imaginable way :)
<MasseR> Anymore
<MasseR> On the previous job my boss said something like "You will never do frontend again" :)
<ely-se> what do you do now?
<MasseR> Systems integrations
<dmbaturin> ely-se: I thought there is some IDE-agnostic build tool for .Net
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<ely-se> I'd resign but there's no other software companies nearby
<MasseR> ely-se: I know your pain :)
<dmbaturin> I don't get why F# foundation doesn't distribute a tarball with binaries. .Net was supposed to be "compile once, run everywhere", or so I thought.
<dmbaturin> Not everyone feels like building it from source.
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<ely-se> I was looking for NXOR in Python for minutes until I realised it's written "=="
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<ely-se> what also came to mind: bidirectional implication
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<whitequark> hi
<whitequark> hygiene is hard
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<companion_cube> hey whitequark o/
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<def`> hi, hygiene is hard :D?
<companion_cube> I suppose it's hygiene in macros? :)
<companion_cube> preprocessors, I mean
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<ely-se> it's easy. take a shower and brush your teeth.
<whitequark> typesystem rejects that
<ely-se> I'm a BCPL programmer and I turn off the type system.
* whitequark gives ely-se a stinkeye
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* ely-se eats it
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<dmbaturin> When taking untyped shower, you'd have to check too many assertions.
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<ely-se> assert(water instanceof Water);
<ely-se> Assertion failed. Appears it was H2SO4.
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<ely-se> I want to give cactus-driven development a try.
<whitequark> ppx_hygienic y/n
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<Drup> hi whitequark :)
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<ely-se> cactus-driven development is very much like fear-driven development, with the fear of being stabbed with a cactus if you fail to meet the deadlines
<ely-se> iff, even
<whitequark> that's someone's fetish
<ely-se> a guy I know has this bumper sticker IRL: https://xkcd.com/1033/
<ely-se> he just .. has no car
<ely-se> maybe I want to make a 2D platformer in OCaml
<dmbaturin> My other car is cadr.
<dmbaturin> ely-se: We should make a game about programming language theory. "Language Quest" or something.
<whitequark> haha, i found a bug in ocamldoc
<whitequark> (** {2 x} *) (** {3 y} *): x appears twice
<ely-se> dmbaturin: that sounds quite boring
<whitequark> (** {2 x} {3 y} *): it doesn't
<ely-se> wait, what is programming language theory?
<Drup> whitequark: there are lots of bugs in ocamldoc since the last two minor versions
<Drup> 4.02.2 is completely broken, 4.02.3 is only slightly broken
<dmbaturin> Drup: What event caused proliferation of bugs?
<Drup> Complete change of the implementation for codoc
<ely-se> "Programming language theory (PLT) is a branch of computer science that deals with the design, implementation, analysis, characterization, and classification of programming languages and their individual features."
<ely-se> sounds quite exciting
<ely-se> which reminds me, I should write a specification for my programming language
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<ely-se> because it's current killer feature is being 100% undocumented
<flux> killer as in it kills people trying to use it with sharp edges?
<ely-se> yes, like C#
<dmbaturin> ely-se: What's the killer feature and where's the language?
<ely-se> the killer feature is it being 100% undocumented and its implementation is on github
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<flux> oh yeah, well I'll write a language with 10% documentation that's completely misleading, that's gotta be worse
<ely-se> but hello world works :3
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<flux> I just yesterday evening started a new ocaml project! woohoo, new directory!
<flux> so far it allows me to add (and move! and remove) points to the screen and once there are exactly four points, it evaluates a perspective transform for those four points
<flux> when it grows big I hope to measure distances from photos given reference points.
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<dmbaturin> flux: Distances between objects in photos?
<flux> like I have a picture of a room and with known wall lengths
<flux> then I can measure how far furniture is from given walls
<flux> perhaps at some point it can also to 3d projections involving measurements of height
<flux> this all of course requires there is no lens distortion..
<whitequark> are we talking about haskell now?
<flux> I don't think so..
<ely-se> you could also just go there and take a tape measure with you!
<flux> ely-se, well, that's possible, but in fact the idea comes from the fact that I have photos of a place I've never been to ;)
<flux> and I wish to create a 3d model of it
<whitequark> flux: "lens distortion"
<whitequark> *cough*
<dmbaturin> Nobody remembers what "monad" meant before it acquired its current meaning in haskell. Soon everyone will forget what lens meant before.
<ely-se> flux: now's your chance!
<flux> whitequark, well, I mean lines are straight in the middle of the picture, but not so when you have a fisheye lense and measure near the edges
<whitequark> yes, I know.
<flux> whitequark, so your point was?-)
<ely-se> extract the lens properties from EXIF data
<flux> that's certainly something to look at, yes
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<ely-se> oh, the king is riding through the city today in a coach. I hope something goes wrong, like one of the horses getting out of control or the coach breaking down
<ely-se> that'd be funny
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<whitequark> ppx_deriving now has hygiene
<reynir> That's a cool project, flux
<flux> too bad I had to turn my brains off and basically apply maxima on the projection matrices to boot it up.. :-)
<flux> also in future exporting to 3d applications may turn out to be annoying, as I would like to use STEP for it.
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<whitequark> you want NURBS?
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<flux> no :). the first step would probably be using points, I hope STEP has them :).
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<magthe> I'm writing a server for a little protocol based on C enums... is there some convenient way of defining a type t and automatically getting int_to_t: int -> t) and (t_to_int: t -> int)?
<whitequark> yes, ppx_deriving
<magthe> whitequark: thanks, and I see it's available via opam too :)
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<magthe> hmm, I can't seem to get the examples for ppx_deriving working, utop complains: Error: Parse error: [str_item] or ";;" expected (in [top_phrase])
<def`> no camlp4 if you want ppx
<magthe> def`: does that mean it doesn't play nice with Core?
<whitequark> you don't have to use ppx to use core
<whitequark> er, to use camlp4
<def`> and if you want core extensions, there should
<def`> be a ppx version
<whitequark> did they release it yet?
<whitequark> I don't think ppx type_conv is public
<magthe> whitequark: but I have to use camlp4 to use Core?
<def`> i don't know :)
<def`> ok, there WILL be
<whitequark> magthe: no
<whitequark> I typoed
<whitequark> "you don't have to use camlp4 to use Core"
<def`> +1
<magthe> whitequark: do I get the nice `with sexp` without camlp4?
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> (that's what type_conv is)
<whitequark> you can, however, use [@@deriving show] for debug printing
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<magthe> hmm, so I have to choose, either [@@deriving foo] or `with sexp`? that's a little disappointing
<whitequark> well, blame Core for using camlp4 ;p
<companion_cube> :>
<whitequark> the next version of Core will in fact use ppx_deriving
<magthe> well, there's ppx_meta_conv that seems to provide sexp decoder/encoder
<magthe> I wonder how long I'll have to wait for next version of Core then...
<whitequark> do you actually need sexp for something? you'd be the first one I know
<companion_cube> sexp are arguably more readable than json?
* adrien uses sexp
* adrien needs to move to companion_cube's sexp
<companion_cube> it's only been 1 year
<magthe> whitequark: I wanted something easy to use in both OCaml and C
<whitequark> sexp is easy to use in C??
<adrien> companion_cube: my TODO list has items that have been waiting for 5 years easily
<magthe> whitequark: it's easier than JSON
<flux> I think json is nice in that it's easier to make accidentally future-proof than sexp :)
<magthe> and I *really* don't want to add another enum-based protocol
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<flux> magthe, I guess protobuf and piqi are out of question then..
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<flux> though I've used sexp before for ocaml--c++ interop. twas nice, with some c++ classes.
<oriba> what library is there for image manipulation, that can be recommended?
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<whitequark> *not* camlimages
<flux> I wonder if it would have been as nice with json, though. with c++ it was something like if (match(json, list(list(xxx), string(yyy))) { .. }
<magthe> flux: I'll have a look, but I guess they are
<oriba> whitequark: yes, thats why I ask here... I just tried camlimages again, and - as before - became demotivated from the chaos...
<whitequark> I haven't even tried to use the API of camlimages and I am already demotivated
<oriba> hehe
<oriba> which other libs are there?
<flux> oriba, please share if you find a motivating alternative :-)
<oriba> well... is there no alternative?!?!
<flux> oriba, what do you want to do?
<oriba> reading, analysing, maybe manipulating images.
<oriba> There is not even a tutorial.
<whitequark> "analysing" and "manipulating" can go quite far..
<flux> you can use https://github.com/eras/ocaml-jpeg for reading jpegs.. :)
<oriba> just simple things at the moment... maybe I should use jpeg-lib directly...
<oriba> flux: aha, ok, maybe thats helping. Long ago I had written jpeglib-stuff by myself, but only grabbing pic-size. Now I need more functionality. So ocaml-jpeg maybe is helpful. thanks for the link
<whitequark> hum, I've read through ppx_meta_conv and surprisingly I can endorse it
<flux> now I'm looking at its mli and I can't fathom why there is the 'format type returned from external functions, apparently it is a polymorphic type, so don't touch it..
<flux> oriba, if you want to add a similarly easy support for saving jpegs, go right ahead ;)
<flux> I guess it should return .. 'rgb pixel_format instead
<whitequark> it doesn't even use the usual extremely monadic style
<oriba> hmhh, oasis is needed... for building it, the list of dependencies is so extremely ong.. why is there so much bloat all around thw world? :(
<whitequark> ppx_meta_conv?
<whitequark> or camlimages?
<oriba> ?
<whitequark> what needs oasis?
<whitequark> ppx_meta_conv uses omake
<oriba> the jpeg-lib
<whitequark> oh sorry I mixed a bunch of things up
<whitequark> nevermind what I siad
<oriba> "oasis setup"...
<flux> oriba, oh, I suppose I should make an actual release with the oasis-generated files..
<oriba> oasis needs : ocaml-batteries, ocaml-fileutils>=0.4.2, ocaml-ocamlgraph, ocaml-ocamlify, ocaml-odn>=0.0.11, ocaml-ocamlmod, ocaml-expect>=0.0.3
<oriba> just for reading jpeg files... hmhh
<flux> but it seems so dirty to push the generated files to the repo
<flux> the library itself doesn't need much anything.
<whitequark> ocamlgraph?!
<whitequark> flux: then don't use oasis.
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<flux> it's easy, and it worked for me
<whitequark> most of the things oasis does are not useful
<flux> the build and relocatable install phases for a library with C parts were useful to me
<oriba> 282 lines of code. and megabytes ans many kloc just for building it... omg
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<whitequark> flux: two lines in myocamlbuild, srsly
<whitequark> oriba: I'm bored, want me to rip all that out and replace it with something decent?
<flux> whitequark, if you do replace the oasis and it works, I'll certainly merge it :)
<oriba> ... just looking, if I can use OCamlMakefile for building it
<flux> it probably has some alternative build system in its history
<oriba> ... would be intresrting how it looks with ocamlbuild (which idid not really used so far)
<whitequark> burn OCamlMakefile too
<whitequark> in the same fiery pit of death as oasis
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<flux> according to commit messages there aren't even any useful modifications after that
<companion_cube> oasis is quite nice if you have multiple sub-libraries and a configure; otherwise ocamlbuild is enough
<companion_cube> btw whitequark did you see gasche's new ocamlbuild manual?
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<whitequark> oh, nice
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<oriba> oasis is not even mentioned there...
<whitequark> why would it?
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<oriba> why is OcamlMakefile, obuild, jenga OMake mentioned?
<oriba> and why not oasis?
<whitequark> if you ask me: because oasis shall burn
<whitequark> but that's probably not why gasche omitted it
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<oriba> 9 lines for Makefile :) and no need to read the ocamlbuild-tutorial, no need to think about _tags and such stuff. Just Makefile + OCamlMakefile. ready :-)
<oriba> (without installation so far, but for my local needs its ok)
<whitequark> you could just revert that commit...
<oriba> where is your ocamlbuild-solution?
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<whitequark> revert 417a4e1?
<oriba> aha, ok... needs some handwork to compile the stuff (ocamlbuild-calls by hand, no makefile for it). But thats nice too.
<whitequark> yeah, if you want installation also take a look at https://github.com/dbuenzli/topkg, I use it everywhere
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<oriba> aha
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<oriba> Iwonderwhere there are _tags and other ocamlbuild-files also see no myocamlbuild.ml-file
<oriba> but the lib can be build
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<oriba> the revert was not necessary
<whitequark> it won't load
<oriba> ?
<whitequark> because it misses the C component
<oriba> ah, oh
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<gsingh93_> has anyone here read "OCaml from the Very Beginning"?
<gsingh93_> i'm thinking of getting it
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<smondet> gsingh93_: haven't read it myself, but I've been told (by colleagues, ocaml beginners) it's very good
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<dmbaturin> gsingh93_: I've read it, it's a nice book especially if you are completely new to ML.
<dmbaturin> And the author sells DRM-free PDFs.
<lobo> and you get updated versions of the ebook free of charge
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<companion_cube> what is this?
<flux> it's a tool that eventually allows to perform measurements on a picture, given some reference values
<flux> for example for the purpose of creating a 3d model of a space
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<companion_cube> what kind of "reference values"
<companion_cube> I don't see how you can extract this from only one picture
<flux> well, for example in that picture you would need to know the real-world coordinates of the four corner pixels
<flux> it's not automatic but rather manual operation
<companion_cube> oh
<companion_cube> I've seen a openCL binding on github, too
<flux> there's also spoc available in opam
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<reynir> cool!
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<Drup> "[GitHub] Subscribed to 28 mirage repositories"
<Drup> Nooooo
* Drup is flooded
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<rgrinberg1> how do you find the cause of memory leaks in OCaml programs on OSX?
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<rgrinberg1> poor man's profiler doesn't work on OSX? :/
<rgrinberg1> s/\?//
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<Drup> rgrinberg1: ocp-memprof ? :p
<rgrinberg1> doesn't work on OSX either
<Drup> :/
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