#ocaml on 2015-09-16 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-28 16:28 adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.2 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml

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00:08 <mfp> rgrinberg1: I've got a hack to find closure leaks (e.g. listeners being attached to a Lwt thread) by scanning the heap and collecting the Code_val values from closure blocks

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00:36 <rgrinberg1> mfp: Ha. I'm pretty sure I have something more tame than that.

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00:36 <rgrinberg1> mfp: but i'm curious about the hack

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00:54 <oriba> (buffer 1

00:54 <oriba> ooops

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03:44 <tmtwd_> hello

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07:42 <beginner> what are currently available librarys to check line coverage of unit tests?

07:42 <companion_cube> there is bisect

07:44 <beginner> does it support ocaml 4.02?

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07:46 <companion_cube> I think so

07:48 <ely-se> line coverage is kinda meh

07:48 <ely-se> branch coverage would be more interesting

07:50 <companion_cube> https://github.com/rleonid/bisect_ppx

07:50 <beginner> i guess there is nothing that tests branch coverage?

07:50 <companion_cube> not that I'm aware of

07:50 <companion_cube> OCaml programmers don't usually have a strong focus on tests

07:50 <companion_cube> (which is kind of bad)

07:51 <ely-se> the only project I know of that measures branch coverage is SQLite

07:53 <flux> "Bisect performs statement and condition coverage". isn't condition coverage a name for branch coverage?

07:54 <flux> apparently not quite

07:56 <ely-se> put every branch on its own line :D

07:57 <flux> hm, some refer to "condition/decision" coverage making it weaker than branch coverage

07:57 <flux> but I think only reading docs or trying it out will give out the answer :)

07:57 <flux> "condition coverage" seems like a rare term

07:57 <ely-se> some say tests are completely useless and you need to prove your algorithms correct instead

07:57 <ely-se> then they go on not getting stuff done :P

07:58 <flux> there was recently an old comment by bjarne stroustrup that tests are quite needed even in presence of formal tests

07:58 <flux> as there's always a part that you haven't modeled correctly

07:58 <ely-se> also integration with external entities

07:59 <ely-se> which may be very buggy

07:59 <flux> or, perhaps, an attribute that would be useful to prove, but you didn't realize to do that and failing that criteria renders the app useless in real world..

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07:59 <flux> ely-se, well, that's exactly it, you didn't then model the external entity correctly

08:00 <flux> it would be nice if (ie.) operating systems provided Coq-compatible interface descriptions, then it would be quite clear where the bug is.. :)

08:00 <ely-se> I want to try contract programming but there are so few tools to do it

08:01 <ely-se> e.g. put assertions in .mli files, like you can do with interfaces in D and Eiffel

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08:03 <flux> I guess implementing that wouldn't be an easy fit in ocaml syntax extension systems

08:04 <ely-se> like this: http://ideone.com/4c93Zj

08:05 <companion_cube> I had ideas about this too

08:05 <flux> in any case, it would only give guarantees of runtime :(

08:06 <ely-se> flux: yes, but at least they are checked at all, instead of merely residing in documentation

08:06 <companion_cube> you can write qtests in the .mli :)

08:06 <flux> maybe contracts would be the first step, next someone can write a tool for statically checking them at least for clear violations ;)

08:07 <ely-se> Spec# does that when it can

08:07 <ely-se> but Spec# is abandoned

08:07 <flux> companion_cube, but you cannot write the qtest in the .mli that provides the module type

08:07 <companion_cube> I'd rather have effects first

08:07 <companion_cube> no, indeed

08:07 <flux> companion_cube, and then just say your module implements that module type and have the tests run on that

08:07 <companion_cube> but contracts are on the border of dependent types

08:07 <ely-se> also, class invariants

08:08 <ely-se> although if your data structures are immutable, they're the same thing as constructor postconditions

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08:08 <flux> I'm sure writing a decent contract-system for ocaml would be worth at least a phd :)

08:09 <companion_cube> there has been an experiment on contracts in ocaml

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08:10 <ely-se> I implemented contracts once in an abandoned project (not for ocaml). maybe it still exists

08:11 <ely-se> yeah, seems like it, but not in interfaces: https://github.com/rightfold/lasagnascript/blob/master/examples/everything.lasagna#L62

08:13 <ely-se> terrible project

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10:24 <ely-se> 1 + 2 * 3 is 9 in Smalltalk. I like that.

10:25 <zozozo> ely-se: that's some weird operators priority

10:26 <ely-se> simple left to right

10:26 <ely-se> like 1.+(2).*(3)

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10:27 <zozozo> seems strange but understandable

10:27 <zozozo> anyway, the nice way to write that would be * + 1 2 3, ^^

10:28 <ely-se> I like * (+ 1 2) 3

10:29 <zozozo> the nice thing about polish reverse notation is that it doesn't need parenthesis as it is unambiguous (and without operator priority)

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10:33 <ely-se> that's true

10:34 <ely-se> I like it better the other way around though, 3 2 1 + *

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10:47 <roelof_> Hello, I like to learn ocaml. Does anyone knows a good online cloud enviroment which I can use ?

10:48 <dmbaturin> roelof_: Use for what?

10:49 <roelof_> learning and making programms. I think Win 10 is not the right OS for such a job

10:50 <dmbaturin> roelof_: OPAM, the de facto standard package manager, doesn't work on windows, so yeah, that's not so handy. However, it works on any UNIX platform, so any linux or BSD VPS will do.

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10:51 <roelof_> oke, I looked at nitrious.io but it seems they do not have things like syntax highlighting

10:52 <dmbaturin> Or install virtualbox and make a UNIX VM locally.

10:53 <roelof_> I will look at that. Is ocaml from the very beginning a good book for a absolute beginner

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10:53 <dmbaturin> Yes, that's a nice book.

10:54 <roelof_> thanks, for the info

10:56 <dmbaturin> zozozo: I think the thing is that smalltalk has no operator precedence at all, so any sequence is evaluated left to right.

10:56 <ely-se> 1 + 3 sends the message "+ 3" to 1

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10:59 <dmbaturin> roelof_: Note that OPAM authors distribute binaries, and it can be used for installing ocaml itself (and can keep multiple versions and switch between them), so the best way to setup the environment is to first setup OPAM and then use it to setup ocaml.

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11:24 <flux> re. operator precedency: I like being copy'n paste formulas from maxima/octave. I still need to search/replace * / . and literals but it's less risky I think :)

11:24 <flux> (or maybe I could just open some FloatOps module)

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13:08 <dinosaure> hello, it's possible to merge ocaml-base64 with ocaml-nocrypto ?

13:09 <dinosaure> because we have two library for the same way (just ocaml-base64 handles a uri safe alphabet)

13:10 <dinosaure> or I can change nocrypto to handle a b64 with uri safe alphabet

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18:51 <breadmonster> Hey everyone.

18:51 <breadmonster> Why can't I implement the fix function in OCaml?

18:52 <breadmonster> In Haskell it's `fix f = let x = f x in x`

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18:53 <def`> let rec fix f x = f (fix f) x

18:54 <def`> you need to eta-expand to delay evaluation (ocaml being strict)

18:54 <def`> eta-expand is adding this x argument

18:55 <breadmonster> Aaah okay.

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18:58 <dmbaturin> breadmonster: On a bright side, the need for eta expansion inhibits excessive use of point-free style. ;)

18:59 <def`> +1 :D

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19:00 <breadmonster> dmbaturin: You make it sound like a bad thing :P

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19:05 <dmbaturin> Well, I'm only against its excessive use, not point-free style itself. :)

19:06 <Maelan_> I have a .polyml directory in my home, the origin of I do not know.

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19:07 <Maelan_> Could it be related to any OPAM package?

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19:10 <dmbaturin> Maelan_: It stores some runtime information stats there. If you had to kill your Poly/ML REPL process or made it crash, the file remain. They are safe to remove.

19:11 <Drup> poly/ML is another language of the ML family

19:11 <Drup> so, I doubt it's opam related

19:11 <Maelan_> Yeah, but I see no other explanation.

19:11 <dmbaturin> And no, there is no way to install anything Poly/ML-related from opam. :)

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19:12 <Maelan_> I thought that maybe some package could make something with poly/ML at compile-time.

19:12 <dmbaturin> I think nothing in opam has any SML dependencies. That would be rather odd.

19:13 <Maelan_> I do not remember having ever installed or tried Poly/ML.

19:13 <Maelan_> I continue investigating then.

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19:13 <dmbaturin> Run 'which poly'.

19:14 <Maelan_> I do not have such an executable in my path.

19:15 <Maelan_> Ohoh, I bet the culprit is Isabelle.

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19:15 <dmbaturin> Yeah, Isabelle is normally built with Poly/ML I think.

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19:16 <dmbaturin> Anyway, Poly/ML is a rather nice SML implementation, I use it for the interactive toplevel.

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19:18 <Maelan_> I did not thought that SML was really used nowadays. I was in the belief that (O)Caml remained the only ML descendant with significant use.

19:18 <dmbaturin> Unlike SML/NJ, it does work on 64-bit platforms natively.

19:19 <dmbaturin> Well, there's also F#.

19:19 <Maelan_> Oh, right.

19:20 <dmbaturin> Isabelle is not the only prover written in SML. Twelf also uses it, although I'm still to try it out.

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19:21 <Maelan_> So does SML have features not present in OCaml? What are the important differences?

19:24 <rks`> Orange.

19:25 <dmbaturin> Maelan_: First class constructors (fun toOpt xs = List.map SOME xs). Magically overloaded arithmetics. Transparent signature ascription in addition to opaque ascription. Fully formalized definition.

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19:30 <dmbaturin> The list of features present in OCaml but not in SML is several times longer though. :)

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19:32 <adrien> http://www.mpi-sws.org/~rossberg/sml-vs-ocaml.html and http://adam.chlipala.net/mlcomp/

19:32 <adrien> but these are getting outdated

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19:35 <Maelan_> I found http://stackoverflow.com/questions/699689/what-are-the-differences-between-sml-and-ocaml

19:37 <Drup> Maelan_: eh, as soon as the 4th point, it's already wrong

19:37 <Maelan_> Yes, it is a bit outdated too.

19:38 <Maelan_> And about type annotation, the guy says they do not allow to enforce polymorphism, which is not true anymore with the “: 'a. 'a -> 'a” syntax.

19:39 <Drup> it's a bit more complicated than that, because this type annotation is not available everywhere

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19:40 <Maelan_> Yes, and I’m still trying to understand how type annotation and type inference work in OCaml. I thought I knew, then I got some weird results with “:'a. blabla” and “:type a. blabla”.

19:40 <dmbaturin> SML also uses a very strict form of value restriction, so it needs a lot more eta expansions.

19:41 <Maelan_> By the way, how arithmetic overloading works i

19:41 <Maelan_> By the way, how arithmetic overloading works with type inference in SML?

19:42 <mrvn> Maelan_: 'a. 'a -> 'a is allowed in records, but not normal functions

19:43 <mrvn> Maelan_: doesn't SML have type classes?

19:43 <Maelan_> rks`, … ? Openness?

19:44 <dmbaturin> I didn't check how implementations do it, but overloading is not reflected in the typing rules in any way, so it's essentially a hack.

19:45 <dmbaturin> There is no overloading as language feature exposed to the user.

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19:45 <mrvn> I want: a M.+ b

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19:46 <Maelan_> nevermind, I found my answer here: http://www.smlnj.org/doc/Conversion/types.html

19:46 <dmbaturin> Maelan_: Ah, yes, there are also "equality types". (=) only works for certain predefined types, otherwise it doesn't typecheck.

19:47 <Maelan_> dmbaturin, isn’t that another occurence of overloading?

19:47 <Maelan_> mrvn, is that a question? I am the one asking questions, so I do not know. :-)

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19:48 <dmbaturin> * It works with sum and product types though, as long as their members have an eqtype.

19:49 <dmbaturin> Maelan: Pretty much, but there is no way to provide your own implementation of equality that will work with built-in (=) function.

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19:51 <dmbaturin> In other words, the amount of ad-hocery in SML standard library compensates for the fully formalized language. :)

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19:59 <dmbaturin> Maelan: http://baturin.org/code/mlton-overload/ My theory is that it first replaces the operator with its particular implementation like Int.(+) based on types of arguments, and then runs it through the normal overload-unaware type checker. But I never read that code and thus can be wrong about details.

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20:26 <Maelan> hmm, okay

20:28 <dmbaturin> Maelan: What are you proving with Isabelle, by the way?

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20:40 <Maelan> dmbaturin, nothing, just trying it.

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20:43 <sgeisenh> Everyone in here dissing on SML ='(

20:43 <sgeisenh> At least SML has a type safe module language =P

20:44 <sgeisenh> Oops, I meant abstraction safe.

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20:48 <Denommus> SML is proven, OCaml is not, it's just a pragmatic, engineer-oriented ML variation

20:48 <dmbaturin> sgeisenh: I like SML and I'm a big fan of its maintainer.

20:50 <Denommus> I wonder how a newer pragmatic ML would look like with the most recent research

20:50 <Denommus> something that is for OCaml like Rust is for C++

20:52 <dmbaturin> ...which doesn't prevent me from routinely making fun of particular features of languages I like. :)

20:53 <dmbaturin> Denommus: Not sure if Rust really should be seen as an evolution of C++.

20:53 <sgeisenh> dmbaturin: It was, in many ways, developed as a safe alternative to C++.

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20:54 <dmbaturin> Denommus: Have you seen 1ML?

20:54 <sgeisenh> 1ML isn't exactly more practical. It makes optimization of abstractions MUCH harder.

20:56 <dmbaturin> sgeisenh: Safe alternative to C++ designed with imperative mindset precedes C++, it's called Ada. :)

21:01 <Denommus> dmbaturin: I have not

21:02 <dmbaturin> What I mean is that Rust is more of a qualitative change compared to C++.

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21:02 <dmbaturin> Denommus: It has some ideas about module system. There's also eff-lang.org that has new ideas about handling effects.

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21:05 <Denommus> dmbaturin: I thought Ada variants with dynamically allocated memory allowed use-after-free, unlike safe Rust (that is, Rust without unsafe blocks)

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21:08 <Denommus> dmbaturin: and nevertheless, Rust doesn't have only the imperative mindset. In that regard, it's somewhat similar to OCaml - except for the mut variables

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21:09 <dmbaturin> Denommus: Yeah, that's what I mean. Rust is more of a qualitative change.

21:11 <dmbaturin> However, I might have misinterpreted your statement and you meant a qualitative change from ocaml. I think I need some sleep.

21:14 <ollehar> does ocaml gc do realloc?

21:14 <ollehar> of string, e.g.

21:14 <ollehar> because string concat is slower in ocaml than in php

21:15 <Denommus> ollehar: which version?

21:16 <ollehar> Denommus: 4.02.1

21:16 <ollehar> php 5.5

21:17 <Denommus> ollehar: String.concat?

21:17 <ollehar> Denommus: no, ^

21:17 <ollehar> same?

21:18 <Denommus> ollehar: I mean, what function are you using for concatenation?

21:19 <ollehar> ^

21:19 <ollehar> so, a ^ b

21:19 <ollehar> :)

21:19 <Denommus> ollehar: ah, I usually expect one to say (^) XD

21:20 <ollehar> haha ok

21:20 <ollehar> is String.concat in str.c, byterun?

21:21 <Denommus> ollehar: the module String deals with a immutable data structure, the module Bytes is almost the same data structure, but mutable

21:21 <Denommus> ollehar: (^) actually works with Bytes.t, not String.t

21:21 <Denommus> ollehar: I'm not an specialist, so I don't know if that's resulting in poor performance

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21:22 <ollehar> ah

21:25 <Maelan> Denommus, really?

21:25 <Maelan> (about (^) working with Bytes.t)

21:26 <Denommus> Maelan: testing it now I'm actually kinda confused

21:27 <Maelan> The toplevel with ocaml 4.02.3 says me it is still of type string -> string -> string.

21:27 <Denommus> utop # String.concat "" ["a"; "b"];; - : bytes = "ab"

21:27 <dmbaturin> Maelan, Denommus: It depends on whether you use -safe-string option.

21:27 <Denommus> ah

21:27 <Denommus> dmbaturin: so utop is probably using unsafe strings, right?

21:27 <dmbaturin> In 4.02.1 at least, later versions could make the immutable string the default.

21:27 <ollehar> god

21:28 <ollehar> complex

21:28 <dmbaturin> Immutable string distinct from bytes is the future.

21:29 <ollehar> so no way to realloc a gc block, then...

21:29 <Maelan> ollehar, « bytes » and « string » are really the same under the hood.

21:29 <ollehar> can't find any realloc in alloc.h, anyway.

21:29 <ollehar> Maelan: char, that is? ^^

21:29 <ollehar> well, char = byte, so.

21:30 <dmbaturin> (^^) is format -> format -> format :)

21:31 <Maelan> ollehar, an « array » of chars, but not a regular OCaml’s array (for space-efficiency and, I guess, interaction with C).

21:31 <ollehar> yeah, char*

21:31 <ollehar> ending with nul

21:31 <ollehar> which is not the same as null

21:31 <Maelan> Well, not really.

21:32 <Maelan> You also have the length stored so you can access it in constant time (like for OCaml’s arrays).

21:32 <Maelan> And OCaml’s strings can store null bytes.

21:32 <ollehar> yeah, I read that.

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21:33 <ollehar> but caml_str_concat uses strlen ><

21:33 <ollehar> but that's only internal, I think

21:34 <Maelan> dmbaturin, (^) is string -> string -> string for me with or without -safe-string.

21:34 <Maelan> By the way, when will this flag be the default?

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21:35 <ely-se> totally forgot to add this channel on my home computer!

21:36 <dmbaturin> Maelan: If it's string -> string -> string for you and you are using the latest version, I think it already is. :)

21:37 <Denommus> somehow utop has bytes -> bytes -> bytes, though

21:37 <Denommus> unless I use -safe-string

21:39 <Maelan> dmbaturin, in fact I had Batteries enabled in my .ocamlinit, when removing it I get string -> string -> string with -safe-string and bytes -> bytes -> bytes without.

21:40 <Maelan> So it was Batteries redefining standard functions…

21:40 <companion_cube> batteries tends to put lots of stuff in its Pervasives module :/

21:40 <Maelan> (tried with String.concat too, so it’s not only Pervasives)

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21:42 <companion_cube> you can use batteries without opening it, btw

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21:43 <shastacen> # #load zarith.cma

21:43 <shastacen> Cannot find zarith.cma

21:43 <shastacen> How can I load zarith into my ocaml toplevel?

21:43 <companion_cube> #require "zarith"

21:43 <companion_cube> if you have ocamlfind installed

21:44 <ollehar> #use topfind?

21:44 <shastacen> Wront type of argument for directive 'use' ?

21:44 <companion_cube> #use "topfind";;

21:44 <companion_cube> #require "zarith";;

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21:45 <shastacen> sweet you guys are awesome

21:45 <companion_cube> bonus tip: with Zarith you can write things like Z.(a + b * c) using the Z.( ) local open

21:46 <Maelan> companion_cube, yes, but I often find it more convenient, and as I’m willing it will be more or less standardized some day, I treat it as such and try to get used to it.

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21:46 <companion_cube> as you want :-)

21:48 <shastacen> Can I write toplevel directives in the file?

21:48 <Maelan> I am not afraid of depending on Batteries even if it is only for List.init.

21:48 <shastacen> appears not

21:49 <Maelan> But I know than not everyone agrees on whether we should augment the standard lib and whether Batteries is a good candidate.

21:50 <companion_cube> many people want to extend the stdlib, but it's a complicated topic

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21:52 <ely-se> I want an AWK-Eiffel-OCaml hybrid.

21:52 <ely-se> my three favourite programming languages

21:52 <Maelan> However, most of the time I only use Batteries for simple functions missing in the standard lib with no good reason, like missing analogous (eg. List.init which is the missing analogous to Array.init).

21:53 <companion_cube> you could give containers a try 0:-)

21:53 <Maelan> I was sure you’ll say that. :-)

21:53 <companion_cube> :P

21:53 <companion_cube> well if it's only for a few functions

21:54 <Maelan> Does containers define general-purpose functions of this kind?

21:54 <companion_cube> sure

21:56 <Maelan> The other Batteries’ feature that I find of great interest (although I do not use it for now) is the unified interface for dealing with containers (the Enum stuff).

21:56 <companion_cube> sure, there are iterators in most stdlibs now

21:56 <Maelan> Again, I believe you have something similar in your containers library?

21:57 <companion_cube> yes, mostly Sequence

21:57 <companion_cube> less powerful but much faster than Enum

21:57 <Maelan> What are the differences?

22:00 <companion_cube> Enum can implement merge/zip/map2 (lock step iteration on several iterators)

22:00 <companion_cube> otoh, Enum is very complex, and quite slow (benchmarks: https://lists.forge.ocamlcore.org/pipermail/batteries-devel/2014-January/001917.html)

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22:04 <Maelan> Is the perf issue inherent to how Enum is conceived or can it be made faster?

22:06 <companion_cube> it's hard to solve because Enum tries to do a lot of things

22:06 <companion_cube> (if you look at the implementation)

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