<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: You deserve a post with all that picutres :)
<wpwrak>
i'll post to the list when i have the other side of it, too
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atmega8u2.lib (PB2): end list of pin names with a slash if wrapped http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b323100
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb-pgm: programming adapter that connects to the Universal Breakout Board http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/4521837
<wpwrak>
this one :)
<tuxbrain>
Universal breakout board :) will be UBB a new standard? :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: it simplifies the making of things that connect to the ben. now you just need an UBB, a bit of ribbon cable, and the board/adapter you connect to (or go straight to a crimped connector with it)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: kinda the "poor man's version" of wolfgang's breakout cable :)
<tuxbrain>
soldering pads of the ubb are too narrow for my taste , I was the designer I had enlarger that end or put some kind of female connector, but yes , the combo ubb+ribon cable seem a good solution for DIY crowd  , and surelly more afordabel than wolfgans's breakout cable
<tuxbrain>
if I was the designer
<tuxbrain>
I will talk with him to go straigh ahead with that , and offer them on the shop
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: the pads are at 50 mil, just like the ribbon cable. doesn't get easier to solder ;-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: peel the cable, maybe trim and tin the wires, superglue the cable to the landing area, wait a bit, then solder the wire ends. done.
<tuxbrain>
yeah, it's sound easy until you realize on the size of a 8:10 card :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: it's just a piece of pcb. you can find a pcb house for it yourself :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (easy) small doesn't necessarily mean difficult ;-)
<tuxbrain>
yes that's the idea, but if we go this way, maybe the wolfgans' cable loss it's sense
<tuxbrain>
that's why I want to talk with wolfspraul
<wpwrak>
ah, i see
<tuxbrain>
I think he will agree, he has a lot of other things to do, in addition is chinese new year so even if he want to do something he can't right now
<rjeffries>
UBB rocks wpwrak
<rjeffries>
to do an efficient PCB run at a board house I think we need a maytix of a bunch of UBBs
<rjeffries>
with drawing showing where to make the snap apart zones (I do not know correct lingo)
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain are you here
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yes, you'd want to make a panel. the pcb house may also be able to do this for you.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the only difficulty is the precise outline of the 8:10 card
<rjeffries>
how well is that shown in the KiCad file?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: also, you probably want to make around 1000 pieces or more. otherwise, the setup cost is something like 90% of the price.
<rjeffries>
anuhow you are on a roll. do you consider the uart 8:10 as being good to go now?
<wpwrak>
the kicad file has the exact outline
<rjeffries>
wpwrak  understood. wonder how much pcb place will charge to mill out the ofset part
<wpwrak>
the uart isn't fully tested yet. also, one thing to consider is whether it should have zener diodes on the tx/rx lines, in case someone connects a 5V (or worse) source
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: calculate USD 500-1000 if doing it in the US
<rjeffries>
oh yes good thought and my gut says yes. smebody will screw up and that will I think blow the Ben
<rjeffries>
you mean 500-1000 final BOB 810 right? might be a panel that has woo small images on it that break apart?
<wpwrak>
not sure if 5 V through an I/O pin will do much to it. Ron should be ~100 Ohm, and it has to go through at least one diode, so that's another ~0.5 V. but you never know ...
<rjeffries>
you can tell I am not an EE
<wpwrak>
BOB ?
<B_Lizzard>
Not me, sorry,
<rjeffries>
I was thinking that uart 8:10 might be even better wuth RJ45 female connector. thos are cheap
<rjeffries>
but yout 3 prong connector ain't bad either
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the USD 500-1000 are based on a quite i ran on 4pcb.com. for quantities 1-1000.
<wpwrak>
rj45 is huge
<rjeffries>
cool for this board or other?
<wpwrak>
you want this to be very small, so that the mechanical forces don't get out of hand
<wpwrak>
(quote) for UBB.
<rjeffries>
the BOB-8:10 should end up at what? %1 USD
<rjeffries>
$1usd
<wpwrak>
at 1000 pieces, it would be .... about USD 1.08 :)
<wpwrak>
less if you want to wait > 1 week
<rjeffries>
a week is nothing
<rjeffries>
would those be cut apart and milled to the right shape?
<wpwrak>
that's the question :) they should be able to cut them properly. but it's very demanding, so you'd have to ask them about their abilities.
<wpwrak>
well, let me rephrase this: i'm pretty sure that they can do it. the question is just if it costs extra :)
<rjeffries>
how well specified is that. Oh I assume it costs extra. an extra step
<rjeffries>
what does that notch do on 8:10 is it a detent?
<wpwrak>
it's a visual marker to indicate where you should slow down with the coating
<wpwrak>
doesn't look too great, though. well, it would serve its purpose.
<rjeffries>
I understand that wiyj uart or atBEN bit not for BOB
<wpwrak>
(coating) that is, if you choose to apply some.
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand what it connects to.
<wpwrak>
the 8 pos variant is a bit exotic. 10 pos should be more common. so just use a wider cable and cut off two signals.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul I am puzzled why you don't get it that extending the SPI signals to where a DIY person can muck about is awesome
<wolfspraul>
I try to understand what that means. I am listening to Beethoven's Waldstein sonata on my ben now, it's very clear to me what that is. Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned :-)
<wolfspraul>
but I will get it eventually
<wolfspraul>
(the ubb I mean)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the GPIOs plus power. not necessarily SPI :)
<rjeffries>
the design on uart 8:10 uses smt as YOu pointed out to me. so UBB extends toe Nen GPIos to where anybody
<wolfspraul>
also I try to understand what makes more sense from a packaging standpoint. the ubb alone, or the ubb plus wire soldered to it already.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the idea is simply to separate the difficult/unique part from the more common part. ribbon cables are well known and people generally know how to handle them
<rjeffries>
can build a board that uses serial connection to Ben
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: you mean serial connection with the ubb, without additional ic?
<wolfspraul>
that was my thought, but werner killed it (too slow)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i was aiming to keep the production cost down. UBB is what comes right out of the PCB fab. repackage, ship, done ;-)
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, we can add it to every ben
<rjeffries>
NO. it is a non-starter electronically. you need a couple of chips. this ain't rocket science
<rjeffries>
and if you don't like UBB that is ok. it is a free world
<wolfspraul>
but I try to understand how all these different boards and cables connect together. and what people will then do with them.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (serial) you could use SPI. that would be faster than UART, because the ben can dictate the clock.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yeah, i have a lot of little boards now ;-)
<rjeffries>
mu vision is as follows: atBen we all understand
<wolfspraul>
I can throw a ubb into every ben box, no problem. I am thinking about adding a second battery also (different subject).
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (ubb) your distributors may prefer little bags with 10 or so :)
<wolfspraul>
in fact I would have added the second battery in the last batch if I would have had the idea earlier. when I had the idea it was too late because lead-time was 3 weeks and I had some orders to fill.
<rjeffries>
uart 8:10 gives one a righeos serial to connect to GPSm and and numver of other bards
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for each project you connect to, you'd make you custom adapter, with UBB on one end
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: yes, the uart board (with uart ic)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: that is, unless you need to integrate (atben or my uart project)
<wolfspraul>
well, but the ubb is cut off (the pcb), so placing the following ics on the same pcb as the uart/ben-wpan do is much nicer, no?
<wpwrak>
need/wish :)
<rjeffries>
the UBB does not belong in BEN box because many people do not need it
<rjeffries>
it belongs in an experimentes kit
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes, it's much nicer. but also harder to do.
<wolfspraul>
sure but it costs 20 cents, let's say nothing
<wolfspraul>
but yes, the real question is where does this lead and what is the right way to sell it (in which package/kit)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: UBB is only relevant for DIYers.
<wolfspraul>
what is it that the diyers do themselves then?
<rjeffries>
that is your question. you approach this as if copyleft does not mean that the tuxcrain s or others do not start making little add-ons
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: those that are sufficiently tooled up may not need it either (e.g., if they make integrated boards anyway)
<wolfspraul>
oh sure that's great. I never do something I don't understand anyway.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: they do the rest of the circuit :)
<rjeffries>
think about Asafruit. You dislike them am Sparkfun and one would assume dANGEROUS pROTOTYPES AND sEED sTUDIOS
<wolfspraul>
dislike? man, if anybody is paranoid it's you.
<rjeffries>
BUT THOSE ARE ALL HEALTL (sorr for vcap accidentaiL\\
<wolfspraul>
those are (afaik) all 3 great businesses
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes, so the ones that can make boards themselves won't need ubb. and the ones that want uart or 802.15.4 don't need it either.
<wolfspraul>
which means I don't know which cases remain for ubb proper.
<rjeffries>
so what is it soi hard for you to wrap your (smart!) mind around boards like UBB and uart 8:10.
<wolfspraul>
I fully understand uart 8:10. I am trying to understand ubb.
<rjeffries>
oh that is crap. making ubb by hand as a one off is a pain in the ass
<rjeffries>
I'd much rather pay say $5usd or more and be done with it
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: UBB would be for those who want to connect a DIY project to the ben
<wolfspraul>
nobody would make one ubb by hand, if they can do that they would make something more integrated right away.
<rjeffries>
I woul NOT burden the Ben with the extra cost
<rjeffries>
whatever
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: so typically ubb would lead to a breadboard?
<rjeffries>
you do not care to cater to DIY hobbyist that is OK.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for example, yes
<rjeffries>
breadboad is prolly best example
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: relax :)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: maybe I actually care what those hobbyists do, rather than selling into their cluelessness.
<rjeffries>
so if you wnat to make it better, add the cable, put the right connector on other end for breadboard and charge I dunno $20
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: or some other circuit they have. e.g., an arduino or such should have signals (SPI or similar) this could connect to
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: yes but we had the breakout cable already, in fact I already made 10 and gave them away here and there.
<rjeffries>
ok so I am clueless I don;t care what you say aboy that
<wolfspraul>
so the ubb seems like a step back from that, unless there are use cases I overlook/don't understand.
<rjeffries>
you have a valid focus ther are other viewpoints
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the UBB is a small step backwards from the cable you made, correct
<rjeffries>
which part of connect to a breadboard do you not understand? it is so obvious
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's a more focussed variation of the same theme if you want
<rjeffries>
just because YOU don't want doesnt mean that engineering students would not
<wolfspraul>
argh :-)
<wolfspraul>
ron, relax.
<rjeffries>
I am nbaffled
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: where's /ignore when you need it, eh ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we did a breakout cable before, do you know?
<wolfspraul>
I am just trying to understand ubb.
<rjeffries>
I do not know that what did it cost
<wolfspraul>
I paid 800 RMB for 10. so that's 12 USD / piece.
<wolfspraul>
street job, no documentation nothing
<wolfspraul>
but they made the cables
<rjeffries>
ok. was it 9:10 at one end?
<wolfspraul>
for example I gave 3 to mirko vogt at 27c3, and he is working to hookup a hoperf module with them
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: UBB is a building block that's easy to manufacture very cheaply and in arbitrary numbers. so you don't have to make (relatively) expensive cables.
<rjeffries>
so ubb does that but will be cheaper by a factpor of 10
<wolfspraul>
he changed the 100 mil connector to a little board, then soldered it to the hoperf module
<wolfspraul>
as he told me yesterday he is now able to talk to remote controllable power switches
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i also had the impression that you had a bit given up on the cables
<tuxbrain>
calm down guys, wolfspraul I thing is not good idea to put in NN by default, but is a good addon to sell separartly
<tuxbrain>
the first use I see of UBB is as Atmega flasher, wpwrak has demonstrate is posible
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: one of the nice things about UBB is that you can still make it cheaply if you don't have direct access to the chinese street workforce ;-)
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain anything that increases cost of ben hrst sharism
<rjeffries>
s/hrst/hurts
<tuxbrain>
I was disposed to finance the production of some hundreds of this one
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: don't think of UBB as a PCB, think of it as a connector. a bridge between Ben and DIY
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain good on you will you build in Europe or??
<tuxbrain>
whatever is more economical and quick
<kyak>
if you put it into Ben by default, wouldn't Ben lose its microSD capability?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (flasher) yup. that's what i'll use it for. just instead of having a custom 8:10 board plus a custom other end, like i did for the silabs chip, i split the two.
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain hav eyou started shopping it around? I assume there are proto PCB fabs in Spain?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (increases the cost) au contraire :-) whatever accessory can be sold in addition to the ben HELPS sharism and the distributors ;-)
<tuxbrain>
yes they are I have contacted for another project that finally doesn't see the sun light but i thing I will conctact them again
<rjeffries>
wpwrak yes AGREE wolfspraul had mentione just throwing ubb in Benevery ben box. that increases Ben COGS by a follar or so
<rjeffries>
distributors love accessories
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: please tellme that follar-> dolar
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain yes s/follar/dollar
<tuxbrain>
follar= fuck in spanish :P
<rjeffries>
oh good I learned something new!!!!
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: I am thinking, trying to understand. so I ask myself questions, like "what if I would add this to every ben?" (and many other questions)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: "COGS" ... follar ... ;-)
<wolfspraul>
you are reading things into this, don't know why. this is a discussion channel.
<rjeffries>
good wolfspraul that's why ypu run sharism and whatever you do will be fine by me
<rjeffries>
COGS cost of goods sold but you already know that
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you could add it as a sample, like a sticker, if you want. or as a teaser ;-)
<tuxbrain>
Please don't :(
<tuxbrain>
This is like to mark whole NN as DIY thing and that is not
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain can make an extra several USD with this litt;e board
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: since the boards should be quite cheap, it would make sense to sell them in larger packs. also, because people who use one will probably want more. (e.g., for different projects, project variants, and so on)
<tuxbrain>
Sell this apart, cheap but apart
<rjeffries>
nods to tuxbrain
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: +1 to the multiple pieces kit, for those prolific that will need more than one
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain that would imply someone with multiple NNhow common is that?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: with <10, overhead would dominate the price anyway :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: see above :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: most DIYers make more than one project in their lifetime :)
<tuxbrain>
example: 1 UBB+piece of ribon=3¬, 10 UBB =5¬
<tuxbrain>
and a roll of ribonn cable sold separatly
<tuxbrain>
50 UBB=20¬ 100=30¬ and so on
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: and they refine their projects, too.
<rjeffries>
whatever. DIY is not a dirty word in my worl. it is not central focus og NN but can provide extra sales
<tuxbrain>
price is totally orientative until I know the cost of the UBB and Ribon cable but you got the idea
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: we can glue one on the outside of the box :-)
<rjeffries>
I talked with a grad student EE and he was quite interested in NN used in lab and as a master for a small conytol system
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: not sure what price point you get with the UBB board (PCB cost alone). may be in the 0.5-1 EUR range.
<wolfspraul>
I have seen business cards of IC sales people where they glued an actual IC onto the business card. pretty cool I think :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: nice :)
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: please stop free additions to BNN :)
<rjeffries>
now that wpwrak and others have opened Ben to interfacing to outside stuff, it opens many doors
<wolfspraul>
we have a lot of boards now. ubb, the old Ornotermes inspired 8:10 breakout cable ending in a 100 mil header. the new 8:10 uart. atben.
<rjeffries>
atBen is your wireless lifeline
<wolfspraul>
and if mirko gets something with hoperf to work really well, maybe we should make a little 8:10 board that has the hoperf module soldered onto it on the outside
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i wouldn't worry too much about the uart for now
<wolfspraul>
why not?
<rjeffries>
the old Ornoterms breakout is prolly for him only
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: 1) not done yet, 2) probably less useful than UBB
<tuxbrain>
yes I agree and I am very happy with that, but we don't have to miss the point that BNN is not a DIY, but it can become handy for DIY guys and it can atract good HW hackers to the Qi-Hardware scene
<rjeffries>
Ben needs hardwrae people
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, and 3) harder to make (SMT)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: UBB is minimum investment for maximum return ;-)
<rjeffries>
BNN is right now an unconnected Linux system
<rjeffries>
atBen + atUSB give it a wireless link
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: I dissagree, don't  trow away the 8:10 UART
<rjeffries>
UBB lets me build any damn thing I want to
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: i didn't say "throw it away". just to give it a low priority for now
<tuxbrain>
mmmmmm
<wolfspraul>
oh, and we have the old 8:10 to full-size adapters I gave away as Qi christmas gifts in 2009
<tuxbrain>
if is in change of bost the atben ok
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: that is my actual breackout board now :)
<wolfspraul>
and the fpc variant of them to wrap around the ben
<rjeffries>
so who cares if Uart plus directly in, or is on seperate NanoPod (TM, rjeffries;)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: e.g., i won't do anything on the uart before atusb is done :)
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul what is fpv ??
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: agree in your work path
<Ornotermes>
rjeffries: my breakout board is made with DIY in mind, but there is nothing stoping you or anyone else to manufacture and sell them
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: when I return from fosdem I will contact my local pcb maker to quot for UBB
<wolfspraul>
Ornotermes: you mean your cable? I had 10 made at some point as giveaways.
<rjeffries>
I know that. need to understand tradeoff of yor design vs the wpwrak UBB
<wolfspraul>
actually I am just now searching the one I thought I left to myself, but cannot find it :-)
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: yes. nice :)
<tuxbrain>
I think wpwrak UBB approach is the most quick and efficient
<rjeffries>
I do like wpwrak way to attach cable with superglue
<tuxbrain>
I have to test myself how "easy" is to solder to finally make me decide
<rjeffries>
not sure best way to handle the breadboard end of the ribbon cable
<tuxbrain>
if I attach some kind of connector or not
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain understood but that drives cost up due to connector cost and assembly.
<wolfspraul>
too bad cannot find my cable anymore. maybe I gave away one too much.
<rjeffries>
after 18 monyjs BNN is well understood as a linux small pocket computer
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: you have most overview in all these cables, and their applications.
<wolfspraul>
and you also sell arduinos
<rjeffries>
having it ALSO serve in lab environments is all good
<wolfspraul>
so maybe I first focus on the 802.15.4 boards, make 100 of them
<wolfspraul>
then I want to run them through some tests like we did with milkymist one
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul I did not thing atBen was even a question
<wolfspraul>
they are definitely intentional radiators, that's a new level for us
<Ornotermes>
wolfspraul: Whan about a Benduino, an arduino shaped card that can both talk to ben and be programmed directly from it?
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: ok you deal with atben, I deal with UBB
<Ornotermes>
might catch some interest from new groups
<rjeffries>
well the complexity of that is about 100x UBB but whatever
<wolfspraul>
sounds good
<wolfspraul>
also right now I will not make more breakout cables, and werner just said above to hold back on the uart one for a while
<tuxbrain>
Ornotermes: this can be theoretically be done directly with a UBB board and SPI protocol
<rjeffries>
Ormotermes that is the direction that will interest many people
<Ornotermes>
tuxbrain: i know, thats the whole point :)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: I can make ubb in a heartbeat. we are discussing how to best parallelize things among us, and how to find actual valuable use cases as quick as possible.
<rjeffries>
wolspraul so you wnat to pass on UBB even though it is simple
<rjeffries>
do you agree of use case for UBB now
<wolfspraul>
of course. do you think I should do something simply because it is simple?
<tuxbrain>
no it don't pass we share the work that must be done
<wolfspraul>
yeah :-)
<wolfspraul>
I am focusing on the milkymist one rc3 run, and then as a second job on the atben and atusb boards.
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: fine :)
<wolfspraul>
I can make some more breakout cables, no problem. but I would like to understand the bigger picture, especially how someone like tuxbrain can sell them.
<rjeffries>
wolfgang I am going to bed. ok too many things on  your plate. tuxbrain let us know how soon you can build ubb
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: did you get one of those Ornotermes breakout cables I made?
<tuxbrain>
nop
<wolfspraul>
maybe mirko still has one he can give away and send to you
<tuxbrain>
but I don't like the final price it reach
<wolfspraul>
in the end those are all small variations of the same thing over and over
<wolfspraul>
unless we integrate an ic (uart) or a ic+antenna (802.15.4)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: that's a price for making 10 pieces
<tuxbrain>
I know
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul do you have an approx number of Bens now in USA
<wolfspraul>
in the whole world nobody can beat that. of course my own time is zero (it's a street job so it has some overhead on my end).
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: you will have the price problem with all those boards.
<wolfspraul>
the real issue is not the bom, it's the number of boards you make.
<wolfspraul>
if you make 1000, you will have a good price.
<wolfspraul>
below that it gets painful for someone.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: roughly 400
<rjeffries>
so what will you sell the street 8:q0 cable for wolfspraul
<wolfspraul>
I think 12 USD per piece to make 10 of them is awesome.
<tuxbrain>
I think I can have 100 UBB for 120-150¬ here in spain so no shiping no vat added
<rjeffries>
but you must mark them up so I assume sell at $25
<wolfspraul>
ubb yes, that's just a pcb. you can also try batchpcb.com or pcbcart.com
<rjeffries>
I am noodling about doing a batch in USA
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: I give it away, because no matter which way I turn this, I cannot make a business out of it.
<rjeffries>
would not make economic sense to ship outside usa
<tuxbrain>
well, is a maketing strategy to do them in spain also
<wolfspraul>
I mean those 10 I made.
<rjeffries>
I understand wolfspraul
<wolfspraul>
it's just for fun, on the side, see whether some sparks of creativity or insanity show up somewhere...
<rjeffries>
the other thought is how doe we find an entire new market(s) for BNN
<rjeffries>
once it can be interfaces, life changes
<wolfspraul>
slowly we are building a nice set of 'stuff' on the 8:10 side
<wolfspraul>
just someone needs to see the big marketable package somewhere, and go for it
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: there is only one way, improving software
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: definitely, ben software needs to support all this stuff out of the box
<wolfspraul>
no recompiling kernel, not even installing this or that package
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: patched avrdude form wpwrak should be a must when ubb is ready
<wolfspraul>
I have to work on categorizing file uploads in the wiki.
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain that is happening but I would argue that BNN is good enough now for the stuff I see wher eit is a cheap dedicated master for a sensor/actuator Pod
<rjeffries>
a NanoPod(tm)
<wolfspraul>
cannot find all those pics of 8:10 boards and cables. 2900 file uploads, most of them uncategorized of course :-)
<rjeffries>
good night all. I aplogize for meing enthusiastic about what wpwrak is doing.
<wolfspraul>
we are all
<rjeffries>
I will try to do better. wolfspraul whne will you resond to my email of yesterday?
<wolfspraul>
just saw it (old email address)
<wolfspraul>
chinese new year here
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (batchpcb) they only do 1.6 mm boards. you need 0.8 mm for UBB.
<wolfspraul>
year of rabbit
<rjeffries>
what is correct email pls
<wolfspraul>
bottle of australian red wine next to me. do you really want me to reply now?
<rjeffries>
no
<wolfspraul>
wolfgang@sharism.cc
<rjeffries>
ok sorry for my mistake
<rjeffries>
good night
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
no mistake
<wolfspraul>
I should setup a forward
<wolfspraul>
n8
<tuxbrain>
australian... common nothing like spanish wines man
<wolfspraul>
one for spain!
<wolfspraul>
next time!
<wpwrak>
spanish wines are nice ... for europe :)
<rjeffries>
if you desire a decent bottle of wine I live in wine country. although I do understand wines from Argintina are drinkable;)
<rjeffries>
ciao and ducks
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: maybe the main attraction of ubb is that it can be made at cheap per-unit prices in low volume, low meaning 100-500 units.
<wolfspraul>
like you said you think you can make 100 for 150 EUR
<wolfspraul>
see whether that drives some NanoNote sales, or whether a bigger use cases emerges that a lot of people go for
<wolfspraul>
then you can first assemble a set for those people, and at a later point also make more integrated boards.
<tuxbrain>
wolfspraul: yes, low risk and if for whatever reason we succeed and ther is demand for a more finished cable we can move forward but ubb idea is a good thing to start
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
makes sense
<wolfspraul>
I will not make 1000 8:10 breakout cables just into the blue, so you can buy 20 from me for 3 USD.
<wolfspraul>
there are too many variations of this stuff, and the risk that I end up with lots of unsold items of this or that breakout solution is too high.
<wolfspraul>
and you will probably not want to buy 1000 either.
<wolfspraul>
ubb may break through that blockage
<tuxbrain>
plus shiping .... I donk think it gonna happen
<wolfspraul>
at 1000 shipping should be OK too
<tuxbrain>
I think the most cleaver is to do it here localy and sold as kit
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
then see which use cases emerge
<wolfspraul>
optimize the kit on your end
<tuxbrain>
yes when we reach the 1k need  sure china will be better source
<wolfspraul>
smt and testing are nasty at low volumes
<wolfspraul>
testing is actually really bad, maybe a lot of those little somethings are not tested very well actually. don't know.
<tuxbrain>
ubb kit = ubb pcd + piece of ribbon cable+ 8 pins female-male conector for breadboard
<wolfspraul>
if I make breakout cables, I need to setup a test station and software, and someone has to test them all, which takes time. then the inevitable failed boards need to be fixed.
<wolfspraul>
nothing can be simple enough to not need testing. well who knows, maybe ubb proves that wrong? :-)
<wolfspraul>
good thing it is such a simple pcb. there can be so many things wrong with pcbs...
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: does it even make sense to add ribbon cable and connector ? you can't put a huge margin on these, and they should be very easy to source anywhere.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (testing and ubb) if your pcb maker has a yield of anything less than 99.9% on that board, you'll really have to wonder ... :)
<wolfspraul>
I have stopped wondering.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak:Â Â the most sold item from my shop is the arduino workshop kit, is just a bag with components that you can source any where, but people like it all toguether
<wolfspraul>
everything that can fail will fail eventually.
<wpwrak>
well, i could imagine the cnc tool breaking. but they'll notice this :-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: okay ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I understand. this pcb is so simple maybe really nothing can go wrong.
<wolfspraul>
but with a more normal pcb with more layers, microvias etc. many many things can go wrong.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the trickiest part will be to get the first one made. i.e., a) find a pcb maker that accepts it, and b) also delivers something that works. the mechanical tolerances are quite small.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: do you have a link or the denomitaion for that ribon cable to find the same on my normal component provider?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: lemme look it up on digi-key ....
<tuxbrain>
for 8 pin connector I have those sourced for Arduino
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: another advantage of my street jobs. the use case is communicated orally, and they can try it out themselves (they know I will return it if it doesn't fit). They can fall back to files or any other manual trick to get those 10 made and sold to me :-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: i.e., the board edge (after cutting) is at the _center_ of the board edge line.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: if they don't offset the tool, the board will be too small. if they offset the tool by the tool radius plus half the edge line width, the board will be slightly too big (0.127 mm)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: if they offset by just the tool radius, it will be perfect.
<tuxbrain>
I don't undesrtand nothing of what you said but I hope the pcb maker will
<tuxbrain>
ok offset by the tool radious
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: i've never had a PCB commercially made, so i don't know how they work. may need some iterations to get those bits straight.
<tuxbrain>
well they can compare with an actual uSD
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: we can give them the measures ;-) 9.6 mm wide at the connector, 11.0 mm wide total. the length isn't so critical.
<wpwrak>
(at the connector) i mean the contacts. the narrowest part.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (bottle of wine) oh, right ! feb 3 is new year's day. happy new year ! ;-)
<tuxbrain>
mmm another topic... BNN+UBB=6bits logic analizer?
<tuxbrain>
and also with arduino ADC +GNUplot simple osciloscope .... uff stop procarstinating and do the ugly work tuxbrain!!!!
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: thanks! fireworks all around, Chinese do know how to party...
<kristianpaul>
fireworks :-)
<kristianpaul>
(they only have basic stuff, but their prices are incredible) same here, well at least ribbon cable is cheap, thats something i'll never buy from digikey, but who knows
<kristianpaul>
(ubb), who needs that? :-)
<tuxbrain_away>
yeah real man do his own pcbs ... with a lighter and a nail
<kristianpaul>
Just jump to a 8:10 based board from Werner desgins and make something usefull.. thats better i think
<kristianpaul>
prototype will no be an excuse for ubb, thats why i think
<kristianpaul>
may be a breakout board in wich you can solder a smat like product ir RFMB12, or some ethernet breakout.. seems more viable for prototyping, at leasy keep you our of troubles from the 8:10 mechanical part ;-)
<kristianpaul>
but anyway.. i jus started to dream again :-)
<tuxbrain_away>
make it biger will only bring mechanical issues, you better create your prototipe you own pcb or in a breadborad and solder or plug the ribon cable, and if it works then go to design a more integrated solution, isn't it a right way of doing things?
<kristianpaul>
[ot] nice, kepler in some years will be more valuable, damn that nasa dont publish telemetry as such us data from their space stuff
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: right way is go straight to PCB i think
<kristianpaul>
oh right, i must leave to work, read you in some hrs again :-)
<wolfspraul>
if the main point of ubb is the price, and the fact that it is pcb only, one could still argue to make it bigger and leave footprints for 'different things' on the outside.
<wolfspraul>
different things being maybe different types of headers that people might have, or even some common ics like uart
<wolfspraul>
it's still a bare pcb then, but better starting point and will barely increase the price
<kristianpaul>
like ben based game using and external acelerometer, (take that iphone !! ;))
<tuxbrain_away>
I'm worrried about mechanical pain, not "allowing" to put more than a cable for me is the best solution to avoid this....
<tuxbrain_away>
if docking was more solid, I will totally agree on create such a 8:10 breadboard , only with the 8:10 as only atachmentpoint.... I don't see it clear.
<wolfspraul>
I agree it's fragile, very fragile, but to understand what that means one would need to think about the actual use case.
<wolfspraul>
I guess you are not trying to wire up a mobile computing solution that you can wear on you while jogging.
<wolfspraul>
if it's just a quick connection for 20 seconds to reflash something, mechanical stability shouldn't matter much.
<wolfspraul>
also the question is how tolerant the software on both sides is to interruptions.
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: I trust you will really try this out and push forward only stuff that actually works :-)
<wolfspraul>
so many products are just a 'good idea', but once you try it in real life you find out the (often fatal) downsides quickly. let's not do that.
<wpwrak>
(mechanical) that would also be my concern. also, what do you put on a "general purpose" experiment board ? through-hole components ? that would certainly overload the poor little 8:10 card slot.
<tuxbrain>
mmm I'm traying to flash nn but I can't !!
<tuxbrain>
Error - can't claim XBurst interface: could not claim interface 0: No such file or directory
<tuxbrain>
lsusb reports Bus 001 Device 008: ID 601a:4740
<tuxbrain>
I'm doing it under root
<wolfspraul>
strange error. when did you last flash successfully and what has changed since then?
<wolfspraul>
the ben still boots?
<roh>
steve|m: hrhr.. and they didnt understand what project B was... funny.. we didnt either first ;)
<tuxbrain>
ben boots yes,
<wolfspraul>
roh: it's sad to see it all go down like this. whole foss approach is discredited for phones thanks to om.
<roh>
wolfspraul: only for the clueless
<roh>
wolfspraul: most foss users i know have a N900 now. seems to be the only platform which gives you a rootshell without much work
<wolfspraul>
nah, perceptions are strong and this one will last for a while, unfortunately. it's not even over yet, gta04...
<roh>
still its fscking slow due to bad sw
<roh>
wolfspraul: continuing the openmoko naming or concept path is fail by design in my eyes.
<wolfspraul>
the way things look right now, I don't give meego more than 2 years.
<roh>
both were impressivly bad
<wolfspraul>
nokia doesn't have the strength anymore to introduce 'another' Linux into the industry
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately, because their Linux would have been better than the other one
<wolfspraul>
the jury is still out and I very much hope they can make it, but things don't look good
<roh>
if nokia cant do it in the phone market it will get tough.
<roh>
because there are only smaller player
<roh>
s
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: just reboot your host and ben, did you try that yet? still have the problem?
<wolfspraul>
try another host
<wolfspraul>
try another ben :-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't remember seeing that particular bug before, sounds like either something on the usb side of the host, or a problem with the stage1/stage2 binaries that are uploaded to the Ben for usbboot flashing.
<roh>
bbl.. need to go print manuals now (still need somebody to pay me my color laserprinter!)
<tuxbrain>
ok was the usb port, changing that seems that solves the issue. flashing ...
<B_Lizzard>
tuxbrain, does it work for you then?
<tuxbrain>
B_Lizzard: impresive new jlime graphics dude
<tuxbrain>
the splash screen, the icons,  really goood
<B_Lizzard>
I'll ask xiangfu or kristoffer if they can make me a silent bootloader with a splash screen
<tuxbrain>
but I find it a litlle bit more slow than usual... (or maybe is that I have not time to play with NN for a while)
<B_Lizzard>
So that the boot process is cleaner
<B_Lizzard>
It's slower to boot on NAND than it is on MicroSD
<tuxbrain>
mmm the miss the swap thing, that will improve a little the performace
<roh>
*sigh* ... these copyshops are crazy
<tuxbrain>
terminal font also has to be reviwed, a little blurry
<B_Lizzard>
Ah, if you have your swap partition on the second partition of the MicroSD card it'll mount it automatically
<roh>
'no i did not want to buy the machine' was my answer before i left
<B_Lizzard>
Everyone says it's blurry
<B_Lizzard>
You old farts
<roh>
tuxbrain: i will never be 'sharp' . but thats not the font. thats the display
<roh>
it does have a RGBRGB... \nBGRBGR..., screen
<B_Lizzard>
Well, the font is set in .Xdefaults, I can either make it bigger (*cringe*) or have a non-ttf font.
<roh>
so every second line has Red and Blue swapped in subpixel-position
<tuxbrain>
but I see it better in previouse releases
<tuxbrain>
and it's the same display
<B_Lizzard>
I'll ask rafa what he uses.
<roh>
eh. ttf font? stupid idea
<B_Lizzard>
Yeah, but it looks good for my 20/20 eyes.
<roh>
use a pixelfont. anything else lootks shitty on such resolutions
<B_Lizzard>
*cries*
<B_Lizzard>
Oh well, any recommendations?
<tuxbrain>
battery icon doesn't work yet isn't ?
<B_Lizzard>
It should work
<tuxbrain>
I will try with other batt
<B_Lizzard>
What's the problem?
<B_Lizzard>
It should change depending on the charge level and whether it's plugged in or no
<B_Lizzard>
t
<tuxbrain>
it mark 0% but is funny when I pull out the bat it says 80% :P
<tuxbrain>
mmm somethings wrong with kernel :(,  I can only read "Fatal exception in iterruptot syncin"
<B_Lizzard>
Must be the instability larsc was talking about
<B_Lizzard>
:/
<tuxbrain>
after UBI data offset
<B_Lizzard>
Looks good on my NN
<tuxbrain>
mmm it had booted once , why not now? stupid machine
<tuxbrain>
ok it boots whithout the usb plugged
<B_Lizzard>
Ugh
<tuxbrain>
yes it's reproducible , if I try to boot with usb plugged it fails
<tuxbrain>
booting only with bat no problem
<B_Lizzard>
USB plugged into PC?
<tuxbrain>
yep
<B_Lizzard>
Lemme see.
<tuxbrain>
booting only with cable also problem
<tuxbrain>
boting only with bat no problem
<B_Lizzard>
Heh, boots normally for me.
<B_Lizzard>
In any case, you can flash this kernel which doesn't have usb-net support
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb-pgm: changed pogo pad footprint from 60 mil diameter to 80 mil (PAD_80x80) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0e11d58
<zrafa>
roh: some mails from OM ML arrived.. did you do something for that? or miracle? :)
<wpwrak>
zrafa: the openmoko lists seem to be back :)
<kristianpaul>
btw androidstamp is intented to use Dalvik  as a basis for robotic platform
<kristianpaul>
cool, addint custom comands to rtems is not so hard, i need learn a bit more about tasks, but yaffs2 support seems so transparent thanks to the lekernel port :-)
<kristianpaul>
s/but/and
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: may be he dont want to get in inline competion with H:D ;-)
<wpwrak>
naw. we want to see a fight. with live video :)