<rjeffries>
wpwrak I assume tuxbrain  tuxbrain_away is asleeo. do you know ih he has pulled triger and made firm UBB order?
<phreakyhi>
Hello all, I have a USB drive that when inserted causes a bad_pool_header error. I am running xp, sp3. Is there a way to reformat the USB drive in safe mode or some other way to recover usefulness from the drive again?
<kyak>
dvdk: it's ok! hard to keep an eye on the rapidly growing number of packages :)
<dvdk>
ok, going off to be more productive :)Â Â cu
<wolfspraul>
kyak: (dvdk in absence) I knew you guys would point me to ugly hacks :-)
<wolfspraul>
but that's exactly why I feel good on that end, our priorities are correct
<wolfspraul>
we will find cleaner solutions for those (temporary) hacks, for sure
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yes, i think he has sent the order. didn't he mention it here ?
<wpwrak>
hmm, does anyone know some non-interactive Gerber editor ? i have a couple of lines in a footprint that i'd really love to get rid of, without changing the footprint
<wpwrak>
(of course, sed would be an option ...)
<wpwrak>
or a little perl script. hmm ...
<rjeffries>
wpwrak David sent me email. irc logs are great. I wish there was a toll to search acroos ,ultiple lohs, e.g. most recent N days.
<rjeffries>
wpwral said sed ,ight be a solution, That's eaht he sed
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i thought the search did span days ?
<wpwrak>
(sed) :)
<rjeffries>
if one is in a Ben application, is there a key to exit and retuen to launcher?
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul okgounf that ESC escapes thedgclock
<kristianpaul>
okgounf?
<rjeffries>
found ;)
<rjeffries>
now in settings do not know how to escape\
<rjeffries>
it's all good I am sure
<rjeffries>
Ben is like dungeons and dragons game: you are in a cave with many twisty passags
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: let's say that the user experience could often take some inspirations from apple ;-)
<rjeffries>
power button is my friend
<wpwrak>
one hidden benefit of having suffered through the windows experience may be under-exaggerated expectations :)
<rjeffries>
I am glad I have a good shop. O need to take a few sips of whisky, and go to grunder and grind down a finger for the cute litt;e Ben keyboard. I hope it is blood-resistant
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I sent email to UBB factory in Spain and told hime I'll order a 10-pack. Maybe I'll become hos USA distibutor, I dunno
<zrafa>
rjeffries: I guess that there is some way to exit from applications and coming back to menu
<rjeffries>
am in main GMU screen, would like to get to a shell, not clear how to do that
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (grind down a finger) yeah, the keyboard could use some improving. layout and maybe also on the haptic side. i hope we'll get a chance to do that.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (ubb factory) you mean you asked the spanish pcb fab to produce 10 units for you ? or do you mean you ordered ten from tuxbrain-the-company ?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak if there is ever a follow-on to Ben, my opinion is a new larger case will be essential
<rjeffries>
Tuxbrain I was trying to be funny, Davod now controls global UBB market
<rjeffries>
wpwrak even I am not dumb enough to order PCBs from a fab in Europe\
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (order from EU) oh, it's not impossible that you'd find competitive prices there. just that specific kind of transaction (10 units from somebody else's order) would be, erm, a little unusual :)
<rjeffries>
smiles sure
<rjeffries>
next week or so maybe I learn what USA UBB might cost to mfg.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (larger case) maybe 1 mm more thickness to accommodate a proper USB host receptacle. i really like the current form factor. anything bigger would have to compete in an entirely different class of devices and R&D costs would explode.
<rjeffries>
you make a good point
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (us cost) that would be great. the more data points we have, the better we're prepared to conduct future pcb orders.
<rjeffries>
I am aware that case is a big hurdle
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the main problem with the case at present is that we don't have an open process to make it
<rjeffries>
I have a talented mechanical engineer friend who has done a number of plastic designs for production in China
<rjeffries>
I understand totally
<rjeffries>
My thought i sto take scan data you created, as inout into a fresh design, new molds
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: all we can do is ask wolfgang to ask his business contacts in china to fab a bunch more, but we don't have the CAD data, we can't edit/modify it, and even if we could, changing the tooling would be expensive
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yup. that would be a good start
<rjeffries>
I understand all those issues. honest
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: if you look at my counterweight, that's basically how i designed it. started with the scan data for a first rough design, then optimized with trial and error
<rjeffries>
I assume wolfspraul can have as many shells produced as he needs. or he may have 10K he already bought I dunno
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (understand all issues) okay, just didn't know if you had followed that part
<rjeffries>
I understand the need to not go head to head with other products but...
<wpwrak>
i think he just buys complete devices. so one shell per device. maybe they could sell him bare shells, though.
<rjeffries>
but speaking ONLY for myself, and not having much time with Ben, it is like a Dancing Elephant
<rjeffries>
it is amazing that it even exists. but it will never do the Tango
<wpwrak>
i think there is still a lot we can do while staying close to the original ben design to make the device more useful
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I do NOT disagree at all
<wpwrak>
e.g., the screen should use more of the available space. that alone would make it quite a bit nicer, without needing a change in overall size
<rjeffries>
but the human interface of Ben is so constrained, it can IN MY OPINION never generate high volume sales
<wpwrak>
the keyboard could be simplified and its haptics improved, again without increasing the size
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you would be stuck with an akwark keyboard. and weak pointing capabilities
<wpwrak>
for an nice keyboard, look at the oqo 01/01+. it's very clean and simple, yet also very small
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I agree 1000 percent and realize that Ben is what it is. no problemo
<rjeffries>
oQo was so sweet. still availabe?
<rjeffries>
on a mainly UNRELATED note
<wpwrak>
ironically, the OQO has a *higher* key density than the ben ;-)
<rjeffries>
a parallel effort might involve a Nanonote derivaative that leverages the electronic design, with tweaks and additions,
<zrafa>
rjeffries: wpwrak: so finally we go to the past in the future :) NN of 2020 should be like HP Jornada 728 (talking just about keyboard, touchscreen, and dimensions :) )
<rjeffries>
and is packaged in a new very simple case that is targeted at control applications.
<wpwrak>
(oqo) i think the company went down. yuoi can probably still find them on ebay. dunno if the oqo 02 was any good. i have a 01 and a 01+. the batteries suck, of course, and one of the power supplies died, but the base unit is indestructible ;-)
<rjeffries>
Jornado was another sweet machine as was one of the Japanese devices that was similar\
<rjeffries>
today one would use a touch screen
<wpwrak>
zrafa: actually, my dream is the HP100LX ;-) a bit smaller than the jornada. clean and simple applications that put a lot of information on the screen. screen size was CGA.
<rjeffries>
back to SONN (son of Nanonote)
<rjeffries>
SONN(tm)Â Â smiles
<wpwrak>
zrafa: (HP100LX) i would steal the keyboard from the oqo, though. the hp keyboard was excellent, but also needs more space
<rjeffries>
no keyboard (use yiou fav USB keybaordm even on eof those roll-up thingies
<zrafa>
wpwrak: ;-)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I ask if hp100lx was sh3 arch
<zrafa>
I wonder*
<wpwrak>
naw, i think a built-in keyboard is a good thing to have. that way, you can edit anywhere and all the time. not only when you have your gadget bag with you
<zrafa>
wpwrak: my hp 660lx is sh3
<rjeffries>
is that same soc the Freerunner used??
<wpwrak>
zrafa: it was some 8088/8086. nec v20 or such. it ran DOS :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the Openmoko phones used Samsung S3C, ARM
<zrafa>
wpwrak: 8086 nice :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (japanese machines) maybe you mean the Sharp Zaurus
<wpwrak>
zrafa: it even had a PCMCIA slot :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak did or did not we have a early Ben that Carlos team layed out that included USB host and 64MB ram? I am almost postibe qrty 10 were produced\
<rjeffries>
Zaurus yes. pretty cool
<wpwrak>
zrafa: you needed that for storage. i had a 5 MB Flash card. bloody expensive back then.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: AVT2, yes
<rjeffries>
was it Kicad or not?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: not sure, but i think it wasn't
<rjeffries>
yeah prolly not
<rjeffries>
continuing
<rjeffries>
there could be a viable opportunity for a SONN that leverages a mor recnet Ingenic SOC, has USB Host, adds 2nd 8:10, and is NOT packaged in
<rjeffries>
shiny black injection molded case
<rjeffries>
do we think Ingenic SOC is in some way more open than say any of several ARM based SOCs?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (more recent soc) that seems to be difficult. there are some slightly better chips than the 4720, but they're all a sourcing risk
<rjeffries>
WARNING rjeffries as exceeded his quota. shutting down his transmissions
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: and then there's a more advanced new chip but its long-term status is still uncertain and it it said to be very different from the chip we currently have
<rjeffries>
;)
<rjeffries>
so current chip is a high volume product and as I recall costs under $3
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (no case) with the right numbers, everything is possible :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (high volume) yes, don't know the cost
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul has said around $3 for ingenic
<rjeffries>
so is AVT2 a viable starting point?
<rjeffries>
or maybe the SAKC but rip off FPGA. (I'd thibnk hard about an AVR to provide a bunch of digital and analog i/o
<rjeffries>
getting rid of built-in keyboard frees several GPIOs
<wpwrak>
i think avt2 could be a starting point, yes
<wpwrak>
(kbd) no, go to the 4740, which is the same chip as the 4720 but in a different package
<wpwrak>
you need to set the gpios aside for the keyboard anyway, even if you use a few boards without keyboard
<rjeffries>
oh yes, Ben uses a package that is a bit difficult
<wpwrak>
one could say that ;-)
<rjeffries>
oh i am headed a differen direction ;) assume external USB connected keyboard\
<rjeffries>
good huan interface cheap widely availble
<wpwrak>
and unpocketable
<kristianpaul>
wheeeaaa !!!, the laser cutter parts arived, now i must go and pickup then to the office :D
<kristianpaul>
arrived*
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: have fun ! :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak agree re not a pocket device
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.brd: increased board size by 0.1 mm on each side and relaxed layout http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/640195e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: reduced ridiculously long AVDD trace and cleaned up the area http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/771926f
<wpwrak>
this will be fun to look at once we have brdhost :)
<wpwrak>
s/host/hist/
<rjeffries>
wpwrak once your atben and atUSB designs are locked down, do you know if/when they will be manufactured?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the plan is that sharism will manufacture them, probably as soon as possible
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: of course, whether this will happen or not can only be told in retrospective :)
<wpwrak>
grmbl. one more dead mill enters the graveyard. i wonder what happened. those 35 mil things aren't supposed to break easily. well, it has had quite a long service life ...
<roh>
moved too fast? vibrations?
<roh>
wpwrak: when you got stuff like 12mm endmills breaking... thats the point where one is lucky to have cameras and not to be in the same room as the mill
<wpwrak>
roh: (too fast) i did probably a hundred boards with these parameters. (vibrations) maybe the board got unstuck somehow. or maybe there was some transmission error that made the mill try to do something evil.
<kristianpaul>
the 4 holes on PCB with acrylic sheet, after put the side with the VGA output..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: v2 will be better ;-)
<kristianpaul>
hmm i'm not going to make a case fab here..
<kristianpaul>
thats why we have roh :-)
<wpwrak>
roh: your competition has just auto-eliminated itself :)
<kristianpaul>
i just need a case as i have a mm1 "performance" in two moths
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: is the misalignment something you can work around ?
<roh>
wpwrak: always good ;)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: seems is just one axis
<kristianpaul>
sure
<roh>
kristianpaul: i checked.. shipping to columbia from here with <=2kg is about 14E
<kristianpaul>
i have a milling tool
<roh>
not insured
<kristianpaul>
:-(
<kristianpaul>
i'll use glue :D
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i'll comparelater misalignment with cad file, just in case..
<kristianpaul>
compare later**
<roh>
in what way is it misaligned?
<kristianpaul>
lets said VGA sideis Y axis and LAN X
<kristianpaul>
so if you fit the board with Y
<kristianpaul>
the holes are misaligned with respect that axis
<kristianpaul>
2-3 mm from it should be
<roh>
uh
<kristianpaul>
1-2mm~
<kristianpaul>
:p
<roh>
is the laser uncalibrated?
<roh>
as in total dimension
<roh>
s
<kristianpaul>
i dunno i just send the cad, pay, choosed color, and got the parts back today
<kristianpaul>
hmm, once  you fit the side-plate seems dagerous try remove it..
<kristianpaul>
ahh wait !!
<rjeffries>
it wpu;d be cool to use a camera attached to MM as input, so e.g. movments on dancefloor feed back and affect the graphn display in a VJ context
<kristianpaul>
the cover plate is not aligned in all directions..
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: it is posible, you can attach a composite out from a vide camera
<rjeffries>
what is approx size of MM enclosure I have no idea but think it is rather compact??
<kristianpaul>
I said because i hard press the ruber then u at same time, but well
<kristianpaul>
ormris: can you tell us the current steps u are following to usboot your ben¡
<kristianpaul>
?
<ormris>
I alternate between POWER+U and shorting the usbboot pins.
<ormris>
When I short I wait for the device to discharge.
<ormris>
Then plug it in.
<ormris>
I use the provided cable directly to the computer.
<kristianpaul>
I think you can just press u and and short usbboot pinds then plug the usb cord
<kristianpaul>
It should work
<ormris>
I'll go and try it now.
<ormris>
Thanks!
<kristianpaul>
sure do it, i'll be here for a while
<kristianpaul>
u and short at the same time
<kristianpaul>
s/at/and
<tuxbrain_away>
isn't short enough?
<ormris>
*sigh* I didn't work.
<ormris>
The screen stays black but my computer doesn't register the device.
<kristianpaul>
calm down
<ormris>
s/I/It/g :)
<kristianpaul>
Can you try somthing else more trusty than the foil?
<xMff>
paperclip worked good here
<ormris>
I'll try that.
<wpwrak>
btw, jus reset+U didn't work ?
<ormris>
It worked once or twice, but not after that.
<wpwrak>
i.e., remove battery, disconnect USB, wait 20 seconds, press and hold down U, connect USB while still holding U, then release U. check on the PC if the ben shows up. (as xxxx:4740, it think)
<wpwrak>
hmm, odd
<ormris>
Tryed that several times.
<wpwrak>
alright, then it's inescapably suckish hardware button time
<ormris>
wpwrak: Shorting the pins is hard.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: heekspython added some nice example for parametric figures from rectangles to gears, you should look later, may be can help you for the at* cases
<wpwrak>
ormris: yeah. that's something that has to change in the next nanonote design. it's a bit surprising that the issue comes up so often, but well, that's the way it is.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: btw do you use heekscnc to control your cnc?
<bartbes>
hey wolfspraul
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i used heeks{cad,cnc,python} to make the counterweight
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: for PCBs, i have my own set of tools
<kristianpaul>
sure sure (PCB)
<kristianpaul>
But a parametric case could be an option...
<wpwrak>
(case) yup. my tools are not really for 3D. another option could be OpenSCAD. that's even more script-oriented.
<kristianpaul>
I bet more for heekscad, at lest are people using it for CNC
<kristianpaul>
When you have a stable board version i'll try again a design, but this time parametric, i already saw the rectangle example and seems easy to modify