<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think i may have things ready for shipping my monday. now, there's one problem: it seems that there's a customs restriction in argentina for non-commercial export of one shipment per person and month.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what are the options ? shall i try to circumvent this ? just send everything to adam and he'll forward one set each to roh and richard ? other ?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: how is this being enforced?
<wolfspraul>
are you reading too many regulations again?
<wolfspraul>
why 'export'? can't you send out some gifts to some of your friends?
<wolfspraul>
an Argentine is only allowed to send one gift per month to his many friends in foreign countries?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for sending things, they usually want a document number. so they could match numbers.
<wolfspraul>
document number? you can send those boards as regular letters, no?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: that's basically what the regulations say, yes. that's from the same page that's been a very reliable guide for what causes problems and what doesn't in the past
<wolfspraul>
'could match' - you are reading too many regulations again, don't you? :-)
<wolfspraul>
you should read what the German customs pages say about taking a video camera to an international vacation trip
<wolfspraul>
good thing that millions of Germans each year blatantly ignore this nonsense
<wolfspraul>
they want you to declare the video camera with serial number etc in advance (need proof of purchase etc). then you get a re-entry permit.
<wolfspraul>
otherwise when you come back your video camera may be taxed as import.
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: not sure what happens if i send things undeclared. could get confiscated. customs have a 50% hit rate for finding cheques among regular mail, so i wouldn't count on them easily overlooking things
<wpwrak>
i guess every once in a while, someone does get bothered this way :)
<wolfspraul>
well I cannot tell you how crazy Argentine customs or mail handling is.
<wolfspraul>
there are a lot of regulations that have no let's say 'match' in reality :-)
<wolfspraul>
they are just there to justify the jobs of the people that are twiddling their thumbs every day, but can claim to be the guarantors of stability, or whatever
<roh>
cant you send them as 'nonfunctional prototypes, examples' or so?
<wpwrak>
but here it's also a big difference between the things you carry with you as a traveler and the things you send by mail. with the latter, they have all the time in the world to search for something they can use.
<wolfspraul>
I'd say relax. you need to try.
<wolfspraul>
if you are so paranoid, send some broken ones as test letters first.
<wpwrak>
roh: i'd send them as "samples without commercial value"
<wolfspraul>
the test is cheaper than a long discussion here.
<wolfspraul>
why can't this just be a birthday card?
<wolfspraul>
with some electronic attachment
<wolfspraul>
you can buy them in every stationery in the whole world
<wolfspraul>
buy some birthday cards, and personalize them a little
<wolfspraul>
attach the boards on them
<wpwrak>
it's a bit thick for a birthday card :) the programmer boards have protruding contacts that need to be protected. so the whole things is about 1 cm thick.
<wolfspraul>
argentina is not north korea. if one can trust the news just a little.
<wolfspraul>
I don't know, you have to decide.
<wolfspraul>
it sounds like you are reading too many regulations, and thinking too much. :-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: roh should tell you when he orders 10 whatever in china, they take the time to ship as 10 separate letters, and add a hand-written note into each one so it passes German customs as a 'gift'
<wolfspraul>
call that CUSTOMER SERVICE!
<wpwrak>
well, your choice. i'll have four sets of boards: 4 x (1 x atusb, 1 x atben, 1 x (atusb-pgm + ubb)). you tell me how and where i shall send them. the rest is up to fate :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: hrhr
<wolfspraul>
I have been in argentina twice, for a few days each.
<roh>
true. a friend of mine ordered sdcards and they came tesa-stripped to greeting cards
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
maybe I live in China too long
<wpwrak>
roh: nice :)
<roh>
i am also so glad my package to taiwan went through
<wolfspraul>
the attitude here is 'just get the shit done and the money paid' (money first). talk and especially paper is meaningless.
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese seem to be quite successful with that economically, if the rest of the world has time and money for paperwork - fine.
<roh>
welll.. in the end china seems to work more on the 'pragmatic' side of things
<wolfspraul>
roh: yes it went well.
<wpwrak>
shipping choices i know are: regular mail (not sure if only air mail overseas or also surface mail), EMS, and FedEx, DHL, UPS, TNT
<roh>
also.. in the end the country can act like a supernational company if neccessary.. that for sure helps move things
<wolfspraul>
I'd say regular mail, tape into a birthday greeting card. try with broken boards first.
<wolfspraul>
I go bottom up - test the cheapest most underground way first :-)
<roh>
we dont have emx here. but the last 4 + dpd and stuff like hermes and gls
<wolfspraul>
at the top end we have fedex
<wolfspraul>
total overkill
<wpwrak>
what do i do with the atusb-pgm adapters ?
<wolfspraul>
fedex will help you overwhelm whatever customs idiot is in the way with so much paper and numbers that they will just let it pass :-)
<wolfspraul>
roh: do you know the German rules about 'video cameras'
<wolfspraul>
it's really hilarious
<wolfspraul>
you are supposed to get this 're-rentry permit' in advance
<wpwrak>
(video cameras) probably the same for laptops and such
<wpwrak>
every country has this
<wolfspraul>
if the 20+ million Germans leaving Germany each year would actually do this, the offices you are supposed to go to in person (!) to show your 're-entry equipment' would be flooded with lines several miles long.
<wolfspraul>
every smartphone would need to be registered
<wolfspraul>
only a government employee has his brains reduced to the point that he doesn't have to laugh at this. well, they make their money that way, so it has to be taken seriously :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the difference between germany and argentina is that here, you have those offices with lines that go around several blocks ...
<wolfspraul>
maybe in another 20 years in a big 'reform' those regulations are abolished.
<roh>
wolfspraul: dunno. special import tax?
<wolfspraul>
when you enter Germany with a video camera, you may have bought it abroad.
<wolfspraul>
any tech equipment
<wolfspraul>
the official way to proove that you had it before is that before your trip, you go to some office, put the stuff on the table, together with purchase receipts
<roh>
muahaha
<wolfspraul>
then you get some form that will allow you to 're-enter' Germany with that same (serial-number) equipment tax-free
<roh>
i know people like harald and others who travel with like 10 phones and equipment like 19" servers in hardcase trolleys...
<wolfspraul>
oh sure
<wolfspraul>
but a government employee won't quit his job because his task has been 100% obsoleted
<roh>
just clean the crap and make sure you can make up a good story and dont have forbidden stuff in there
<wolfspraul>
worst case he goes to the office every day reading the newspaper or surfing the web
<roh>
wolfspraul: they do.
<roh>
but not only in such jobs. all the 'normal office workers' do
<wpwrak>
when a shipment via mail arrives, and they think they want a look or it's too valuable to just let the postman collect the fees, they send you a card inviting you to come to the customs office. there, you pull a number from a roll, then wait in a crowded room for about 1 h until it's your turn. then they take your card, let you pay whatever it due for storage, have you show your document and sign, and then send you to the next room. th
<wolfspraul>
ok we should be nice to them :-)
<wpwrak>
ere, you can sit (usually). over a speaker, the shipment numbers are read. no display, so you have to pay attention. when your is announced, after another hour or so, you can proceed inside to the customs desks.
<roh>
70% of your time you need to be there and waste time to get payed. so one does it. work seems only to be 30% or less
<wpwrak>
there, they have a quick look at it, give you a form, with which you go to a bank branch, pay the duties in cash, then come back and retrieve your parcel. that's the level of efficiency you have to expect from argentine bureaucracy.
<roh>
wpwrak: sounds like germany in totally unoptimized
<roh>
here the cost-pressure of privatisation killed lots of the bloat. now less people need to work too much and do the same or worse service than before and earn less at it.
<roh>
also i wouldnt worry too much about the argentinian customs. i worry about german customs. packages from south america
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: atusb-pgm is about 7 mm thick. atusb, with its usb connector, about 6 mm. so, greeting cards ?
<wolfspraul>
regular mail may be treated harshly in some sorting machines, like rolling around a curve. maybe it got better now.
<roh>
isnt there something, some goods, cheap,  easy to export, something typical argentinian?
<wolfspraul>
if I would live in Argentina, I would test this type of things with broken/fake stuff.
<wpwrak>
roh: meat ;-)
<roh>
hm. difficult at customs. 'not dead enough yet'
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: we can do that. will delay things even further, of course
<roh>
i would say 'wickel es in ein schnitzel' .. but the time it takes to travel and eu customs on bio-stuff... naaah
<wpwrak>
roh: wrap it in smelly socks ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: actually, they require a certificate of sterilization or such for clothes
<wpwrak>
roh: well, except for obviously  new ones
<wolfspraul>
Werner in the regulation jungle
<wolfspraul>
it's funny how much text people can write
<wolfspraul>
as someone who can type > 100 words / minute I sympathize with them
<roh>
wolfspraul: true. what a gigantic waste of time
<wpwrak>
roh: you also get stopped at some province borders for insecticide treatment (they just spray your entire car. of course, you have to pay for that service.)
<roh>
yummy
<roh>
hm. 3:12 am.. and -8°C again
<roh>
feels like -13.2°C ... great. thats less unfriendly than yesterday
<xMff>
yeah, spring approaching in germany ;)
<roh>
*gnnh*
<xMff>
this winter felt like being in siberia and not europe...
<roh>
its the same in berlin every year as far as i can remember
<roh>
been here 10 years with some interruptions now
<wolfspraul>
ok so we have 3 recipients: roh, richard, adam
<wpwrak>
yup
<roh>
hm. not sure.. seems the mailserver stayed in one piece
<roh>
(moko)
<wpwrak>
roh: still connection refused
<roh>
wpwrak: i know. still working on it. cant do a full backup of it due to -enospace
<roh>
i wish we could refurbish the setup to new boxes costing the same
<roh>
wpwrak: i just learned that only the host machine is nullrouted. the service hosts they let online
<roh>
i cant even ssh to chandra. i am tunneling through agni
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: tough call.
<wolfspraul>
I would probably send as regular letter, maybe really put a birthday card around it (even a self made one, just fold a thick cardboard)
<wolfspraul>
but I have never done it before myself, and I'm hesitating to do anything I haven't tested :-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe there are floods of fake shipments with sloppy 'happy birthday' notes jotted down somewhere already, and 'happy birthday' is a good way to make someone stop the letter? don't know
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: chances are that people try all sorts of things, yes. your "try to beat the system wherever you can" attitude is rather common in argentina :)
<wolfspraul>
it may still be better than trying to comply with obsolete regulations
<wolfspraul>
filling out lost of forms and in the end making a formal (!) mistake in that approach
<wolfspraul>
if you say 'yes' in field A.23, you have to supply additional form E-10
<wolfspraul>
and becuse E-10 is missing, shipment is held
<wolfspraul>
or best - if H.23-4 on page 17 is left empty, you need to supply additional ...
<wolfspraul>
"hell yeah, I overlooked H.23-4 on p. 17"
<wolfspraul>
do you know someone who is mailing out a lot of stuff?
<wpwrak>
i think it's just the pro forma invoice plus somehow avoiding the 1 shipment per personmonth trap
<wolfspraul>
that souds like very hard/never enforced
<wolfspraul>
that's just on paper to that people cannot build a big business without registering (and paying taxes) at some point
<wolfspraul>
virtual threat
<wpwrak>
(ship a lot) no, not really
<roh>
wpwrak: care to try mail?
<roh>
sita is not up yet. so no lists and incoming mail. but the imap should do.
<wolfspraul>
a lot of these regulations are written for legal reasons
<wolfspraul>
you have a big legal system, and it needs to be legally tight otherwise lawyers have too much upside for their clients
<wolfspraul>
so some regulation A is only written as the logical counterpart of regulation B
<wolfspraul>
A is not actually enforceable, but it can be pulled out when needed
<wolfspraul>
so let's say you run a big shipping business shipping thousands of whatever per month. after 4 years some auditor finds you and wants more taxes - he can pull out this regulation.
<wpwrak>
roh: imap works ! thanks ! now i just need the new mails to flow in, too :)
<wolfspraul>
in my experience, if you really read regulatory texts directly, 90% or more of the stuff in there is there to set a certain legal baseline
<wolfspraul>
not because this is enforced in reality every single day
<wolfspraul>
you need to keep that in mind when you are trying to send 3 little pieces of nearly nothing to 3 friends
<wolfspraul>
the regulation was never written with that kind of target in mind, guaranteed. Argentina is not that crazy.
<roh>
wpwrak: working on sita already. we should reset passwords for mail soon too.
<roh>
just to be sure.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: don't know how strictly they enforce those "flow control" regulations. there's also something for imports, which they mentioned when i was at customs about every month because things from openmoko had tripped up another trap, but they didn't seem to be too concerned about that rule at that time
<wolfspraul>
you read those regulatory texts, and you mentally apply it all to yourself
<wolfspraul>
I don't know why om had all these problems. I have been shipping hundreds of packages all over the world the last 1.5 years.
<wpwrak>
roh: yeah, better safe than sorry. or leave the old ones around as honeytraps :)
<wolfspraul>
and except for 1 airmail letter to Colombia (which was never delivered), I neved had one single problem.
<roh>
to be fair: i'd like to do some kind of 'reset' somewhere
<wolfspraul>
and that lost one I didn't send myself, so I'm not 100% how or where from it was exactly sent.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: perhaps argentine customs are just a little nastier than the rest ? :)
<roh>
make it all smaller, easier to administrate and less work to do so. need to check that with gismo and harald
<wpwrak>
roh: what did you have in mind of resetting ?
<roh>
maybe weed out most of the old accounts. see who is forwarding mail and who is not checking at all.
<roh>
wpwrak: the moko universe.
<roh>
servers
<roh>
we have quite some overhead at some places left over from the internal/external complex account seperation etc.
<wpwrak>
hmm yes
<roh>
i'd like to change to 'kiss vms'
<roh>
one does mail, one does lists (one of these is also primary mx), one docs, one wiki, one git, one admin-foo and one downloads and one buildhost (if we still want to)
<wpwrak>
"roh loves VAX/VMS" ? ;-)
<roh>
nah. 'make the vm as noncomplex as possible' .. dont mix services (always a hell to untangle/fix when broken)
<roh>
also makes backup dead easy and moving to other hosting muuuuch easier
<wpwrak>
3/5 atusb enumerate. 2/5 will need more encouragement ...
<roh>
i just need to shutdown the vm, backup it as always, move the tarball over and restore, restart and fix the routing. yes it has downtime (could be done without with shared routing and storage)
<roh>
loves self-contained stuff.
<roh>
wpwrak: ah. still bugfixing the hw?
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul ?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak are you here
<wpwrak>
roh: yeah. building that stuff takes a looong time ...
<wpwrak>
roh: i've basically been making boards for three weeks in a row now. well, including a few false starts with the atben redesign, and discarding the silabs-based atusb boards i had prepared earlier.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yup
<wpwrak>
roh: (silabs) just unpopulated pcbs, luckily
<roh>
which silabs?
<roh>
eh. which chips
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I think I let the fab quote die, thinking about the "why" do not wish to burn brudges for next time
<rjeffries>
s/brudges/bridges
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: don't want to try to see if this can be improved ?
<rjeffries>
well, in any case it will not make sense to buy fabs, since tuxbrain_away tuxbrain has a firm order in process
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: we still don't know how good/bad his UBBs will be. yours could be plan B
<wpwrak>
mail ! mail ! a little, at least :)
<roh>
will be back in a few minutes (+ retry wobble) i hope
<wpwrak>
roh: great. thanks a lot !!!
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I did ask her if the quote reflected all conditions of fab spec. was worried they had shined on the laser cutting
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: hmm, may be better to ask what it would take to bring the cost down. also, that fab may not be the best place for a low price at such quantities. their typical range may be well below 100.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: also, when you visit their web site, their list of equipment doesn't mention a laser cutter. but that's okay. if they have a mill that can do it, that's just as good.
<rjeffries>
okI'll continue the dialog
<rjeffries>
also remember I have anotrher guy waiting to bid.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yeah, competition is good. the invisible hand of the market ;-)
<rjeffries>
but... this is very likely a game,,, with no order from me forthcoming
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: playing games you learn for the real hunt
<roh>
wpwrak: yay. mail got in
<rjeffries>
on the quoute from spain was that a 2-sided board?
<kyak>
xiangfu: awesome! i will add it to applications: )
<xiangfu>
kyak: already in there.
<kyak>
oh! even better :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: if I run 'kinyin' --> 'fbgrab /root/kinyin.png' --> scp to pc --> the picture not correct.
<xiangfu>
kyak: I have to run 'kinyin' --> 'fbgrab /root/kinyin_1.png' --> 'exit kinyin' --> 'imgv /root/kinyin_1.png' --> 'fbgrab' again. --> scp to pc --> picture show up.
<kyak>
xiangfu: i know, seems that fbgrab is not working quite correctly in some cases. If you do convert kinyin.png kinyin.jpg on your PC, it works fine
<kyak>
convert kinyin.png kinyin.png should also work.. it seems to me that fbgrab is adding some transparetn layer or something
<kyak>
wejp: a question: can gmu's mp3 decoder work also with libmad, or libmpg123 only?
<wpwrak>
roh: (flux cleaner) naw, ran out of it. it's kinda hard to find, too. several passes with water and alcohol seem to work, too.
<roh>
hard to find?
<roh>
hm. adam should send you a carepackage from asia
<wpwrak>
;-)
<roh>
ok. i'll head home now. 7:40 already (outdoors gets annoying. people are awake and running around)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so how shall things be sent ? dimensions will be around 10 mm x 50 mm x 120 mm for each kit, if minimizing thickness
<tuxbrain>
arg!!! gcc version I have being compiling doesn't have atmega328 support!!!
<kyak>
wejp: seems that it's libmpg123 only :)
<tuxbrain>
knoks his head on the keybq9reh opgnq fpgiuq qpreytabmpodif
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: no problem. it'll only take a day or two to make another ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I would still try a regular airmail letter
<wolfspraul>
or fedex, but then it's a lot more expensive
<wolfspraul>
A LOT
<wolfspraul>
for the airmail letter, maybe try 1 first, wait a week to see whether it arrives
<wolfspraul>
if you want to send it as a regular mail package, and you need to fill out a small customs form somewhere, I'd say "usb stick"
<wpwrak>
which one shall go first ? a)dam, j)oachim, or r)ichard ?
<wolfspraul>
pick the nearest and most common thing :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'd say roh, adam is in the midst of some critical m1 rc3 fixes that he wants to finish first
<wolfspraul>
Adam only needs his as a guideline through the production process.
<wolfspraul>
roh will probably look into mechanical, and richard into software stack (?) hopefully...
<wpwrak>
regular mail takes <= 10-12 days to the US, <= 14-15 days to europe/asia
<wpwrak>
(typical time)
<wpwrak>
i've seen things spend between 1-3 weeks, so this seems to be a reasonably accurate estimate
<wolfspraul>
wow that's slow
<wpwrak>
and a customs form is required. let's see what it says ...
<wolfspraul>
for a letter or for a package?
<wolfspraul>
normally the customs snippet is only for packages
<wpwrak>
package. let's see what it is for letters ...
<wolfspraul>
if you send as a small package, I'd declare it as 'usb stick' or even 'usb gadget'
<wpwrak>
don't specify anything
<wolfspraul>
give them something to chew on, if they want to chew
<wpwrak>
hmm, it's three distinct items, one with a cable between boards
<wolfspraul>
"adapter cable"
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't matter much, for sure
<wolfspraul>
the only problem is I feel really lost commenting on which way to send something out of Argentina is best
<wolfspraul>
so I'm just guessing
<wolfspraul>
roh just send this package to Adam and it was pretty good
<wolfspraul>
tracking wasn't great but worked
<wolfspraul>
was delivered by normal Taiwan Post on the other side
<wpwrak>
i know that letters containing letters pass without problems. i know that other stuff with courier passes with only minor problems (and i think i can anticipate these by now)
<wpwrak>
i have no idea what happens if you send something that isn't a letter as a letter. i know that at least inbound mail is examined carefully enough that they caught two cheques out of 3-4 (and stole them)
<wolfspraul>
relax. who says that 'letter' cannot be 'electronic letter'.
<wolfspraul>
I can ship an ipad and say I thought it's a 'letter'.
<wpwrak>
e-mail ;-) hah, why haven't i thought of this ;-)
<wolfspraul>
because when you turn it on it shows my letter!
<wolfspraul>
I left it right there on the screen!
<wolfspraul>
see!
<wpwrak>
good luck arguing that ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no problem
<wolfspraul>
didn't you see that Apple advertisement?
<wpwrak>
i think they'll just pocket your ipad and be done with it :)
<wolfspraul>
not sure. but I am somewhat serious with my argument.
<wolfspraul>
don't always assume you know or understand everything.
<wolfspraul>
I am not saying I know how to get away with something.
<wolfspraul>
but yes, you can totally stand there and say you thought this ipad is a letter. why not.
<wolfspraul>
I left my text right on the screen!
<wolfspraul>
trust me this happens
<wolfspraul>
and not by people who do it on purpose
<wpwrak>
well, i don't disagree that the average alzheimer patient may believe all sort of things, but ...
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wpwrak>
i sometimes try the "me foreigner, don't understand nothing" approach, but it rarely works
<wpwrak>
well, some people dry their pets in the microwave ...
<wpwrak>
... or at least try to :)
<wolfspraul>
btw, in China they are leading in sniffiness again. first few times when I send a package I still felt somewhat insulted. they open it right in front of you, and peel through everything you have their, asking questions.
<wolfspraul>
with letters, they are touching around with more sensitivity than the average urologist would go about a prostate check
<wolfspraul>
disgusting
<wolfspraul>
and if anything doesn't 'feel' right - asking questions
<wolfspraul>
of course there is still a flood of stuff being sent in all imaginable ways, because the other side (the senders) are equally ignorant of whatever regulation may be written somewhere
<wolfspraul>
ignorance is bliss
<wolfspraul>
if the argentine post has a small international package, maybe that's a good idea
<wolfspraul>
that would be the same as roh's package to Adam
<wolfspraul>
it would be trackable, has a short customs form (I'd just say "usb adapter" or so), and it would hopefully arrive in about a week or so, at reasonable cost
<wpwrak>
they have small parcels, with customs form
<wolfspraul>
trackable?
<wolfspraul>
the tracking number gives you at least the illusion that you know more about the package, and one could assume they are trying to move those faster through the system.
<wpwrak>
tracking at least inside argentina. and the recipient has to sign.
<wpwrak>
tracking may also discourage theft a little
<wolfspraul>
you really think they will apply that 1 package/month rule?
<wolfspraul>
if they do, you probably cannot drop all 3 packages at the same time :-)
<wolfspraul>
unless you write 3 different sender addresses onto them
<wolfspraul>
since multiple people can live at your same address, that shouldn't be too much of a problem either :-)
<wolfspraul>
there are street addresses with thousands of businesses 'residing' at that very same small office building :-)
<wpwrak>
i don't know what they control. if they want to see the sender's ID, then it's not so easy
<wolfspraul>
true true, many things are possible. so you need to try.
<wolfspraul>
see what is actually going on in reality.
<wolfspraul>
in China I need to show my passport (show = they scan it) to receive an Amazon book shipment
<wolfspraul>
big brother is collecting data, the more the better
<wpwrak>
you almost certainly have to put the ID number somewhere. they ask that for virtually any transaction. (also credit card payments, for example)
<wpwrak>
well, books are ammunition ;-)
<wolfspraul>
until you try it's all speculation
<wolfspraul>
what if you give a fake/random ID? do you think it's actually cross-checked in any way?
<wpwrak>
ah .. that form is an internationally standardized document. interesting.
<wpwrak>
probably not, but i don't have any fake IDs
<wpwrak>
don't know how hard it would be to get some made or - probably easier - get a stolen one ...
<wolfspraul>
oh, I was more thinking if you just have to write down a number, maybe you can make it up on the spot :-)
<wolfspraul>
you should see me filling out forms :-)
<wolfspraul>
the more data is being asked from me, the more I happily provide (ahem)
<wolfspraul>
nobody showed the regulation to me at the right time that one wasn't allowed to fill out the form in drunk state
<wolfspraul>
a lot of these things are just run so the other side has a bit of paperwork so some people can have a steady income filing stuff
<wolfspraul>
not to be taken too seriously :-)
<wolfspraul>
"nur kein stress"
<wpwrak>
hmm, the thingy they require can range from simple to the equivalent of the declaration you include with a courier shipment. it's the CN22 form. simple: http://www.altacarta.com/espanol/customs.html
<wolfspraul>
I would say "USB adapter", I would not check gift or sample, and write the value as 8 USD
<wolfspraul>
alternatively you can also check 'gift', 'sample' would be my last option
<wpwrak>
sample can be a trap, yes
<wolfspraul>
the key is the low value, but not zero
<wpwrak>
yeah. zero is another trap :)
<wolfspraul>
and a reasonably small thing, 'usb adapter' is perfect, everybody has heard of 'usb'
<wpwrak>
the problem is that it's three distinct parts and only one looks like a usb adapter
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
not in a million years would anyone object, imho
<wolfspraul>
then say 'adapter cable', how about that?
<wolfspraul>
or just 'adapter'
<wpwrak>
the art is to make it look harmless and not create the impression that you're actually trying to hide something :)
<wolfspraul>
what???
<wolfspraul>
don't worry
<wolfspraul>
millions of things are being sent around every day
<wolfspraul>
I read some numbers that 10% or so of medicine in the US is now coming in illegally in packages from all sorts of countries
<wolfspraul>
because medicine prices in the US are very high, and many people simply cannot afford them, have no health care etc.
<wolfspraul>
so it's either I get that cheap antibiotic shipped over from 'country of your choice', or I have no antibiotic at all
<wolfspraul>
and I guarantee you, the flood will come, every day, and is unstoppable
<wolfspraul>
in all that mess you have your 3 earth-shaking ben-wpan boards now...
<wolfspraul>
I'm mostly worried we loose a lot of time if the shipment goes missing, and also your time to make them.
<wolfspraul>
the 'let's ship cheap antibiotics' people don't have that problem
<wolfspraul>
they will win economically
<wolfspraul>
they will just send the stuff in 100 different forms and ways and can work with percentages that pass in this or that way
<wolfspraul>
but since about a year ago I have shipped way over 500 packages here and there, and have to say: extremely few problems
<wolfspraul>
I lost exactly one as I mentioned, and that was sent in a bit of chaotic way, so I'm not sure where it was actually mishandled.
<wolfspraul>
everything else, 100%, arrive
<wolfspraul>
arrived
<wolfspraul>
letters, packages, courier shipments
<wolfspraul>
the nastiest problems is stuff into mainland China
<wolfspraul>
Chinese customs has the advantage of being able to hire tens of thousands of little ants to go through stuff
<wpwrak>
for your shipments, did you make them as a private person ? or as a company exporting things ?
<wolfspraul>
then they have draconian paranoid dictators running the country
<wolfspraul>
all sorts of things
<wolfspraul>
private, company, this that
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't matter
<wolfspraul>
also nowadays what I see a lot is that courier companies are rejecting stuff
<wolfspraul>
that makes it easier
<wolfspraul>
they specialize in certain areas
<wolfspraul>
so they say "no electronics into China"
<wolfspraul>
or "no phones into Taiwan"
<wolfspraul>
but then with others it's no problem at all :-)
<wolfspraul>
go figure
<wolfspraul>
a lot of them are fuzzy about batteries now
<wpwrak>
or toner cartridges :)
<wolfspraul>
the real stuff that is hot is (aside from the obvious nuclear, weapons, drugs) - medicine, chemicals, pornography or political content (in some countries)
<wolfspraul>
so if you think about it that way, really our stuff is the most harmless possible
<wolfspraul>
it's nothing actually
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't even work right :-)
<wpwrak>
what's also hot here is any form of tax evasion
<wolfspraul>
not sure
<wolfspraul>
again the courier companies are behind this
<wolfspraul>
tax authorities are not stupid
<wolfspraul>
they work with fedex, ups directly
<wolfspraul>
so you don't need to worry, if you use a courier company they will reject if if there is a tax problem
<wolfspraul>
as you already mentioned with the 1000 USD or 3000 USD rule - that type of thing
<wpwrak>
then there's the flow control thing ... well, there's but on way to find out whether they check this
<wolfspraul>
but can you imagine how many things are being sent all the time? and can you imagine how much whatever regulation is written up somewhere matches the reality every single day?
<wpwrak>
this is something that won't be caught at the counter and since non-courier parcels have no phone number, there won't be a call either, just return to sender
<wolfspraul>
I think you need to move to testing phase.
<wolfspraul>
if you are too worried, send some broken stuff first.
<wolfspraul>
have some fun, be a little Chinese :-)
<wpwrak>
naw, the first one should pass if properly declared
<wolfspraul>
German style still
<wpwrak>
#2 and #3 are riskier
<wolfspraul>
first read, then understand, then act
<wolfspraul>
chinese style would be: act, try to survive, act again, try to survive, rinse & repeat
<wolfspraul>
no read, especially no understand. can skip those steps.
<wpwrak>
sign with XXX ;-)
<wpwrak>
hmm. probably best to declare it as "gift". "other" could be interpreted as commercial shipment.
<larsc>
i guess half of the consumer electronics stuff leaving china is a declared as a gift
<Antaga>
xD
<wpwrak>
larsc: so "gift" is the new "commercial" ? ;-)
<larsc>
i guess ;)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: will roh just do the case or do you expect him to also use his devices for any EMI measurements ?
<wpwrak>
aw_: will you need a device with very accurate physical dimensions ? (to show to pcb/smt manufacturers, to make a fixture, whatever) or would be some 0.2-0.3 mm of tolerance be acceptable for your use ?
<wpwrak>
(the atbens are all quite accurate, but only two of the atusbs are close to the nominal dimensions while the others are a bit smaller.)
<wpwrak>
(layout and such is identical. in the small devices, components/traces are just a bit closer to the board edge)
<aw_>
wpwrak, yes, if you could mark the tolerance somewhere clearly.
<aw_>
actually i know the pcb_edge's line width, surely we mark the difference firstly before I sending to pcb maker, u know there will be probably having surprises while asking them and finally they could even not produce it. so i don't know yet.
<wolfspraul>
I would not do 'gift' as I said above. leave both unchecked and make it a small value.
<wolfspraul>
8 USD
<wolfspraul>
even in Germany stuff that is declared less than 22 EUR passes without any vat (assuming the declared value is deemed reasonable)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the most common kind of CN22 has "gift", "commercial sample", "documents", and "other"
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: hey, did you send the package already?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes I know these kinds of things.
<kristianpaul>
ah, ok, you live there (near), so :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not sure what's funny about abusing education to manipulate and enslave others, but it's no news that human behavior can sink incredibly low. at least that guy serves as a good warning sign for that :-)
<wolfspraul>
their days are numbered though
<kristianpaul>
(abusing education to manipulate and enslave others), You should read to Paulo Freire
<kyak>
they are related to nanonote.mk, so should be good
<wejp>
ok, i'll have a look at them
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: no i haven't sent anything yet. just got up :) today, i'll see if i can find decent packaging material nearby and find out if the postal shops around the corner do this sort of shipment of if i have to go to a larger post office.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ah, werner@openmoko.org works again. better to use that one.
<rjeffries>
you are tough to track
<rjeffries>
shall I resenf
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: 3) would there be a place that can do it at a lower cost ? :)
<wpwrak>
(resend) naw, don't worry
<rjeffries>
I think thAT QUESTION IS IMPLIED she is a sales person after all
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: in general, you could offer a bit more information. e.g., in this case, that you already know of a similar order in spain that was _much_ cheaper (although with tin-plating instead of ENIG, and we don't know the outcome yet). that would set the expectations. otherwise, you may get a slightly reduced offer, and have to "haggle" things down.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak understood. however since on  UBB it is now very unlikley that I will proceed for a few reasons:
<rjeffries>
1) Tuxbrain_away has corned the GLOBAL market for UBBs ;)
<rjeffries>
2) the demand for UBB will take some time to build
<rjeffries>
3) if UBB was significant Adam and Wolfspraul can do it cheapest of all
<rjeffries>
4) I am not a reseller of Ben Nanonote
<wpwrak>
i was just referring to your request for an updated quote
<larsc>
wpwrak: you don't have a tool by any changes which creates adds oob-data with ecc to an gta01 image?
<rjeffries>
anyway I have learned a lot so far. assuming I back away (as makes sense) I should not wear out Paula or she will never respond for future quotes ;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: hmm .. no, never did such things "off-line"
<rjeffries>
wpwrak the most inteeresting (missing) data point would be is wolfsprail would use my fab spec and get quote in China
<rjeffries>
that will set the bar
<wpwrak>
a .cn quote for comparison would interesting, yes. well, we'll sort of get that for atben. that device is quite similar, just a little larger.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it directly, three of the programming pins work both ways (and you could even reuse reset if you dare)
<rjeffries>
thanks Jay7
<rjeffries>
interesting idea! 13:50 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: after all, if i can make such devices at home, others can, too ;-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak remind me shich avr chip you used? did you bring most  of the signals out or...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: atmega32u2. no, as few as possible. the board is already crowded enough as it as. you have three signals you can reuse without any difficulties. one more if you're willing to lose reset (you could still load firmware over usb). if you redesign, you could pick a different avr and put ios instead of usb. should give you room for quite a lot of contacts
<wpwrak>
if you want anything but bare contacts, just integrate the transceiver into your circuit
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away unlike you, my friend, I do not syffer from a migrain today. ;)
<rjeffries>
on a serious note, in the TBD category, wpwrak has yet to disclose how a few atBENs in a conference rool might talk to each other
<tuxbrain_away>
touche! I think I will go to bed
<rjeffries>
it is a multicast type of application
<kristianpaul>
If is said that the data is 16-bit IQ interleaved
<kristianpaul>
It means i have a chain of uint16_t I and Q variables
<kristianpaul>
Hmm, also i could make a struct but i think i dont want keep mixed the I and Q all time
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: there's no proper driver yet. just some test tools. but yes, there will be a low-level driver for the IEEE 802.15.4 stack and then 6LoWPAN on top
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (gold code) you mentiones something about this before, i think osgps project have a portable code about correlating gold codes by the use of a acumulator (dont ask me how now)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (linux-to-linux) in what way is the ben different from "another linux box" ? ;-)
<kristianpaul>
But is the only code seems to compile on a mips(sel) machine and not complaing abotu MMX/SSE or other SIMD
<kristianpaul>
The bad side, is that have some ASM code for reading a PCI Acquisition Board.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul seems that there's a lot of ugliness out there ;-)
<kristianpaul>
well _later_ it can be consider to do a more focused SDR task, on the nanonote
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (ugliness), ah you already check this project?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (multicast) uh, nobody uses multicast (unless you're a router or working towards a PhD)
<kristianpaul>
Imagine that!, last versio run on windows and do real time correlation!
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: no no, but your description of MMX here, asm there sounds bad :)
<kristianpaul>
they are usign same chip as me, as a dongle, plus the cypress high speed thing as usrp
<rjeffries>
wpwrak ok (but Mcast used all the time in Etherent world)
<rjeffries>
let me state the problem differently
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (asm) ./gp2021.c:26:#Â Â include <asm/io.h>
<rjeffries>
in a conference situation with say 10 Ben NN freaks in attendace, I assume at a minimu sombody needs
<rjeffries>
to have a sort of "directory" where one can find address for other Ben atBen users
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: anyway, just telling you, i think you mentioned something about gold code algorithms the other time, but due my PC shutdown i lost the log :(
<rjeffries>
multicats transmission from the directory node would go to all Bens in shouting distance so they know where the directory is located (IP address)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i dont like SIMD, well is nice, but when you have mipsel laptop you realize how non-portable some code is :(
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (gold code) yeah, i was wondering how hard it would be to make a state machine that would translate a bit stream into code number and phase (bit position)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (simd) indeed :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: not so hard, as i said i need a book with better algorithms, my current literature just talk about fft and parallel correlation. bla bla..
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i know what multicast can do ;-) it's just that nobody seriously uses it, except for certain infrastructure services.
<kristianpaul>
ah there is a code called fastgps is on SF too, i dont remenber if is SIMD dependand.. i think it is
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (and tightly integrated niche applications, things like iptv over catv)
<kristianpaul>
ha, fastgps i C++ coded now i remenber :D
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i think what you have in mind is a network with mobile/variable infrastructure. that would  be below IP.
<rjeffries>
how deso one atBen find the other atBen
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i bet ARM did btw
<kristianpaul>
so roh theority can be proben ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: typically, they would go via a common server. but that's mainly determined by the application. if you had something that goes peer-to-peer, then you could also use that.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: but if you consider things like IRC or such, they're all server-oriented
<rjeffries>
it begs the question, when atBen shios and we have the fist Glbal Ben Conference
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ;-)
<rjeffries>
and wpwrak Ben wants to talk to krustianpaul Ben how do you know what to do
<rjeffries>
I am mot jerking your chain, asking about an obvious early use case
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i'm readying the prototypes for shipping. now the issue is how to get them to the various recipients. i investigated a bit today but didn't find what i was looking for. to be continued on monday.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: what does "talk" mean ? ping ? IRC ? ronchat ? email ? skype ?
<rjeffries>
ronchat would work. l)
<wpwrak>
that one gives you the most freedom in implementation choices ;-)
<rjeffries>
i watched with amusement as wolfspraul gave you long distance counselling
<rjeffries>
rf is by it's natyre a broadcast media so I guess the two parties transmit their unique ID (tbd) and tehn  can establish a connection that is semi encrypted
<wpwrak>
yeah. i think i'll actually try regular mail, see how it goes.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i don't know yet if 6LoWPAN provides for direct peer to peer communication. probably yes, or if not yet, then it would at least leave the option for it open.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: right now, there are still much bigger holes to fix, such as proper TCP support
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: avahi is you friend :-)
<kristianpaul>
or others encarnations of zero conf stuff
<wpwrak>
yeah, some of it is already part of basic IPv6 functionality
<kristianpaul>
oh, really?
<kristianpaul>
need to read mroe about ipv6 then
<kristianpaul>
well ipv4 too
<kristianpaul>
;-)
<kristianpaul>
ipv6 is just fancy i think
<rjeffries>
avahi does look interesting kristianpaul
<rjeffries>
ipv6 has longer addresses than V4 and a bunch of otehr stuff. 6LoWpan looks like it will be widely deployed for device networks