<kyak>
haven't seen xiangfu for a while.. i guess the holidays are being harsh on him :)
<kyak>
are there power users of git who are capable of bringing openwrt-xburst up to date with the latest upstream backfire?
<kyak>
there is important backport by xMff that we need to merge into our branch..
<wolfspra1l>
kyak: yeah, I wanted to point that out to you, you probably mean the post about the iconv system they implemented?
<wolfspra1l>
it read just like what we needed...
<kyak>
yeah, that one
<kyak>
it is exactly what we needed and an awesome job by xMff
<wolfspra1l>
as for upleveling openwrt-xburst, I suggest we wait for Xiangfu's return. He went to his hometown and his Internet connection may be sporadic for technical and social reasons :-)
<kyak>
sure, waiting for xiangfu
<wolfspra1l>
kyak: well without speaking for xMff, I think feedback from you and others also helped in coming up with such a great first (and final) shot at solving it.
<wolfspra1l>
so from me: thank you!
<wolfspra1l>
xiangfu will return to beijing on the 8th or so
<kyak>
i was moaning, mostly :)
<kyak>
wolfspra1l: btw, always wanted to ask - do you have some kind of office in Beijing, and full-tim employees there (xiangfu among them)?
<wolfspra1l>
home office
<kyak>
ah, so it is remote job
<wolfspra1l>
yes, I work with xiangfu (and pay him) for several years now
<wolfspra1l>
oh sure, we are all remote
<wolfspra1l>
you too, no? :-)
<kyak>
sure :)
<wolfspra1l>
remote is the new local
<kyak>
oh, i misunderstood - no, i'm working in the office :)
<wolfspra1l>
he. you are old school :-)
<wolfspra1l>
I don't think I will ever incorporate a company in mainland China, with office etc.
<kyak>
cause you are not Chinese?
<wolfspra1l>
no, how should that be related?
<kyak>
don't know, what else could it be?
<wolfspra1l>
no, the reason is that in my mind the purpose of incorporation and formalities is legal backing
<wolfspra1l>
you become part of some legal system, accountability standards, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
which is a good thing
<wolfspra1l>
it increases transparency, makes the company more trustworthy for business partners, financing, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
but those are all the things you can never ever get in mainland China :-)
<wolfspra1l>
Google learned it the hard way
<wolfspra1l>
the bad decision they made cost them billions of USD
<wolfspra1l>
_never_ trust the current communist party chinese government. never never ever.
<wolfspra1l>
if you do, you will learn a hard lesson one day.
<kyak>
i guess the problem of Google was that they didn't obey the rules
<wolfspra1l>
pretty much all people with extensive China knowledge will tell you this, including Chinese of course :-)
<wolfspra1l>
no
<wolfspra1l>
their problem was that they physically operated servers in mainland China
<wolfspra1l>
that was a dramatic mis-decision
<wolfspra1l>
a company (incorporation) in mainland China is a totally worthless entity. it lives on the everyday good will of the hierarchy. it can be shutdown, sold, raided, chopped to pieces, restructured, merged, or whatever else at any minute. with the power of a few phone calls.
<kyak>
when Chinese government tells your company to do something, why not just do it?
<wolfspra1l>
if you know that, you can open a company here
<kyak>
Google tried to play against the rules
<wolfspra1l>
sure if you accept total 100% control over you
<wolfspra1l>
no way
<wolfspra1l>
the Chinese constitution guarantees all sorts of things
<wolfspra1l>
but it is all 100% meaningless
<kyak>
thereis a proverb in Rusisan - something like "When you go to Rome you must do as the Romans do."
<wolfspra1l>
if you can accept that, you can incorporate a business here
<wolfspra1l>
yes, but the chinese government is not the chinese people
<wolfspra1l>
you have to pick sides
<kyak>
not like " When you go to CHina you do as americans do"
<wolfspra1l>
when you go to china, do as the chinese do
<wolfspra1l>
or
<wolfspra1l>
when you go to china, do as the chinese government does
<kyak>
heh :)
<wolfspra1l>
the chinese government is a bunch of criminals that through endless sophisticated tricks and subtleties manages to stay in power
<kyak>
there is >2 billioons of Chinese.. do you think they dislike it that much?
<kyak>
if they did, they wouldn't have such government
<wolfspra1l>
ahh
<wolfspra1l>
:-)
<wolfspra1l>
come to China
<kyak>
but like it, apparantly
<kyak>
*they like it
<wolfspra1l>
it's a perfect prison
<wolfspra1l>
anyway, no company for me here
<wolfspra1l>
my company is in Hong Kong, which is still safe. who knows how long.
<kyak>
ok, i have to trust you here.. never been there
<wolfspra1l>
I am sure it will improve.
<wolfspra1l>
(in China)
<kyak>
i hope not the Egypt way
<kyak>
actually, there are serious concerns in Russia about chinese expanding to Siberia
<wolfspra1l>
they first have to digest tibet and inner mongolia, and fully destroy the old cultures there
<wolfspra1l>
and xinjiang
<kyak>
not in military way, but just crossing the border and starting to dig and plant there
<wolfspra1l>
chinese eat slowly
<wolfspra1l>
yes sure, of course they will do that
<kyak>
btw, have you ever been to nothern Korea? i guess if you compared in to China, China would look like a democratic heaven :)
<wolfspra1l>
from what I hear it is already happening. there are border towns where the russian side is deserted, people leaving to Moscow or larger cities.
<wolfspra1l>
and the Chinese side is bustling, booming, skyscrapers etc.
<wolfspra1l>
they will just cross the river slowly :-)
<wolfspra1l>
one day you wake up and have 50 million Chinese living on Russian territory
<kyak>
yes, this is happening.. too few people in Russia to occupy such territory
<wolfspra1l>
no I have never been to North Korea
<wolfspra1l>
and it is very hard to go there. I've heard the only travel agency to offer tours there is actually in ... Beijing! :-)
<wolfspra1l>
the adventurer in me wanted to call them for a little holiday trip, but then I like my work too much I guess.
<kyak>
or your health :)
<wolfspra1l>
xiangfu is from that area (the chinese side of the border), and it's a brutal border. lots of smuggling, people getting hunted and killed like animals, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
I don't want to go there.
<wolfspra1l>
have some work to do here...
<wolfspra1l>
I hope north and south korea reunite, and the people in the north finally can have a life.
<wolfspra1l>
I really like south korea, as mysterious as it is there.
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: i could imagine that visiting north korea is pretty safe for western foreigners. the travel agency probably calls ahead when they have one, so that the killing gets suspended for a day ;-)
<wpwrak>
so, d-day in egypt ...
<wolfspra1l>
it must be surreal from what I hear
<wolfspra1l>
you can actually do golf tours etc.
<kyak>
with all the crap going on now in middle east it's hard to imaging how the world's map will look like in 20 years
<wolfspra1l>
in a country where hospitals have no heating in winter
<wpwrak>
kyak: the continents will be pretty much where they are now :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: not if the 3rd world war happens!
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: parallel universes for tourists are actually a fairly common sight. if the locals look embarrassingly poor, just fence them out. they don't need beaches or golf courses anyway :)
<kyak>
"parallel universes" - like that! :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: even then :) but i don't see much of a risk for that
<wolfspra1l>
kyak: you understood my point about Google earlier, I assume. Just to clarify - Google picked the side of the Chinese government, they should have picked the side of the Chinese people.
<wolfspra1l>
you say "break the rules", but what do you do if the Constitution says one thing, but in reality every day it's a totally different thing.
<wolfspra1l>
what would you do?
<wolfspra1l>
sue the government? you can try
<wolfspra1l>
you will end like Liu Xiaobo
<kyak>
no, i would just live my damn life
<kyak>
try to earn some money, raise children etc
<wolfspra1l>
many brave people do that actually
<wolfspra1l>
Google is on the right side now, no matter how much their marketshare tanks and how much the govt shuffles to their accomplices at baidu etc.
<wolfspra1l>
baidu will never ever defend the rights of anyone, other than their own bank account balance, of course :-)
<wolfspra1l>
we talked about Google
<wolfspra1l>
the situation is really difficult in China, because the government itself is the criminal
<wolfspra1l>
they break the law every day
<wolfspra1l>
but they insist that the law is upheld, of course
<wolfspra1l>
they know how to stay in power :-)
<wolfspra1l>
you have to pick. give in an start oppressing your neighbors, or become a dissident.
<wolfspra1l>
there is no honesty here, it's the price the society pays for this sytem.
<wolfspra1l>
that's why 99% of the elite, party elite, business elite, tries to send their kids to foreign countries for study
<wolfspra1l>
they all know the price :-)
<kyak>
i sure understand what you are talking about.. i didn't live in USSR for too long, but my parents did. But the thing is, there are positive moments
<wolfspra1l>
so the question for a company like Google is not "do we follow the Chinese laws or not"
<wolfspra1l>
that is a very superficial way to look at it, already the first mistake
<wolfspra1l>
the question is "what do we do if the government forces us to break the law"
<wolfspra1l>
that's a difficult one :-)
<wolfspra1l>
in Beijing, the day you decide to register as a human rights lawyer was the last normal day of your life
<wolfspra1l>
you can, of course. and some do, they try to hold up the law, the Chinese constitution. very brave people indeed.
<wolfspra1l>
it's interesting for me to watch how the google marketshare in China is now crashing down
<wolfspra1l>
pretty amazing
<wolfspra1l>
at least they corrected their mistake after 4 years, not too late
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: (human rights lawyer) i guess the proper procedure would be to become a party member first and then get assigned an undercover task :)
<kyak>
you are saying it like Google is so white and good
<wolfspra1l>
I am specifically talking about Google in China.
<wolfspra1l>
I am happy about the moves they did last year, that's all.
<wolfspra1l>
it was very difficult for them, it's not easy to say goodbye to billions of dollars.
<wolfspra1l>
from what you read there was major disagreement over this among the top-3, with supposedly sergey from russia taking the stance that google should not give in
<wolfspra1l>
that's all just gossip of course, who knows
<wolfspra1l>
maybe it also was a factor in eric schmidt stepping down now. they will certainly suffer more in China now.
<wolfspra1l>
but they did the right move, imho
<wolfspra1l>
once you are in bed with the wrong woman - get out! :-)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: don't worry this is probably the only point where I would defend Google :-)
<kyak>
ok, i was starting to get worried :)
<kyak>
btw, the last time i got angry at google is when i did some search, and it lead me to Amazon. i was never registered there, but google (who else?) somehow gave them my e-mail and first name. So Amazon welcomed me but my first..
<kyak>
..name, but it looked like they are not sure - there we "it's not you? Log out" links everywhere
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, it's horrible
<wolfspraul>
I really need to stop using Google mx and jabber, better do it earlier than later
<wolfspraul>
also still a bit of google docs, but not much
<wolfspraul>
google analytics is already replaced by piwik
<wolfspraul>
also the search quality is so bad lately, I think those content farms with people writing tons of crap pages are taking over
<wolfspraul>
and google is not aggressively kicking them out because ... there are so many google ads on those sites :-)
<wolfspraul>
in parallel apple is building its pay content universe. oh well :-)
<wolfspraul>
freedom is a bit chaotic sometimes, no? :_)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I still couldn't convince myself to regularly use Bing though, maybe I will at some point.
<wolfspraul>
if the google search quality goes down more. reminds me of the altavista days.
<kyak>
yeah, google is loosing positions in regional search here.. however i like gmail and their spam filters
<wpwrak>
apple are doing their best to teach the world a few lessons about freedom and principles :)
<wpwrak>
<3 google search, <3 google's DNS
<wolfspraul>
what? don't understand
<wpwrak>
<3 = heart
<wolfspraul>
you use google dns? do they offer dns for the world as well?
<wpwrak>
8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4
<wolfspraul>
and they officially say this is a free service for the world?
<wpwrak>
and unlike the other "free" DNS, they don't send you a spam IP when the resolution fails
<zrafa>
wpwrak: do you get the community mails from openmoko mailing list? I would like to know if the whole mail mine arrives, or just like web archives shows
<zrafa>
BTW, sorry for the off topic :P
<wolfspraul>
zrafa: pipermail has lots of bugs like that, it's pretty much unmaintained for 10 years or so
<wolfspraul>
I would switch to a replacement in a heartbeat, but haven't found anything good yet, that would justify the switching cost
<kristianpaul>
oh china, seems here they have plans to build a small city in the north of the country (affortunatly i live in the south)
<kristianpaul>
kyak: work at office? i must travel office all days by 2 hrs :/
<kristianpaul>
then move from a place to other, is good you met people and the city a bit more that others, but of course consume energy that been in office all day :(
<kyak>
kristianpaul: only 2 hours? you are lucky, it takes me 2 hours just to get to the office
<kristianpaul>
wow
<LunohoD>
wolfspraul: could you give me the url of that chinese company, which can reverse-engineer hardware boards?
<kristianpaul>
i'll stop complaining :-)
<kyak>
kristianpaul: actually, on the 29th od December it took me 4.5 hours to get back home. heavy traffic in Moscow
<kristianpaul>
and you live just Moscow !!
<kristianpaul>
i live in a town 70km away from capital of my province
<kristianpaul>
too much cars i guess
<kristianpaul>
public massive transportation is good for somethings i guess
<LunohoD>
kyak: use the metro, Luke!
<wolfspraul>
LunohoD: that sounds very broad, not sure what you want exactly.
<wolfspraul>
I had good experience with ma-tek.com, which is in Taiwan not China.
<wolfspraul>
headquartered in Taiwan, they have offices in China too.
<LunohoD>
yes, this is what I need
<LunohoD>
thanks
<wpwrak>
zrafa: ("community") i have about 37 mails dated feb 01 or later
<wpwrak>
zrafa: 39
<roh>
wolfspraul: your cases are done
<steve|m>
uh.. what crap is that.. you only can install the Xilinx ISE Webpack if you enable that spyware feature? "Enable WebTalk to send software, IP and device usage statistics to Xilinx (Always enabled for WebPack license)
<wolfspraul>
roh: just noticed today that your case already made it into wikipedia :-)
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: oh, neat.. thanks for the hint
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: got a MM1 ?
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: no, but want to start playing with FPGAs.. I have a openbench logic sniffer which I want to use as cheap experimenting platform
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: nice
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: about the openbench, does it worth to buy?
<kristianpaul>
I wonder how usefull is his java-based GUI..
<kristianpaul>
s/GUI/Client
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: it works quite well.. there is another java gui which is better than the original imho, and unfinished sigrok support
<kristianpaul>
ah yes i remenber
<kristianpaul>
(sigrok) gui still odd for me, but protocol decode part is promissing
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb-pgm: leave CLK unused (reserved for boards needing an external clock) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ecd9f4a
<wpwrak>
almost a whole day spent on chasing a bloody -1 that was missing :-(
<mstevens>
computers suck
<mstevens>
let's all get jobs in sales
<wpwrak>
better finances. you do well, you get a bonus. you screw up and bring the world on the edge of collapse, you get a bonus as well.
<kristianpaul>
(finances) :-S
<mstevens>
spent most of the last two days doing "why does apache segfault sometimes?"
<kristianpaul>
roh: had you quote the mm1 case in ponoko?
<lekernel>
what for?
<kristianpaul>
i dont have a mm1 case
<lekernel>
so, you can get one from roh
<kristianpaul>
sure
<lekernel>
why go through ponoko?
<lekernel>
they're expensive and they don't support our project
<roh>
is crap
<kristianpaul>
lase cuter price?
<kristianpaul>
ah expensive..
<kristianpaul>
oh better you warned
<kristianpaul>
ok
<roh>
ah. and they dont have the right materials
<kristianpaul>
roh: you still having the wooden case?
<roh>
i dont have a complete kit around right now. but i can make some
<kristianpaul>
how much this wood vesion will be?
<roh>
dunno.
<roh>
not that much cheaper.
<roh>
something like 40E+tax or so?
<roh>
need to go now. the bar is waiting
<kristianpaul>
go
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
roh: you're not going to believe this, i quoted the m1 acrylic case with a local laser cutter suplier and the trought me a price of 12~ USD including acrylic !!!
<kristianpaul>
actually a sheet of 30 cms x 27 cms
<kristianpaul>
still a minor detail about the labeling i hope that dint increase so much prices..
<kristianpaul>
i still wonder
<kristianpaul>
colombia is usually the best place to qoute stuff like this, but may things are changing and i dint notice..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: is or isn't ? :)
<kristianpaul>
s/is/isn't
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: besides, i'd love to see more local production of things. i really dislike that everyone seems to look at wolfgang if anything, however trivial, needs to get made. that's not the point of open hardware.
<kristianpaul>
lookat  wolfgang for trivial things you mean?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so if you can get roh's design locally produced, that would be excellent. not only would you get your case at a much lower cost, but it would also emphasize the whole point of this undertaking.
<kristianpaul>
actually now i'm curious about quouting bep-wpan related stuff with a local PCB suplier
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (trivial) hmm, let's take the most trivial of all, the universal breakout board. the first question is "wolfgang, how much would it be". come on. a piece of pcb :)
<kristianpaul>
yes, copyleft hardware is about you can do copyleft hardware using copyleft plans as well, isnt? :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ;)
<wpwrak>
there are of course issues with producing things. particularly mechanical stuff can be tricky. file formats, tolerances, conventions for representing things, etc.
<kristianpaul>
yes, i remenber firsr SIE board were produced here in bogota.. all was delayed and moving from one suplier to other...
<kristianpaul>
for a bare PCB i think it was ...
<wpwrak>
so it's important to understand these. if we don't, all we have is a set of products that can be made at exactly one place, but where all the pretty design files are incompatible with the rest of the world.
<kristianpaul>
may be SMT but i'm not sure
<wpwrak>
or maybe they're not, but we'll never know.
<wpwrak>
maybe SIE was too complicated. shouldn't be excessive, though.
<kristianpaul>
(are incompatible with the rest of the world.) good point
<kristianpaul>
2 layers seems not cause so much trouble but you already pointed the most common issues
<wpwrak>
is SIE only two layers ?
<kristianpaul>
sure
<kristianpaul>
let me confirm
<wpwrak>
oh. that should be easy then. DIY grade ;-)
<kristianpaul>
yeah !
<kristianpaul>
I have a friend in bogota same business as carlos but he started latelly he made a 6 layer board using a avr32, something kidn similar to gumstick
<kristianpaul>
He ordered PCB from china i think, but solder all here
<kristianpaul>
it was SOOO messy and he wasted lots of time and money
<kristianpaul>
i think from 10 PCB just 2 worked...
<wpwrak>
6 layers is where it begins to get difficult :)
<wpwrak>
where were the problems ? with the pcbs or the soldering ?
<kristianpaul>
and the best parts all in Kicad !!
<kristianpaul>
SIE is 2 layers, i confirm
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i think mainly with avr chip
<wpwrak>
what was the problem with the avrs ?
<kristianpaul>
i could not get it work with his modified oven so he finally found a small company in bogota that do SMT or some procedire with laser
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: BGA packing
<kristianpaul>
package**
<kristianpaul>
wow atmel is really beating in touch technologies those days
<wpwrak>
(bga) ah yes, if you diy these, your yield goes down :)
<wpwrak>
that is, unless you get yourself the right kind of rework capabilities. it won't be cheap, though.
<kristianpaul>
freerunner how many layers is?
<kristianpaul>
this guy is very smart i think now is trought making a radar  for selling to local army, mainly intended for ships
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: phones have 6-8 layers
<steve|m>
the pirelli I grinded down had 8
<kristianpaul>
8 !!
<kristianpaul>
there is posible to have more layers?
<kristianpaul>
oh god (krishna?), rtems confirm my no end internal mind discussion abos tasks and threads... https://gist.github.com/812106
<steve|m>
Halogen Free Multi-layer PCB: 4 to 22 layers
<steve|m>
uh.. 22 layers
<kristianpaul>
pirelli and sandpaper tecnique i remenber
<kristianpaul>
nice work btw
<kristianpaul>
22... :-|
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: yeah.. still need to do some writeup and post it on the ml (as I promised wolfgang)
<kristianpaul>
after that 2 and 4 laters should be DIY ;-)
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: will be great !
<kristianpaul>
sorry, i mean  4 and 6***
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: are you rev eng pirelli schmatics using some OCR sofware from the pics you showed?
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: no.. guess this would't work really well.. I just loaded up all layers in GIMP and traced the stuff I needed
<steve|m>
most of the schematics is the TI Calypso reference design anyway, but the special stuff like TSPACT wiring, jtag pinout etc. isn't
<steve|m>
plus tracing is quite fun.. like reading sourcecode is :)
<larsc>
but sometimes it hurts ;)
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: i guess i gimp every layer have a separate color and transparencies? that should look very nice
<kristianpaul>
s/i/in
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: colors don't work out that well.. I just fade between the layers.. if there's a via, I make a dot there, fade in the layer where the via ends and continue tracing there
<kristianpaul>
i'll be waiting your mail :-)
<steve|m>
hehe.. actually I didn't even take pictures of the 'setup'..