<tuxbrain>
next new releases will have cute entries :)
<tuxbrain>
mirko's rf, Jay7 wife's cases, werner's ubb, fosdem pics ,kristianpaul's MM lua port and sure I'm missing something
<tuxbrain>
mirko did you have any other rf source to comm with NN?, a video demo of it working will be awesome to have :)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: can you add a few of those things are notes to the news page?
<wolfspraul>
I'll do it too but I have trouble keeping up with everything sometimes...
<tuxbrain>
Ya with rfm12 and 6lowpan the new rf standard instead of Bluetooth an wifi :)
<tuxbrain>
ok wolf I will
<wolfspraul>
no need for prettyprinting, just drop a note
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: the work of your wife is truly amazing! also congrats from me! Can you or your wife license this under cc-by so I can upload the pics into the qi wiki?
<wolfspraul>
if you just say 'that's ok' in this channel, that's perfectly fine...
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: did you see the case group hug?
<tuxbrain>
yep, I would love see Jane and Jay7's wife working toguether on this, huge potential dude
<tuxbrain>
Jay7: how many time takes to your wife do one of this marvells?
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: did you say you want to have a cnc machine do the crocheting?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
did I understand you correctly there?
<tuxbrain>
yep
<tuxbrain>
that would be awesome :)
<wolfspraul>
ha! :-) hilarious
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
I think it would be very very hard, but hey, anything is possible. Don't underestimate the human hand...
<tuxbrain>
yeah awesome and funny at same time, yes I agree on dificulty I don't know how crochet works, but I remember my grandma doing very quick and complicated movements , if that movements can be translated to some kind of rotary/linear movements, as for example a sewing machine, can face it, a crochet RipRap or makerbot head. a video showing on slow motion the diferent crochet movements and diferent kind of dots, might help to think in such cnc tool.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: hi! i made some adjustments to the bot and documented it in server_setup. Could you have a look if this is sufficient to not swap it away on server reinstall/cleanup? :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: no worry, I came across a bit drakonian, but actually I very much appreciate every bit of help, as you know :-)
<wolfspraul>
let me check the doc...
<wolfspraul>
oh I think it's nice!
<wolfspraul>
you built the 2 .so files on your local machine?
<kyak>
nope, on the server
<wolfspraul>
yes we could document that, but we can also do that next time. documentation can improve slowly :-)
<wolfspraul>
I may go over it one day to format it a bit more in line with the rest, but it's great! thanks a lot!
<wolfspraul>
so those modules are already working now?
<wolfspraul>
how does it work? we can send commands to qi-bot?
<kyak>
sure
<kyak>
!stats wolfspraul
<wolfspraul>
!stats wolfspraul
<kyak>
liek this :)
<wolfspraul>
oh
<kyak>
public commands are mentioned in wiki
<wolfspraul>
does everybody see the response?
<kyak>
same can be used in private msg, without "!"
<rjeffries>
!stats rjeffries
<wolfspraul>
private msg to the bot?
<wolfspraul>
/msg qi-bot ?
<kyak>
yes, the response is sent to channel or privates msg
<kyak>
/msg qi-bot stat #qi-hardware nick
<kyak>
yea, me to -\
<rjeffries>
luak a small suggestion> IMO "stats" is more natural that "stat"
<kyak>
np to add anothe bind
<rjeffries>
s/luak/kyak
<kyak>
luke :)
<rjeffries>
what does idle-factor mean
<kyak>
some ratio between the time you idle and time you speak
<kyak>
the bigger the factor, the less you speak
<rjeffries>
so 99 would be nearly pure lurker and 0.5 would be always talking more or less
<kyak>
i think so
<rjeffries>
ok. cool.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: is there a way to upload text files (like configs) in wiki?
<wolfspraul>
I just added .txt upload for Jane, but she said it didn't work for her (strange cause I tested it)
<wolfspraul>
in general I would say - no
<wolfspraul>
the idea of wiki is wiki marup
<wolfspraul>
markup
<wolfspraul>
uploads are at best meant for really non-textual files like audio, video, pictures
<wolfspraul>
of course we are also uploading pdfs, and there is a nice viewer for them
<kyak>
what is the best way to keep track of changed config files according to your scheme?
<wolfspraul>
especially for pdfs that we get from outside, there really is no other option
<wolfspraul>
I just remember the edits I made manually.
<wolfspraul>
(remember = document)
<wolfspraul>
some people go as far as putting the entire /etc folder into a revision control system etc. (david mentioned something along those lines yesterday)
<wolfspraul>
I use this free-style notes only, the way you wrote it there is perfect.
<kyak>
ok, i didn't mention what was changed in configs, but it's not a big deal.. the configs are relatively tiny
<kyak>
the *.so build process is "documented" in bash_history, so won't be too hard to extract it, too :)
<tuxbrain>
wiki is randomly failing, can you check on your part?
<wolfspra1l>
don't worry what you have looks great. we can improve this later.
<wolfspra1l>
bash_history documentation sounds a bit, well, exotic ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
tuxbrain: just added a url, worked
<wolfspra1l>
in which way does it fail for you?
<kyak>
not so bad, put it in revision control, make infinite history size (or rotate it), and all your changes are documented, too :)
<kyak>
of course, you need to edit configs with sed/awk :)
<wolfspraul>
svn for config is over-engineered imho, I want to document system-level decisions too, rescue plans, lvm setup, snapshot scripts, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so I just use a free-flow text file, basically 'notes'
<wolfspraul>
but there are many good systems, if someone else uses svn for config, fine, I would go along
<wolfspraul>
I could put my extra stuff in /etc/dont_forget.conf
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
wow, on the Nokia front I just read that Nokia spends 4 times as much on R&D than Apple
<wolfspraul>
it certainly doesn't look like that... :-)
<kyak>
Nokia has 10 times more devices than Apple.. so it could be
<wolfspraul>
they must be 10 times less effective
<wolfspraul>
oh I'm sure the money is spent
<wolfspraul>
that's always the easy part. getting results, and focusing them on one spot, is a bit harder.
<tuxbrain>
ok me also but navigator has  has return some server too much long to respond errors
<wolfspraul>
is it working for you now or you still have issues?
<tuxbrain>
apple mkt department is what is awesome, not his R+D
<tuxbrain>
now is working
<wolfspraul>
I am aware of intermettent problems, very hard to track down.
<wolfspraul>
my only hope would be a complete from-scratch installation, for example on Debian Squeeze
<wolfspraul>
or a controlled upgrade to a clean Squeez
<wolfspraul>
but that's a lot of work, so for now we can just 'hang in' with the wiki...
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: if you have more trouble, please holler
<wolfspraul>
I'm editing all the time too, and I think the problems are rare.
<kyak>
xiangfu: hi! good to see you back :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: Hi
<xiangfu>
kyak: finally, I back to Beijing. :)
<kyak>
did you have a good rest?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: ah hi!
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: you were so dearly missed that kyak even installed a seen extension to qi-bot so we can monitor when you come back :-)
<xiangfu>
haha :-)
<xiangfu>
kyak: much better now. arrive Beijing today morning.
<kyak>
xiangfu: can i start buggin you already? :) we need your git super powers to merge latest backfire into our branch. There was some important backport of cmake.mk
<kyak>
xiangfu: could you perhaps create a short how-to do it?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: ah yes, and David reported a gettext compile error. I wanted to run a config.full_system build myself to reproduce it, but now that you are there maybe you will get to it before me...
<wolfspraul>
if you took an overnight train, maybe you need to rest a little first :-)
<xMff>
try changing PKG_FIXUP:=libtool to PKG_FIXUP:=autoreconf
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: :)
<xMff>
I'll soon backport the whole autofoo workarounds from trunk
<wpwrak>
xMff: how about a little expert system, let's call it "luddite", that liberates projects from autofoo, leaving a nice and clean makefile ? ;-)
<kyak>
xMff: hmm, now it fails from the very beginneing
<xMff>
autofail ftw
<wpwrak>
;-)
<kyak>
well ok, we'll just wait for that magica backport and take it together with cmake.mk :)
<mirko>
away
<mirko>
tuxbrain: a little video demonstrating switching units is planned :)
<mirko>
however i'd like to finish one feature first (state sharing)
<tuxbrain>
hi all , ok mirko , good morning rjeffries :)
<rjeffries>
joke mode ON tuxbrain, will you sell me a quantity of UBB when it is ready I can be yur USA sub-distributor
<tuxbrain>
ok :) once I got prices I will ask you how many do you want, I think due it size we can use the regular mail with some "warranties" to avoid lossess and so (spain national mail is a nighmare) to not increase much the price due shipping.
<roh>
tv is idsb if its japan, such it wouldn work anywhere besides there.
<roh>
i knew the netwalker and its about 450E, which iss too expensive. that one could sell for 200 given real volume
<rjeffries>
I like Netwalker but the price is high
<roh>
sure. my thought was that the is01 solves that
<rjeffries>
what is is01 please
<rjeffries>
I had a discouraging discuzzion with a group of 20 hackers last night about Ben Nanonote
<wolfspraul>
roh: how do we get the m1 cases to Taiwan?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (ubb) giving up on looking for a pcb maker in the US already ?
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries: discouraging?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak: have not had time yet. very busy period. will get first email off now
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain: I will write a short report to the qi-hardware list. briefly, they think it is better to buy say a used android phone and root it
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (ubb) so you're still trying. good. will be useful for also have quotes from different places.
<tuxbrain>
bah, antivendor scheme is a no go business...
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I am convinced UBB will be important. no problemo. but smart people are not convinced of value of Ben
<wolfspraul>
there is no way you can convince them otherwise I think, the only thing that works is lead by example.
<wolfspraul>
I hope they actually do some reverse engineering though, and not just more armchair generals.
<rjeffries>
they really dislike lack of WiFi, and are not members of the Wolfgang Church of Copyleft
<wolfspraul>
I've done a lot. I believed in this approach, wait, maybe 8 years ago? (for phones)
<rjeffries>
well two people may order. I can;t do grouo buy, but the price difference to them is only an extar $20
<wolfspraul>
they've probably also never got a complete wifi solution to actually work well (you could ask them).
<wolfspraul>
it's hard to discuss when there is a big experience gap. I'm not sure what they did or plan to do, maybe they have some ideas we overlooked :-)
<wolfspraul>
but of course, it sounds very familiar. just need to keep in mind that in my experience, 95% of people just talk, at most 5% act
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (root android) that's called the antivendor approach. it's been tried and failed miserably. it looks attractive but is only applicable in very very small niches.
<rjeffries>
these guys at a Hackerspace are quite practical they use Arduino to control robots that sort of thing. they are not bad guys at all
<wolfspraul>
nobody said that. we talk about phones in particular.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I am not representing thier viewpoint. I am only reporting. They did listen (it was irc) but were not moved
<wolfspraul>
sure. it's good you tried.
<wolfspraul>
most people simply gave up on phones, that's what I hear
<rjeffries>
data on how potential customers view a product is neither good or bad it just  is data
<rjeffries>
these guys are not into phones
<wolfspraul>
is also a far stretch to imagine if you look at the Ben :-)
<rjeffries>
more on the robot front. amd other little hardwar eprojects such as a LED cube that makes pretty colors
<wolfspraul>
I will try to get some voip software to it, it has speaker and microphone, maybe something can work.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: anti-vendor also has its issues outside of phones. maybe slightly less, because you have a little less closed junk and a bit longer lifecycles, but still
<rjeffries>
wolfgang when the wpwrak radio for Ben and matching radio for PC is ready that may really help
<roh>
wolfspraul: not sure yet. was in bed the last days
<rjeffries>
my idea is Ben as dedicated controller in home automation network will be interesting
<roh>
rjeffries: do you read whats written here or only write?
<wpwrak>
kyak: we should also get the commits/words ratio :-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak guys I can go away. thanks for such a friendly atmosphere. I never presented mself as aLinux software guru
<steve|m>
words/commits: Division by zero!
<steve|m>
;)
<roh>
rjeffries: scroll up.
<wolfspraul>
roh: ok. do you feel better now?
<roh>
rjeffries: your question suggest that you do not read what i wrote.
<wpwrak>
steve|m: that's why you have to pick your operands carefully ;-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: a bit. on the way... still in bed tho
<wolfspraul>
roh: my current favorite is 2 * 2kg airmail letter. print the chinese address on a label and attach outside as well.
<wolfspraul>
my worry would be how long it takes to ship, but I'm not really in a rush (want to get it off the table though). and theoretically if it's lost, not sure for letters there is any sort of insurance.
<wolfspraul>
well, it should arrive
<wolfspraul>
maybe we just do that?
<wolfspraul>
I hope you get a receipt that can proove it was exported.
<wolfspraul>
roh: let me know when you are fully recovered then we seal the (shipping) deal.
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure
<wolfspraul>
I want to get those 10 to Taiwan first, play with them a little, then order the next 80 (or 75) at some point.
<wpwrak>
using a transceiver without any RF components at all is fun. it works. just about 30 dB weaker than with them :-)
<wolfspraul>
you mean without antenna?
<roh>
wolfspraul: to be fair: i still think its uneconomic to send such amounts of stuff around the planet twice
<wpwrak>
without antenna, balun, dc blocking caps
<roh>
somehow even unecologic *sigh*
<wpwrak>
roh: you're so sure the shipments will get lost ?
<roh>
no. not that. its just expensive and if its sent back to europe in the end its kinda superflous
<rjeffries>
steve|m give me a break, nit everyone in this community does the same thing. some people crochet cases. some write driver. others create acrylic cases for Milkymist. some are serious DIY onlookers who want to fand a way to use Ben in clever ways.\
<wpwrak>
roh: ah, you mean sent back with an mm1 inside ? well, for europe, local distributors may be more attractive anyway
<roh>
rjeffries: about your 'talks with hackers'
<rjeffries>
roh message me to tell me what I should have read. I read it all. I also later read the damn logs
<rjeffries>
what about it roh? don't be shy I can take it
<roh>
rjeffries: i have one old prototype and some oem device with different sw but basically the same mainboard around. no 'final' nanonote.
<roh>
still i wouldnt know a single friend or hacker around here who i could sell one of these.
<rjeffries>
ok. cool. so maybe we have similar data. thank you, I agree the use case if one is not strong copylet person is weak
<roh>
propably in for-me-unparsable-ja-chars anyhow
<wolfspraul>
roh: I agree but I cannot optimize that aspect now. I need to get the whole package together, and fast, and sell it.
<wolfspraul>
then we can optimize optimize optimize. and that is definitely one part of it, for sure.
<roh>
rjeffries: well.. what usecase? you can use it for what its sold in asia.. as lexicon, as translator (install dict? etc)
<roh>
but without connectivity.. nada.
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure
<roh>
rjeffries: i got suggestions to use it as kind of a crypto-vault (which is basically the only usecase which i know which needs to NOT have connnectivity.
<roh>
but thats senseless without hw support like a real rng etc.
<rjeffries>
roh yes I looked at that Pulster is01 page earlier. I loke that device. I do not like the price so yes, if somone could shenzen it, that would be awesome
<wpwrak>
roh: with UBB you can use to talk to your electronics :) i must say i quite enjoy using it in this role - much more convenient than gta02+debug board or, even worse, concocting something that attaches to a pc
<roh>
rjeffries: 250E isnt that bad.
<roh>
wpwrak: ubb still doesnt solve the issue. it mediates it. not solve.
<rjeffries>
I think woldspraul is an existence proof that shenzen process does not translate into fabulous sales
<roh>
wpwrak: i think we should step up. we are much too slow right now.
<wpwrak>
roh: UBB helps you talk to your electronics
<roh>
wpwrak: ubb is your new name for 'the 802.15.4 wireless modem'?
<wpwrak>
roh: (step up) oh, agrees. but this needs more resources. any suggestions  ? :)
<wpwrak>
roh: (UBB) you've really been out for a long time ;)
<wpwrak>
roh: UBB is your "tldr" :)
<roh>
2 things: you guys rename shit too often. and second these 'abbreviations' do only generate confusion
<roh>
i mean.. if I cannot follow you guys.. that should be a bright blinking red indicator.
<wpwrak>
roh: UBB started as UBB and was never renamed :)
<roh>
hm. there isnt even a wikipage about it
<roh>
aaah.. now i get it. the breakout thingie?
<roh>
nah. that solves nothing for non-devels.
<rjeffries>
yup
<roh>
nice to play for guys like me. but we solder smt directly to the nn if needed.
<wpwrak>
roh: (crypto-vault) i don't think you need a high-rate source of randomness. the existing low-rate sources should be plenty.
<roh>
wpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world-sales angle.
<roh>
wpwrak: for proper crypto we need proper random. currently we got NONE.
<roh>
and kids bs like noisy resistors isnt good enough by far.
<roh>
btw. that crypto vault idea was suggested by someone living from crypto products he produces.
<wpwrak>
roh: UBB could be attractive for basically the same demographic group that today does arduino. that's already a few. certainly no world domination yet, but a start.
<wpwrak>
roh: win one segment at a time :)
<roh>
wpwrak: sure. but why use a board which needs a device which costs 100E?
<roh>
arduinos cost 2-digit euros. some even one-digit.
<wpwrak>
roh: for development. maybe you make it autonomous later. whatever.
<roh>
the cpu costs 2.30E
<roh>
(atmega168 or so)
<roh>
we use it a lot.
<roh>
but usually via isp and not with an arduino bootloader. and basically never with arduino pcb
<wpwrak>
roh: (crypto vault) it's kind of an obvious idea :) i had the same idea when wolfgang visited last year. still haven't made the bestie yet, though
<roh>
the difference between arduino and avr for me is 'reproduceability for people less experienced as me'
<roh>
thus i use the .pde style files and their libs quite often.
<wpwrak>
roh: (crypto vault) i'd be much less worried about the RNG than about device integrity. attacks against the crypto or the RNG are very rare and basically only happen if you have ancient stuff or int random(void) { return 4; /* random dice throw */ }
<wpwrak>
roh: (avr) what's .pde ?
<roh>
wpwrak: the arduino 'sources'
<steve|m>
'sketch'
<rjeffries>
compared with Ben, Arduinio community is huge
<roh>
it gets preprocessed by adding a header and then compiled by avr-gcc. nothing weird.
<wpwrak>
roh: ah, poor man's IDE :)
<roh>
in the end Arduinio is the way teaching people C without the need to let them know up infront
<rjeffries>
smiles: 05:27 <roh> wpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world sales angle //WAIT that is MY job description. we should start  aUnion
<dvdk>
who complained about missing RNG in nanonote?  just sample the microphone input :)
<roh>
dvdk: you need to go back to school about whats random really is;)
<roh>
and true. rng is only ONE of the issues
<dvdk>
roh: who needs to go back to school here? :)Â Â entropy is entropy even if not in the shape of a gauss distribution.
<dvdk>
hi xiangfu, thanks; maybe won't be able to do anything about that until saturday
<wpwrak>
roh: (pde) hmm yes, a bit clumsy but definitely C
<xiangfu>
dvdk: sure.
<wpwrak>
roh: (tamper protection for the RNG) probably overkill. that would only matter if the device is being tampered with when you generate your keys.
<dvdk>
roh: but part of if is. (i.e. thermical noise of amplifier, whatever).  i.e. there is _some_ entropy in it.  more than you could otherwise (easily) gather in the nn.
<wpwrak>
roh: (tamper protection) i would just install a keylogger ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: not for the rng. for the full device.
<wpwrak>
roh: (full device) ah, here we agree :)
<roh>
wpwrak: like in well built otp-generators or cash terminals.
<wpwrak>
roh: yeah. fill it with phosphor and seal it airtight. that should teach the tamperers :)
<rjeffries>
I would use a password vault. but wpwrak is right, the main PC must be secure. it is a Hard Problem
<wpwrak>
roh: another tricky problem is replacement
<wpwrak>
roh: in the end, it all depend how valuable a target you are
<roh>
dvdk: its still no proper random that can or should be used for crypto. it could be ONE of several sources. but its by far too bad.
<roh>
to be used alone atleast.
<wpwrak>
roh: (random) do you know how /dev/random works ? with the randomness pool, different sources, and rate control ?
<dvdk>
roh: i'm lacking the crypto background; just judging from signal processing (wireless comm.) stuff I did.  there we had the reverse problem, though.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: hah, when we add wireless, we let the crypt-vault just suck all the randomness bits out of the signal. both win ;-))
<dvdk>
also I'd say, putting microphone samples in a long, long "shift register", the output should tend to gaussian distribution (when shift reg long enough).  as there's no long-time correlation in the input samples (long-long-time correlation cannot even be 'injected' by an attacker due to clock drift, jitter etc.)
<dvdk>
i mean shift-register with taps and xor/adding for output, btw
<rjeffries>
marketing ideaL rename the radio as H2O RANDOMNESS SUCKER
<wpwrak>
dvdk: naw, you make a pool. xor any new bit(s) with the pool, then run the pool through a hash to "mix" the new bits with the rest.
<dvdk>
whatever we do, bit-rate of entropy bits won't be much larger than 2*sample_rate
<wpwrak>
dvdk: LSRs are a bit scary for crypto applications. i would use something stronger. md5 or such.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: probably much less
<roh>
wpwrak: i do. i wouldnt use it for a cryptovault.
<roh>
dvdk: dont reinvent the wheel badly. please. read up about random.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: was just a "thought experiment".  you won't be able to statistically analyze microphone-input + md5 :)
<roh>
also please differenciate between rng and prng
<roh>
afaik the best method is 'lava lamps'
<wpwrak>
roh: that's a very high-rate random number source. well, perhaps we're talking about different usage scenarios. what i have in mind is a password safe. there you need just a few kbits every now and then
<dvdk>
you guys are probably right. and more educated than me.
<wpwrak>
roh: you can of course over-engineer the rng at your heart's content, but that's like gold-plated cables for audiophiles :)
<roh>
dvdk: only for the fun aspect. i know people who only survived certain situation due to proper crypto.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: yeah, that's their BATNA :)
<wpwrak>
roh: their opponents can't have been very serious. when i rule the world, i'll not only have those executed who know something they shouldn't, but also those i suspect of knowing something :)
<roh>
wpwrak: wrong side. you cant be forced to give up passwords in .de
<roh>
one of the reasons i dont ever visit us or uk.
<dvdk>
roh: you mean, cannot be forced /by the government/
<roh>
dvdk: ack.
<wpwrak>
roh: i'm sure this little oversight will be corrected in one way or another when it matters
<rjeffries>
wpwrak You have mail.
<roh>
wpwrak: nope. i dont see that. we will have other issues first.
<wpwrak>
whoa. soon, i'll need a rjeffries folder :)
<rjeffries>
wpwraK yes, you will. it is all good
<roh>
wpwrak: in the end its not politician who decide. its business. and business around here has no interrest in giving up their secret passwords. think deutsche bank and such;)
<roh>
especially not to law enforcement
<roh>
*vbg*
<wpwrak>
roh: business will of course be exempted. at least in real life :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: he didn't really understand what you want. you should have sent him at least a link to the gerbers
<rjeffries>
well I can tell him I have the gerbers
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: send him the link. don't make him ask for every bit of information individually :)
<rjeffries>
is there now one or two links that describe the project? pls remind me
<rjeffries>
my friend is a busy guy I only asked him for high level info. I may send the package to that consultant guy however
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: maybe just forward him the production section of the mail. plus a link to a picture of the board.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: for panelization, the best would be if the fab can do it. for this, they need to understand that the pcb itself is the final product. i.e., you don't care in which form and arrangement you receive the pcbs. in particular, you don't won't feed them to any machine (smt or such)
<rjeffries>
the guy who answered me has other things to do. he pointed me to resources. I can send them a package, once I find the right bits
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: if the fab doesn't want to do it, then you need their specs for doing it
<rjeffries>
ok, rw panelization I get it
<rjeffries>
ok fine
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (resources) ok. try them then. maybe also ping your "consultant" for possibly cheaper places.
<rjeffries>
consultant can send it to China and the extra time is a don't care
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the main constraints are board thickness and the accuracy of the cut. the cheapest "hobbyist" places can't even do 0.8 mm. (and they won't be able to cut the board either)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: china is always an option, yes. there, they also have modern machines :)
<rjeffries>
I have already figured that out
<rjeffries>
so I get maybe 250 emails a day. do I look in qi-hardware mail list archive to find the correct emails?
<wpwrak>
if you search long enough, you'll find old-fashioned places that only do things > 10 mil and with 100 mil copper-to-board-edge separation ;-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you know a LT about pcb fab
<wpwrak>
only 250 ? lucky man. yes, the "the Universal Breakout Board (UBB)" thread
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (know a lot) only some basics. i've never had one manufactured myself. the simple ones, i rather do myself. the complex ones quickly get too expensive for this poor hobbyist.
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak pls look at this page. are top two items what I should use?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: and the section "Industrially producing UBB"
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (unless your friend likes to read a lot :)
<rjeffries_>
now I have too edit? /// laughs out loud /// you assume a high IQ that may or may not be true
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: well, let your secretary do it :)
<rjeffries_>
oh, now I need ti hire a secretary. Great idea. I'll get on it. ;)
<rjeffries_>
I am creating an email now
<roh>
anybody tried the web-calculators of the prominent pcb manufs?
<roh>
ah. pcb-pool doesnt have 0.8 in the online-thingie. custom quote has it.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: maybe I will have access to a smt machine soon, also this guy works on recover things with plastic instead of pack them in a box (whatever techname it has) , what about if instead of build a box for atben/atusb, recover them with resin?
<tuxbrain>
I have to talk directly to him to have more info
<rjeffries_>
roh I tried one of online web tools was a pain in the ass everything needed to be in inches
<roh>
heh. imperial crap. used by the us and ... birma.
<wpwrak>
roh: i ran one on 4pcb. per-board cost about USD 1 for ~1-2 kunits
<wpwrak>
roh: it's a bit hard to calculate this, because they have a minimum size of 1 in x 1 in
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (resin) hmm, that's not very open, isn't it ?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: if all else fails, we could just dunk them in silicone. that can be removed cleanly, if necessary
<tuxbrain>
no a resined electronic will be dificult to hack indeed,
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: i also found non-corrosive silicone :)
<tuxbrain>
but we can have some unresined ones for hack and covered ones.. is an option, whatever I must asses me better on this once I talk with the guy
<roh>
wpwrak: pcbpool seems to have no problem doing 100pcs of 10x30mm boards
<roh>
1.0 and 1.6mm thick is about the same cost
<roh>
dunno about 0.8
<roh>
its about 1.0-1.2E/piece
<tuxbrain>
I say resin but I have not clear what material is , is used to give ip65 to things from electronics to passtrough holes for cables
<roh>
tuxbrain: dunno. both dead cheap withing europe.
<roh>
no customs. where on earth are you?
<tuxbrain>
sorry I was thinking it was in china, I'm from spain dude :)
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I have draft email to PCB consultant in your mail box
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: I know that kind of silicon :) I had worked in costruction in my youth, but this kind of cober will not protect the electronics to torsion or hits... is a very soft an elastic material.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: looks good. i would remove the two references at the end, though. they're from a different section
<rjeffries_>
I wondered about that
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: torsion and hits ... leave your ben at home when you go to the fight club ! ;-)
<tuxbrain>
it will need quite thick amount to cover it to protect from hits and avoid be removed by friction... and my nasty mind imagin such thing with that amount of silicon and with this touch feel will look like a sexual toy
<tuxbrain>
and there was enough fun on this with OM and the vibrator aplication :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: the 8:10 card slot should quite severely limit the amount of fun you could get out of this little toy ...
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries_: we can have some nude boards for hackers and so, but I don't thing ,if rentable, that cover the electronics to avoid accidental shortcuts and give it some protection is a bad idea
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: maybe you should think of it like an us-american strip club. just look, but no touching :)
<tuxbrain>
is not the size is how you use it
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain at the start I would leave it bare. send advice on how to solder ribbon cable and dip in silicon
<tuxbrain>
I know that this gonna happens when I mentioned "sexual" on a geek channel :P
<rjeffries_>
I am inclined to buy the flat ribbin cable and ship a short length so user doesn't need to find that vital item
<tuxbrain>
nonono not talking on UBB, I was talking on atben/atusb
<tuxbrain>
that has electronics and maybe used by not so DiY guys
<tuxbrain>
UBB is clearly a DIY audience
<rjeffries_>
tuxbarin agree
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain I agree UBB is DIY and other experimenters
<rjeffries_>
marketing idea: JEFFRIES RESEARCH we sell NIDE Boards. X-rated. mailed in plian envelope
<rjeffries_>
s/nide/NUDE
<rjeffries_>
BEDROOM BEN NANONOTE makes your woman orgasm faster
<tuxbrain>
I cannot discard our artist in comunitye use UBB them for any else porpose
<tuxbrain>
but maybe not with you due you problable being hacking on BNN
<tuxbrain>
Ben NN the IT powder box is for me the best definiton now a days :)
<Mauro_R>
nice photos :-) I think that this new year it's between 2 and 17 of february ...
<rjeffries_>
phone model cycle is now 6 to9 months use3d to be 3 years
<rjeffries_>
Motorola Razor was top model for FIVE (5) years. FIVE YEARS
<tuxbrain>
time to be father for a while, see you later guys
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (sd card link) yeah. but what you need are the non-public dimensions ;-)
<rjeffries_>
ok no big deal to me I thinbk you already know what is needed
<rjeffries_>
I noticed that document said 1 mm thickness rather tha 0.8 mm ;)
<wpwrak>
yes, that's the overall thickness of the card. the contacts are a bit on the inside, though
<wpwrak>
but maybe you can fit an 1.0 mm board, too
<wpwrak>
(if you can find one in the US ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: if you want to make it perfect, you can try to glue some plastic sheet on the non-contact part of the permanently inserted zone. the transparency films used for laser printers are about 100 um so plus glue and all, it would be about right.
<rjeffries_>
wpwtak sorry to be dumb but the transparancy film would be to provide insulation I think?
<wpwrak>
that, but you don't really need isolation, because a) the traces there could only really touch metal parts with the same signal, and b) you already have a solder mask there.
<wpwrak>
but it would add thickness, so you get to the nominal 1.0 mm. and you could use it for decorative purposes :)
<wpwrak>
in any case, don't worry. you don't need it.
<roh>
rjeffries_: i still use a motorola razr v3i. the second now. (first one died of mechanical issues/got unreliable)
<rjeffries>
sTazoe/Razor that is a funny typo
<rjeffries>
the transparency film could carry contact info (where to buy)
<kyak>
suddenly realizes that dvdk is David Kuehling
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: fwiw, "qi-hw.com" is already printed on the silk screen (if you keep it)
<rjeffries>
that URL does not seem to work/
<rjeffries>
look if I make this investment of time and risk a few bucks, I will NOT take credit for the work og wprak
<rjeffries>
that is not what I am about
<rjeffries>
s/og/of
<rjeffries>
may add label that says" //joke mode ON: PROOF OF CONCEPT
<rjeffries>
too bad wolfsoraul is asleep (I assume)
<rjeffries>
that one is for wolfspraul as you know
<rjeffries>
cool it now works when I first tried it a few days a go no worky
<rjeffries>
that is a good url IÂ Â LOVE how short it is!!!!
<rjeffries>
I thought I'd have a photo of myself on that laser printed protective label. The Cornel Sanders of th eUBB Empire
<rjeffries>
Kentucky Fried Chicken is still big in USA and, I think, China
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: btw, to "sell" the ben to your hacker friends, you really ought to meet them in real life and show them the device. its compactness has a convincing effect of its own that just looking at pictures and specs doesn't.
<dvdk>
kyak: pssst, don't tell anyone :)Â Â constantly trying to escape the google indexer.
<kyak>
dvdk: pssst, don't mention google, or it will index you :)
<dvdk>
is looking for a new nick :)
<kyak>
dvdk: anyway, good to meet you here :) it's much more convenient to drop a couple of lines in IRC rather than writing an e-mail
<kyak>
doesn't like mailing lists
<dvdk>
kyak: only if the recipient is watching the irc channel
<dvdk>
only likes irc as long as it isn't logged :)
<kyak>
how is logging in IRC different from mailing lists logging?
<dvdk>
might get fired for watching irc while at work :)
<kyak>
me too
<kyak>
:)
<dvdk>
kyak: good argument.
<kyak>
or even for commits during workday...hmmm
<dvdk>
is planning to create the timestamp obfuscating git client :)
<kyak>
is a very good idea!
<dvdk>
is also planning to make an irc logfile nick anonymizer :)
<dvdk>
is new no irc, btw.
<kyak>
what if the local date is changed just before the commit..?
<kyak>
will this time be recorded in commit?
<dvdk>
kyak: you're right that's the nice thing about distributed version control.  no central server -> no central clock.
<dvdk>
s/no/to/
<kyak>
hm cool! what if this time is "before" the last recorded commit in repo?
<kyak>
so looks like it's the matter of env GIT_AUTHOR_DATE
<kyak>
might want to create a wrapper around git commit
<dvdk>
:)
<dvdk>
i guess that may trigger problems with Make for people trying to build after pull.  but then they'll just have to wait till midnight.
<kyak>
hmm, do you think this date is set for all the files in repo?
<dvdk>
might be set for modified files on checkout
<dvdk>
Make doesn't like future timestamps
<kyak>
what about setting it to the previous date?
<dvdk>
hmm, i guess git must set the timestamp of the checkout, not the timestamp of the commit, else make won't correctly rebuild anyways
<dvdk>
so future dates won't be a prlobme
<kyak>
yeah, sounds reasonable
<kyak>
do you have a commit to test? :)
<dvdk>
not today :)
<dvdk>
but the future midnight :)
<kyak>
ok, i'll try to remember it next time i commit
<dvdk>
can't await to see whether it works
<kyak>
will commit always at 4 a.m. My employer won't have a clue ;) I'm a tough man, working at nights :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: then rumors will start spreading that you're always sleepy during the day :)
<kyak>
good point :)
<lekernel>
wow, when I hear that I'm happy of my choice of not having an employer to tell me where I should commit code and when :)
<rjeffries>
looks like someone will soon have their hands on a Ben
<wpwrak>
and besides the heisenboard, there's the tamagochiban (i wonder if this kind of morphing works - anyone speaking japanese here ? :). the tamagochiban works, but only for a while. then it need some random debugging, after which it works again for a while.
<kristianpaul>
i see why wolfgang likes google now :p
<kristianpaul>
well, actually there are no other copyleft hardware projests (yet) around isnt.. ;-)
<steve|m>
yes, "commercial copyleft"
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: hmmm ... Anarctica ... in spanish, the "h" of the greek-transliterated "ch" tends to get dropped. so is this an anarchist's utopia ?