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<zdaniel>
Hey guys. I'm struggling to understand meta-programming. I'm a fairly experienced professional developer, but I think something about the architecture is escaping me. I'm reading the article here -> http://ruby-metaprogramming.rubylearning.com/html/seeingMetaclassesClearly.html . There is a turning point in this article that started my confusion. In the section called 'Do Objects Need Metaclasses?', he
<zdaniel>
says 'Objects can't hold methods. Most objects don't need to hold methods.'. What does he mean? In what way can objects not hold methods?
<centrx>
zdaniel, I think it means objects (instances) can't directly have methods. Methods are defined in the class.
<centrx>
zdaniel, yet Ruby allows instances to have methods attached to them at runtime
<centrx>
zdaniel, Thus, meta-classes
<centrx>
I'm not familiar with the underlying implementation/specifics
<zdaniel>
I think I'm getting there. So, an instantiated object can have methods, which are given to it by the class definition.
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<zdaniel>
I'm just trying to find the distinction between that and saying objects can't hold methods.
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<centrx>
Someone in #ruby might know more about it
<zdaniel>
I'll check it out :D
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<surrounder>
Guest52388: one questionmark is enough
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<apeiros>
na, some people need to emphasize that their sentence is really really really a question. people might not figure from a mere single question mark.
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<bradland>
it's like when my wife asks me to do something
<bradland>
once is not enough (obvs)
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<red_menace>
thanks for that link - atom looks pretty good... (that is supposed to be an ellipse)
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<apeiros>
wtf? gem search '^rack$':
<apeiros>
Rack (2.0.0)
<apeiros>
rack (1.6.0)
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<igalic>
apeiros: wow, that's sad.
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<ericwood>
oh goodness
<apeiros>
igalic: yeah. seems like that gabrielg is quite a dickhead.
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<igalic>
maybe we should contact someone from the rubygems team and ask for Rack's removal.
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<lapide_viridi>
Does anyone by change know how to set the format of the MakeInstant method in MIT AppInventor 2 to hh:mm:ss? Sorry, for the off topic, but I'm desperate to find someone.
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<centrx>
lapide_viridi, does this method have any docs online?
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<lapide_viridi>
centrx, not as good as they should be.
<lapide_viridi>
Also, no communtiy, so I'm stranded.
<centrx>
yeah it seems like it only supports one format
<centrx>
or two formats if you count being able to leave off the seconds
<lapide_viridi>
There doesn't seem to be a way to specify this. I'm working with a textbox containing hh:mm:ss as an argument.
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<centrx>
lapide_viridi, Generally with dates and times, they are fully specified with the month/day/year
<centrx>
lapide_viridi, So you could add text for today's date for example
<centrx>
lapide_viridi, Or you could handle it differently, not as a date but as separate hour, minute, second numbers
<lapide_viridi>
I think I'll have to create a own method of converting it from milliseconds to hh:mm:ss. What a drag.
<lapide_viridi>
Or return to Action Script, although I'd rather not.
<lapide_viridi>
Thanks for the advice, though.
<centrx>
Sounds like you might be ready to learn Ruby!
<lapide_viridi>
I already do, but as far as I know, making Android apps with QR code would be problematic.
<lapide_viridi>
Please correct me!
<centrx>
oh good point
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<lapide_viridi>
Balls.
<centrx>
There are some tools to put Ruby apps on Android, but native is better
<centrx>
(RubyMotion)
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<red_menace>
RubyMotion compiles down to native...
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<lapide_viridi>
That looks cool.
<lapide_viridi>
However, does that make me able to take QR codes and send them to a server with MySQL?
<|jemc|>
lapide_viridi: sounds like a job for Qt/QML
<lapide_viridi>
Also, I'd have to make a GUI.
<lapide_viridi>
|jemc|, gonna look it up.
<lapide_viridi>
Perhaps I'll just try to survive AppInventor, or try ActionScript.
<|jemc|>
lapide_viridi: Qt is a framework for cross-platform apps, usually involving a GUI
<lapide_viridi>
And that works with Ruby?
<|jemc|>
heh, nope
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<|jemc|>
but none of the ruby options on android/ios are really that spectacular, IMO
<|jemc|>
QML is an easy-to-approach declarative scripting language that is a superset of javascript that Qt developed for UI programming
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<|jemc|>
it runs inside your Qt app
<red_menace>
the RubyMotion community doesn't have many Android libraries yet, so you would need to roll your own
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<|jemc|>
if you need help with Qt/QML, try the #qt and #qt-quick channels
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<lapide_viridi>
I think I have to stick to AppInventor, due to a time limit. Thanks for the advice though.
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<kl>
what is ruby's scoping strategy?
<kl>
i.e. it's not lexical (so what is it)?
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<apeiros>
kl cross posts.
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<kl>
Sorry, should have added that. Atypical for me - I just don't anticipate an answer quickly (and it'll be short anyway).
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<|jemc|>
kl: it depends on what kind of identifier you're talking about
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<kl>
|jemc|: which kinds of identifier are you distinguishing between? I'm considering all cases - in the case immediately affecting me, I'm thinking method definitions
<kl>
(Quite possibly different to say, variables - which I'd also like to understand the scoping of a little better)
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<|jemc|>
kl: methods are looked up in the class/module hierarchy of the current receiver
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<kl>
|jemc|: gotcha. I was testing method definitions inside of procs, but I guess the proc-block around it is completely ignored
<|jemc|>
with the implicit receiver being 'self' if no other is specified
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<|jemc|>
kl: if you want to define a method on an arbitray receiver, unknown until runtime, check out define_method and define_singleton_method
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<|jemc|>
kl: if you want to add a Module into an object's method lookup hierarchy at runtime, check out extend
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<|jemc|>
one of those two strategies will probably give you what you're trying to do - putting a method def inside a Proc/block is not idiomatic and likely won't do what you hope
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<kl>
|jemc|: I have a bunch of content in my Proc - I was looking to factor it out into multiple methods: that was why I wanted (initially) defs in my Procs
<|jemc|>
kl: well you can always nest Procs and they'll behave as you expect, but you may be on your way to something not very idiomatic
<|jemc|>
why a Proc?
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<kl>
|jemc|: was looking at how i can use them as strategies, i.e using #call rather than creating a class with #execute
<Rayford>
Anyone know of a good SLA Tracking framework or mini web app?
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<|jemc|>
kl: if the behavior of your Proc is that complex, I'd suggest at least putting that behavior in an object or in methods of an object and wrapping that in the proc
<kl>
|jemc|: I was looking at using procs to avoid the need of creating a class
<kl>
|jemc|: which is perfect if the code needed in the proc is small. i was then wondering how to scale it if the code increases in size/complexity
<kl>
|jemc|: i guess the only approach to factor growing code into smaller units, given ruby's method scoping, is creating an entire class to replace it, with a #call
<yorickpeterse>
actually, I wonder if you could get Ruby to run Perl code
<yorickpeterse>
without actually having to parse it
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<ljarvis>
wat
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<bradland>
as in perl code that is also valid ruby code?
<bradland>
or, slurp perl, do just enough munging to eval it, then eval?
<ljarvis>
sometimes i think it must have taken so much time to add this weirdness. I'm working on a language and im finding it hard to add normal features
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<yorickpeterse>
bradland: the former
<bradland>
that would be a fun exercise
<yorickpeterse>
Though getting `my $foo = 10` to work is tricky
<yorickpeterse>
(if you want it as a local variable that is)
<ljarvis>
how is it?
<ljarvis>
ah
<ljarvis>
:<
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<yorickpeterse>
otherwise `my` is just a noop
<ljarvis>
well yeah
<ljarvis>
define as local, undefine the global
<bradland>
i know just enough perl to be frustrated with munin
<bradland>
which is to say, roughly none
<yorickpeterse>
but fear not for we'll have Perl 6 this year
<ljarvis>
i write quite a bit of perl and still really enjoy it
<yorickpeterse>
our lord and saviour Larry Wall finally finished it after...15 years?
<ljarvis>
but fuck perl 6
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<yorickpeterse>
Look at it from the bright side: with Perl 6 out Javascript will no longer be the sole language ridiculed by many
<yorickpeterse>
though at least JS' syntax is ok-ish
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<ljarvis>
you're forgetting php obviously
<yorickpeterse>
Correct, I'm trying to forget ever having written that as a job
<yorickpeterse>
ha, some of the code still runs
<bradland>
php is basically the antagonist in The Village
<yorickpeterse>
I once wrote a domain/DNS management app for my previous employer
<yorickpeterse>
stuff is apparently still running
<yorickpeterse>
using the same CSS too
<bradland>
"those of whom we do not speak"
<yorickpeterse>
haha, it even has my author details in the CSS
<yorickpeterse>
"@since 17-06-2011"
<yorickpeterse>
dayum
<yorickpeterse>
almost 5 years
<yorickpeterse>
err
<yorickpeterse>
4
<ljarvis>
wow
<ljarvis>
last time i touched php was at least 7 years ago
<yorickpeterse>
hihi, still rocking Mootools 1.4 too
<yorickpeterse>
god I loved Mootools back then
<yorickpeterse>
but yeah
<yorickpeterse>
PHP
<yorickpeterse>
ugh
<ljarvis>
my brain is melting writing this parser
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* whitequark
slaps apeiros around a bit with a large trout
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<ljarvis>
a trout slap, never gets old
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<yorickpeterse>
I remember once doing financing stuff in PHP
<yorickpeterse>
and having this co-worker running 32bit windows
<yorickpeterse>
who had a problem with a timestamp in miliseconds overflowing or something
<yorickpeterse>
so their solution was to simply cast it as a string, then append "000"
<yorickpeterse>
not realizing it was casted to a float again later on
<yorickpeterse>
errr int
<yorickpeterse>
or w/e it was
<apeiros>
whitequark: why meeeee?!?
<apeiros>
I didn't ask for moar syntax!
<yorickpeterse>
brrrr financing in PHP
<yorickpeterse>
Not sure if Ruby is better, but at least it has bignums
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<ljarvis>
php has bignums
<ljarvis>
also known as strings
<ljarvis>
tehe
<bradland>
financing period
<yorickpeterse>
However, when designing a language PHP is worth studying
<yorickpeterse>
So one knows exactly what _not_ to do
<bradland>
i wonder how many times someone has implemented (or failed to) a zero balance ledger in any given language
<yorickpeterse>
but there's no such thing as fractions of cents
<yorickpeterse>
the minimum is always 1 cent!
<yorickpeterse>
wait why does Billy now have a balance of 0,00000000000003
<bradland>
built a rails app once back in the 1.x days that needed some payment tracking. we didn't bother to implement a core ledger.
<bradland>
just stuffed everything in to some has_many object belonging to users
<bradland>
what a mistake
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<bradland>
at least we didn't use float :P
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<kl>
yorickpeterse: my favorite design approach used in PHP was naming functions randomly in a way to generate greater variance in their hashcode representations
<kl>
Who needs a consistent language when you can have slightly optimised hashtable lookups for function calls
<centrx>
wow is that the reason
<tobiasvl>
crazy
<apeiros>
the hash function used to be the length of the function afaik
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<bitflipping>
anyone know how to set windows library/include paths for ruby devkit to look in? I've copied headers/libs into the devkit/mingw respective folders but its still coming up with bunk
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<bnagy>
afaik they just have to be in path
<bnagy>
but I quit using c extensions on Windows
<bitflipping>
you mean for the headers/dlls a native extension would need to compile?
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<bitflipping>
drop em in the folder I'm in and it should work?
<bnagy>
well they have to be in path, as I said
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<bnagy>
I guess . should work...
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<bnagy>
it's all mixed up because it has to be in what mingw or whatever thinks is your path, not just windows
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<bitflipping>
right
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<bnagy>
imho see if there's any way you can avoid using a cext ;)
<bitflipping>
so I've got native extensions working in a dedicated msys2 setup
<bnagy>
sounds dreamy so far
<bitflipping>
but I can't get the ocra exe exporter working there, so I downloaded the ruby oneclick installer and devkit
<bitflipping>
and now I can't get my application's extension to compile with devkit haha
<bnagy>
wait, it gets better!
<bitflipping>
haha
<bnagy>
ocra is the lunatic fringe of ruby on windows, which is the lunatic fringe of ruby
<bitflipping>
I know, but I need it so I can run an exe through gdebugger, and figure out why the ruby gl calls are triggering an error TT____TT
<bnagy>
why not just use a different debugger?
<bnagy>
like, you can just debug your ruby process
<bitflipping>
well in this case I need a debugger that works on opengl calls
<bitflipping>
and I guess I was blinded by gdebugger just running, couldn't before
<bitflipping>
I should probably try apitrace, that would probably even work in msys haha
<bitflipping>
a whole weekend spent on one erroneous pathway lol
<bnagy>
k well personally I just do everything natively
<bnagy>
well.. or in jruby, because the java tools are pretty awesome
<bitflipping>
not sure what you mean by that sorry
<bnagy>
I mean I just work on the windows view of the binaries with windows tools
<bnagy>
and avoid msys except where absolutely neccessary to run gcc
<bitflipping>
got it, I'm pretty used to my linux environment, so I was very happy coming across msys2 haha
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<bitflipping>
oohuhuhuhu
* bitflipping
just delights in seeing text progress bars and not having menus cluttering windows
* bitflipping
basks in simple backgrounding of processes and piping of commands together
<bitflipping>
:)
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<bradland>
bitflipping: is the project you're working on going to be OSS?
<bradland>
all this fiddle/opengl talk has me on the edge of my seat :)
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<bitflipping>
haha, I've made a pull request to nilium/opengl-core for the changes I've made, I've to still find a way to debug these opengl errors I'm getting, which is what I've been working on yesterday and today
<bitflipping>
I'm also pretty bad at this, so there are more questions than progress happening haha
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<bradland>
bitflipping: haha, you're basically following my model.
<bradland>
let me know if you need someone to run tests on Windoze. i'm not afraid to fire up a VM.
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<bradland>
although i'm not sure how valid test cases are running opengl in a vm O_o