apeiros changed the topic of #ruby to: Ruby 2.1.5; 2.0.0-p598; 1.9.3-p551: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || this channel is logged at http://irclog.whitequark.org, other public logging is prohibited
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<havenwood> tejas-manohar: have you looked at the methods the object responds to in Pry? or looked at the gem's code?
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<pcflmb> hey all, I'm using capistrano for deploying
<pcflmb> it's worker for a few months just fine
<tejas-manohar> havenwood: yeah i cant find a way to see all properties on it
<pcflmb> I recently switched to fish shell
<pcflmb> and now it fails
<havenwood> pcflmb: you might want to ask in #capistrano
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<pcflmb> ah great, didn't know if there was a specific channel
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<pcflmb> thanks havenwood
<tejas-manohar> havenwood: i also dont see the body property anywhere
<havenwood> tejas-manohar: did you use the `ls` command in Pry?
<tejas-manohar> havenwood: no lemme look into that
<havenwood> tejas-manohar: the method you're looking for isn't #body, but you should recognize the one :)
<tejas-manohar> havenwood; when youre looking through the code how do you start
<tejas-manohar> havenwood: i wanna find it in the source now :)
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<havenwood> tejas-manohar: so first off, in the lib/ directory
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL> 1 month pull request, I feel cool :O
<tejas-manohar> yes
<tejas-manohar> of course
<havenwood> tejas-manohar: then you have a Gmail::Message, so lib/gmail/message.rb
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<tejas-manohar> message?
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<tejas-manohar> havenwood: message method?
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<havenwood> tejas-manohar: yeah, give that a try
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<tejas-manohar> yupppp
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<tejas-manohar> yay thanks dude
<tejas-manohar> i'll look like this next time
<havenwood> you're welcome
<tejas-manohar> ls command looks useful
<tejas-manohar> nice
<havenwood> it sure is
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<shevy> \o/
<shevy> we profit!
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<shevy> my favourite variable name is _
<shevy> and my favourite method name is []
<shevy> do you guys think that makes me weird?
<wallerdev> nah
<wallerdev> [] is a fun one
<wallerdev> the weirdest thing is that you put a u in favorite
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<shevy> hehe
<shevy> we were taught monty python english in school!
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<Ionian> Hi
<Ionian> Im having a very noob problem
<Ionian> since ima a noob
<Ionian> when the input is !say
<Ionian> puts Hello doesnt show up
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<agent_white> Ionian: Line 5
<agent_white> Ionian: Is the input "say" or "!say" ?
<Ionian> well
<Ionian> for example
<Ionian> !say says hello
<Ionian> idk im confused
<agent_white> Ionian: Are you sure?
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<Ionian> coming from JS, im trying to make it as familar as possible
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<Ionian> wait
<Ionian> is Ruby indentation sensitive?
<agent_white> :)
<agent_white> nope
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<agent_white> Ionian: Again, does sending that code "!say" really print "hello" ?
<agent_white> Copy and paste it into irb and try it out.
<Ionian> well
<Ionian> id input .index ! at 0
<Ionian> and say
<Ionian> is
<Ionian> IDK
<Ionian> im ocnfused right
<agent_white> Ionian: When you're running your case statement... the case you're checking is still "!say"
<Ionian> ! is a command initiator
<agent_white> So when you say "when 'say'" ... it shouldn't pass since you sent in "!say"
<Ionian> oh so the if statment is useless?
<agent_white> nopenope!
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<agent_white> Ionian: Change line 5 from `when "say"` to `when "!say"`
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<agent_white> ;)
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<Ionian> Then the if statemnt is useless
<agent_white> Nope it isn't.
<agent_white> I mean...
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<agent_white> Ionian: It's not useless in that it does need to check to see if there is a "!" being sent.
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<Ionian> agent_white, doing "!say" says hello, but dnoig "!say lol" doesnt say hello
<Ionian> How can i fix?
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<agent_white> Ionian: tldr; You're on the right track, just include "!" in each case statement check.
<agent_white> Ionian: Update your gist with the code you have now
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<Ionian> updated
<agent_white> Ionian: Put that if statement back in! -- Like I said, it's worth having.
<agent_white> Also make that case statement valid.
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<Ionian> I will later, but its not my priority rn
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<Ionian> agent_white ?
<agent_white> Ionian: Typing out a little method for you :)
<Ionian> ak ok thx
<agent_white> Ionian: Here... if you want to send in a cmd with parameters
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<agent_white> >> str = "!say some thing here"; cmd, *args = str.split; puts "command: #{cmd} -- arguments: #{args}"
<eval-in__> agent_white => command: !say -- arguments: ["some", "thing", "here"] ... (https://eval.in/234163)
<shevy> if you have an array like array = %w( abc def ghi ), how can you obtain all elements that match to 'ef', and also obtain the index?
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<ehc> I'm using rbenv and bundler to install gems into a .gems/ dir. I'm wondering if it's recommended to add the .gems to my gitignore or keep in the repo. Are the gems in .gems being compiled in any system specific way (don't add to git) or just specific to the ruby version (then add to git)?
<shevy> hmm I'll just use .find_index
<Ionian> agent_white, Where would I put this?
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<agent_white> shevy: array.select{ |e| e.include?("ef") ? (p arr.index(ele) : (p "NOPES) }
<agent_white> ^ ?
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<agent_white> Ionian: At the very top
<shevy> hmm
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<agent_white> arr.select { |ele| ele.include?("ef") ? [ele, arr.index(ele)] : next }
<agent_white> iono why it's not returning that array doe
<shevy> your code truly scares me
<agent_white> :D
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<agent_white> shevy: EVEN BETTER!
<agent_white> arr.collect { |ele| ele.include?("ef") ? [ele, arr.index(ele)] : next }.compact
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<shevy> it scares me
<shevy> it's right from the Matrix
<shevy> it transforms people
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<josh_> exit
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<agent_white> shevy: I know, I shouldn't go back :(
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<quazimodo> anyone know how to write to the master of a PTY and not have it show up in the read of master?
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<quazimodo> eg if my subprocess's stdin/out are set to slave from master, slave = PTY.open, and I write to master from my parent process, then it is output from slave into the child process. But that same input shows up when I read from master
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<quazimodo> just like I'd see it in a regular terminal
<quazimodo> any way to disable that (kind of similar to when you type in a password and you don't see it echo'd back)
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<Ionian> agent_white, im confused a bit :S
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<agent_white> Ionian: Hm?
<Ionian> Idk how I can integrate your snippet into my code correctly
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<Ionian> im a noob
<Ionian> a 2day noob
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<shevy> 2 days
<shevy> you are learning
<shevy> you will get better
<shevy> look back when you are at day 10
<Ionian> I know
<Ionian> Im just confused on this part :S
<agent_white> Ionian: Paste your code again, and explain which part you are confused about!
<Ionian> agent_white, its the same, I just dont how to integrate your code with mine
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<shevy> yeah agent_white's code is kinda alien
<shevy> he is not of this world
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<agent_white> Ionian: So first things first, you read in the string. Right?
<agent_white> \o/
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<agent_white> Agent white calling from planet earth!
<Ionian> calling to*
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<agent_white> ;D
<pipework> agent_white: you should have made it do something like `next unless <condition>\n the_rest_here`
<Ionian> Yes
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<Ionian> agent_white
<pipework> And do select instead of collec+compact
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<agent_white> pipework: Ahhh! Rad thank you for the correction :D
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<agent_white> Ionian: So lets assume the input you read in was "!say some string to say"
<pipework> >> %w|ef no effer|; |arr.select { |i| next unless i.include?("ef"); [i, arr.index(i)]}
<eval-in__> pipework => /tmp/execpad-9096cba411e9/source-9096cba411e9:2: syntax error, unexpected '|', expecting keyword_end ... (https://eval.in/234164)
<pipework> oh oops
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<Ionian> yes agent_white
<pipework> >> %w|ef no effer|; arr.select { |i| next unless i.include?("ef"); [i, arr.index(i)]}
<eval-in__> pipework => undefined local variable or method `arr' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234165)
<pipework> >> %w|ef no effer|.select { |i| next unless i.include?("ef"); [i, arr.index(i)]}
<eval-in__> pipework => undefined local variable or method `arr' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234166)
<pipework> goddamnit.
<pipework> Sorry
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<pipework> >> arr = %w|ef no effer|; arr.select { |i| next unless i.include?("ef"); [i, arr.index(i)]}
<eval-in__> pipework => ["ef", "effer"] (https://eval.in/234167)
<pipework> There, got it.
<agent_white> pipework: Ooo actually.. would there be a way to reference that array inside the block without declaring it?
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<pipework> agent_white: each_with_object
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<agent_white> pipework: Ahhh cool beans! Thanks!
<agent_white> Ionian: So that means we first need to split that string up into the command, and the command params.
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<Ionian> just split the command params actaully
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<pipework> >> %w|ef no effer|.each_with_object([]) {|i, arr| (arr << i if i.include?("ef"))}
<eval-in__> pipework => ["ef", "effer"] (https://eval.in/234168)
<apeiros_> `arr.select { |i| next unless i.include?("ef"); [i, arr.index(i)]}`, regarding `[i, arr.index(i)]` - you know that select only cares about truthiness, right? i.e. it's completely irrelevant that you return an array?
<pipework> apeiros_: correct
<agent_white> pipework: That looks much neater than my code haha
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<pipework> Yeah, just a little refactor.
<apeiros_> why not just
<agent_white> Ionian: Aye? -- Well do that first thing before checking the command in the case conditions.
<apeiros_> >> %w|ef no effer|.select { |e| e.include?("ef") }
<eval-in__> apeiros_ => ["ef", "effer"] (https://eval.in/234169)
<agent_white> apeiros_: Need to return the index as well
<apeiros_> aha. none of the above solutions did that.
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<pipework> agent_white: Oh.
<apeiros_> >> %w|ef no effer|.each_with_index.select { |e, i| e.include?("ef") }
<eval-in__> apeiros_ => [["ef", 0], ["effer", 2]] (https://eval.in/234170)
<Ionian> okay agent_white
<Ionian> mind doing a join.me with me?
<pipework> Yeah, each_with_index, good catch.
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<pipework> >> %w|ef no effer|.each_with_index.each_with_object([]) {|(i, index), arr| (arr << [i, index] if i.include?("ef"))}
<eval-in__> pipework => [["ef", 0], ["effer", 2]] (https://eval.in/234171)
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<pipework> Though select works fine, this allows you to change from just true/false to actually being able to manipulate what you get back in teh array.
<apeiros_> >> result = []; %w|ef no effer|.each_with_index { |e, i| result << [e, i] if e.include?("ef") }
<eval-in__> apeiros_ => ["ef", "no", "effer"] (https://eval.in/234172)
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<apeiros_> >> result = []; %w|ef no effer|.each_with_index { |e, i| result << [e, i] if e.include?("ef") }; result # just to be clear that you get the right result
<eval-in__> apeiros_ => [["ef", 0], ["effer", 2]] (https://eval.in/234173)
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<pipework> apeiros_: I like mine better without the need to declare the array outside.
<apeiros_> good. we have different preferences. I find mine less convoluted.
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<pipework> Yeah we do. I like mine not modifying variables out of scope of the block. Definitely preference.
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<rotti_love> ruby makes me happy
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<shevy> better than sex
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> How can I convert 8 bits to an ASCII char?
<postmodern> .chr ?
<abs{CrazyM4n}> 8 bits, specifically
<apeiros_> abs{CrazyM4n}: in what form do you have 8 bits?
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> I have 8 values representing bits
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> Ones and zeroes
<apeiros_> an array of integers?
<abs{CrazyM4n}> Yes
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> They are all ones and zeroes, specifically
<apeiros_> you can go via join + pack
<apeiros_> or use math
<abs{CrazyM4n}> I saw pack, but I didn't really get how it worked
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<apeiros_> >> ["01100001"].pack("B*")
<eval-in__> apeiros_ => "a" (https://eval.in/234179)
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> >> ["01100001"].pack("b*")
<eval-in__> abs{CrazyM4n} => "\x86" (https://eval.in/234180)
<abs{CrazyM4n}> Okay, that makes sense
<abs{CrazyM4n}> Thanks
<apeiros_> yw
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> What's the difference between B and b in pack exactly?
<abs{CrazyM4n}> They go opposite directions but which direction is which?
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> At least that's what I think they do
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<apeiros_> yes, different endianness
<apeiros_> ri Array#pack has all details
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<tarek__> hi all , rails or codeigniter for developer with .net experience
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<apeiros_> B has most significant bit first
<apeiros_> (which is how normal people write numbers)
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> I guess I'll use B then
<abs{CrazyM4n}> I get it
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> What's a good way to "add" two strings together? I have 2 strings, "00000000" and say, "1010"
<abs{CrazyM4n}> How could I turn that to "00001010"?
<abs{CrazyM4n}> Actually, that's really easy
<abs{CrazyM4n}> I was just overthinking it :P
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<pawprint> how can i see a list of all the gems that would be installed if i did a "gem install foo" (without actually installing it) ?
<pawprint> nevermind.. i think i got it: "gem install --explain foo"
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<tarek__> you can use : "gem query --local"
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<jenrzzz> would you guys buy unauthorized ruby core team action figures?
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<pipework> jenrzzz: Only if the core team authorized them and got a royalty.
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<gee_totes> how would i extract a relative url from a full url? i.e. get "/foo?bar=bas" from "http://www.example.com/foo?bar=bas"
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<zenspider> action. figures.
<zenspider> action... for a bunch of nerds...
<pipework> zenspider: "Hyper typing attack!"
<zenspider> exactly
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<pipework> "git revert kick!"
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<havenwood> >> require "pathname"; Pathname("http://www.example.com/foo?bar=bas").basename.to_s
<eval-in__> havenwood => "foo?bar=bas" (https://eval.in/234185)
<eval-in__> havenwood => "foo?bar=bas" (https://eval.in/234186)
<havenwood> gee, oh gee_totes left i guess..
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<havenwood> the rare downside of not watching join/leaves
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<pawprint> when i try "puppet module generate foo"
<pawprint> it tells me "Error: Could not generate directory "foo", you must specify a dash-separated username and module name."
<pawprint> i don't understand.. why can't i name my module "foo"?
<pawprint> and what's that about a username?
<pawprint> oops
<pawprint> wrong channel, sorry
<pawprint> :P
<pipework> >> foo = Module.new { def self.hi; :hi; end }; foo.hi
<eval-in__> pipework => :hi (https://eval.in/234187)
<pipework> pawprint: Works here.
<pawprint> pipework: you typed the literal string "foo"? without a dash? and it worked?
<pipework> pawprint: You saw exactly what I typed above.
<pipework> Also, I don't know anything about puppet.
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<pawprint> oh
<pawprint> ok
<pawprint> thanks
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<shevy> does one of you know of a ruby gem that converts a given case/when menu into a ruby hash?
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<shevy> like ... case x; when 'a','b'; 'bla' -> {'a' => 'bla', 'b' => 'bla' }
<shevy> all string entries there
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<pontiki> hi, folks
<pontiki> why would a gem do that?
<pontiki> seems like an editor macro would be the thing to use
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<hightower4> Hey, if I have def x arg= {}, how do I pass parameters like ( :a => 1, :b => 2, c ) to it, where "c" is a complete hash? Just saying "c" tells me "=>" is expected, and if I use *c I also get error
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<pipework> hightower4: You can't pass c like that, you specified one arg.
<pipework> You either need to decide if you want to merge c into the first hash, make it a second optional or required arg, or make it so that your method globs args.
<pipework> Maybe it globs all, or it globs after the optional first hash.
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<hightower4> Oh right, a glob would do, thanks
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> Does Array#choose use the seed set by Random#srand ?
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<hightower4> pipework, I still get error though. If I have def x *arg , and I call x( :a => 1, :b => 2, c), I get error on both "c" and *C
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<pipework> hightower4: You'll have to put this into a nicer form.
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<pipework> >> def some_method(*args); args end; some_method({}, {})
<eval-in__> pipework => [{}, {}] (https://eval.in/234193)
<abs{CrazyM4n}> Er, not choose
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> Array#sample, I meant
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<abs{CrazyM4n}> Or should I just use Random.new
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<hightower4> pipework, thanks, got it working by merging things into 'c'
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<hightower4> Then having function defined as def x arg= {} and just calling x( c)
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<pipework> It's a method, but yeah.
<pipework> I mean, I'd consider the merit of it being two hashes. If one is fine, then go with that.
<pipework> But sometimes there's value to two different hashes.
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<pontiki> hi folks
<havenwood> hi
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<epitron> ugh. rubygems is so weird. doing "require 'io/console'" loads every gemspec in my system
<epitron> io/console is a ruby stdlib, isn't it?
<epitron> i need a better language for commandline utilities
<epitron> ruby is ridiculous sometimes
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<pontiki> perl
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<epitron> noooo
<pontiki> hee
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<epitron> hmm
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<epitron> i have a weird problem, and i'm not sure how to frame it :)
<epitron> i've got a DSL, and it works by evalling a block on a Config class
<epitron> the DSL has blocks in it
<epitron> but those blocks themselves end up having "self" set to the Config class
<epitron> i want to run them in a different context
<epitron> different_context.instance_eval &block doesn't seem to do it
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<epitron> ok, weird hack involving setting a local in the scope imediately outside the DSL block it is!
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<Varun_Krishna> Hi guys I am trying to read the rss feed but I am getting errors https://gist.github.com/Varun-Krishna-P/346e3de1d456826d8ea8
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<arup_r> Is there any live UNIX freenode? #UNIX or #unix seems die
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<parabolize> Varun_Krishna: change the url to use https
<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: I have changed it but I get some other certificate failure error .
<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: Please check the comment in that gist
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<parabolize> huh, Its working here.
<Varun_Krishna> I have changed it to look like this url = 'https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/feeds/news.rss'
<parabolize> Varun_Krishna: can you see the rss with some other reader?
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<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: some other reader in the sense ?
<parabolize> like firefox
<parabolize> maybe it has nothing to do with ruby
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<Varun_Krishna> But when I go to that link I am seeing the feeds.
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<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: What could have been the problem with my code ?
<Varun_Krishna> is the code here is not correct ? http://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-1.9.3/libdoc/rss/rdoc/RSS.html
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<parabolize> no, its not. It does fail without the sub s/http/https
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<parabolize> somebody else was having a similar problem a week ago and I can't remember the solution.
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<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: Oh ok. I guess that I am not luckier enough :)
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<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: BTW I am using windows.
<parabolize> can you try the same script with ruby version 2.1.5
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<Varun_Krishna> parabolize: Ok I will install it and let you know.
<zacts> hi rubyists
<pontiki> hi zacts
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<pontiki> Varun_Krishna: i suggest reading: http://notetoself.vrensk.com/2008/09/verified-https-in-ruby/
<Varun_Krishna> pontiki: You are here too ?
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<Varun_Krishna> pontiki: Thanks for the link.
<pontiki> of course
<green-big-frog> good morning
<pontiki> hallo
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<agent_white> pontiki: \o
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<benzrf> who pingt me
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<hightower4> Hey, I would like to define "class X::Y::Z", but the problem is that "X::Y" is not defined at that point (and defining "X::Y::Z" does not implicitly define "X::Y"), so I get an error. How would I most conveniently create "X::Y" as a dummy/placeholder?
<arup_r> shevy: You there ?
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<hightower4> I was thinking of simply saying class X::Y; end , but I cannot do that because X::Y can be defined in some scenarios, and it inherits from some other classes so I get a mismatch between "Class X::Y" and "Class X::Y < A" used elsewhere
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<hightower4> Hm, actually class X::Y; class Z; end; end worked, if class X::Y < A was seen before that. Ok, all good.
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<agent_white> Why can I save `eval("p 'hello'")` into a variable but not `print` or `puts` ?
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<agent_white> something something `.inspect` ...
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<agent_white> >> %w(a b c)
<eval-in__> agent_white => ["a", "b", "c"] (https://eval.in/234275)
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<agent_white> >> p "hello"; puts "hai"
<eval-in__> agent_white => "hello" ... (https://eval.in/234276)
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<agent_white> >> `echo hai`
<eval-in__> agent_white => (https://eval.in/234278)
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<agent_white> >> x = 5; y = 2
<eval-in__> agent_white => 2 (https://eval.in/234279)
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<agent_white> >> DATA.rewind; puts DATA.readlines; __END__
<eval-in__> agent_white => uninitialized constant DATA (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234280)
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<agent_white> >> DATA.rewind; puts DATA.readlines; __END__; Things here!;
<eval-in__> agent_white => uninitialized constant DATA (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234281)
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<agent_white> >> DATA.rewind; puts DATA.readlines; __END__; `echo "hello"`
<eval-in__> agent_white => uninitialized constant DATA (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234282)
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<agent_white> Hm
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<agent_white> >> p $SAFE
<eval-in__> agent_white => 0 ... (https://eval.in/234313)
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<agent_white> Odd.
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<shevy> dumdedum
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<shevy> didn't I tell about real OOP programming here not long ago
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<DaniG2k> is there a way to set the same local variable (eg. time_zone_now) across multiple methods?
<DaniG2k> without always having to specify time_zone_now = Time.zone.now ?
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<DaniG2k> kind of like a before_action
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<claf> DaniG2k: Time.zone.now
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<DaniG2k> claf: that makes three method calls
<DaniG2k> claf: I am thinking it might be useful to store that somewhere
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<DaniG2k> instead of calling it constantly
<claf> are you trolling?
<DaniG2k> @_@ no
<claf> you should be writing code
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<claf> instead of optimizing things that need no optimization
<DaniG2k> ?
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<bartj3> could anyone take a look at 4 lines of code for me? It does what it needs to do, but i feel like there should be a cleaner "ruby way" to do this. https://gist.github.com/bartj3/3015081d98adcb1ae042
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<claf> bartj3: ok
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<claf> bartj3: the first row is unnecessary..
<claf> you could just write:
<DaniG2k> claf: by that line of thinking, the Phusion Passenger devs wouldn't have been able to speed up their web server by 5 times
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<claf> DaniG2k: you are solving a problem that does not exist, unlike Passenger devs
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<claf> DaniG2k: it is rather amusing
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<DaniG2k> glad you're amused
<claf> DaniG2k: your problem is like hamster wondering which of two carrots it is going to bite first, and you compare it to engineering a web server
<claf> DaniG2k: wake up from your dream, and start coding your solution instead of wasting (our) time
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<DaniG2k> claf: are you getting paid to answer me?
<claf> ok so you *are* trolling
<claf> stop it, or ban
<DaniG2k> if not then you are welcome to ignore
<claf> I think ban would be better...
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<claf> ...I have rather negative attitude towards trolling on this chan
<bartj3> hms for some reason i was expecting an unknown variable error, thx claf
<DaniG2k> you seem to have a negative attitude, full stop. Mine was a genuine question
<claf> bartj3: so, you could write that as oneliner
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<claf> bartj3: media_url = tweet.media.first.m_u.to_s if tweet.media
<claf> bartj3: but beware, is media_url going to contain values that have truthiness in a logical way
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<claf> bartj3: unless media? is a method that returns bool
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<claf> bart you could also use a ternary
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<claf> tm ? url = "foo" : nil
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<bartj3> media? returns a bool, it's working but surprised it's not raising a NameError
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<bartj3> `media_url = tweet.media.first.media_url.to_s if tweet.media?`, i expected the method failing when trying to use media_url later and it's not assigned
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<claf> note that backtick denotes a system command in ruby
<claf> (`)
<bartj3> ow the backtick is not there, used to talking about code in slack which supports markdown :)
<claf> yes, thought so
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<bartj3> but nice, learned a new thing today :D thanks!
<claf> even the original version is somehat clean to read
<claf> DaniG2k do you have actual problem setting, a pastie with code?
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<shevy> he couldn't take the criticism
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<apeiros_> claf: no need for the ad-hominem in your answer
<apeiros_> seems DaniG2k left anyway
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<shevy> to never return again
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<claf> perhaps so
<claf> I think he was here to argue a non-point
<apeiros_> he was asking a question, which from his point of view was both valid and genuine.
<claf> and, I had and answer, which was the same
<apeiros_> yes, and after which you should have stopped.
<claf> perhaps so
<claf> after all, my answer was clearly not of "right thinking"
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<claf> and did not result in Phusion Passenger devs winning
<claf> (even if I did help them test it)
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<claf> so, perhaps you guys will forgive me for my evil ways
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<shevy> your punishment is to collect positive karma in the next days
<shevy> by helping newcomers
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<apeiros_> he left too, shevy
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<aswen> Hi, I just learned the hard way that a ~ (tilde) is not expanded in a path used within Ruby because that more of a shell behavliour
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<aswen> can you guys please advice me how to achieve that I set a default path in a yaml file that can be expanded by ruby?
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<aswen> (i read some_path: '~/bla' from some yaml
<apeiros_> aswen: File.expand_path expands ~ for you
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<aswen> apeiros_: aha, so I have to do something like file_to_write = File.expand_path(path_from_yaml)?
<apeiros_> correct
<aswen> cool! thanx!
<apeiros_> you're welcome
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<aswen> Me and Ruby compares good to Bambi's first steps on ice ;-)
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<apeiros_> slow and steady?
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<aswen> haha, no more the "falling, look stupid in the camera, and try again" part ;-)
<aswen> but! I just let Ruby write a file! Yay!
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<shevy> hmm if we have: module Foo; module Constants
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<shevy> and we modify other classes or modules residing in the module Foo namespace, and we need some of them to have the Constants... is it better to just do: include Constants, or do: include Foo::Constants ? both would seem to work, the latter appears more explicit
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<aswen> Hi, Is there a clever trick to test if I have enough (write) permissions in a directory?
<apeiros_> File.stat
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<apeiros_> or just do what you want to do and rescue the proper exception
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<aswen> apeiros_: thanks!
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<epitron> less reimplemented in pure ruby! https://github.com/epitron/scripts/blob/master/page
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<apeiros_> what was it implemented in before?
<waxjar> i wish less let me scroll :(
<aswen> *nix
<apeiros_> oh, wait, less the pager, not the css language?
<waxjar> i thought it was the css language at first too :p
<bradland> heh, funny how the way you’ll read that name depends on the hat you wear
<epitron> hahah
<icbm> less is more, but there's more in less
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<epitron> i was thinking of calling it "moar"
<epitron> moar is less!
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<sevenseacat> hah
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<apeiros_> epitron: congrats, btw.
<epitron> i'm also halfway to a simple curses library :)
<apeiros_> why did you rewrite it in ruby? giggles?
<epitron> keymap + scrollable regions ftw
<apeiros_> ooooh
<apeiros_> that'd be nice
<bradland> hrm, some features don’t appear to work for me
<bradland> pgup/pgdown, for example
<epitron> bradland: oh yeah, this is only tested on linux
<epitron> the escape sequences for certain keys differe between terminals
<epitron> i should port over the coolline keys
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<bradland> ah, ok
<epitron> apeiros_: i wrote it because less has this annoying bug where it becomes unresponsive if your input stream pauses without closing
<epitron> apeiros_: try piping the output of this to less and page: https://github.com/epitron/scripts/blob/master/anagram
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<apeiros_> waaay too lazy. and I have no reason to not believe what you said ;-)
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<icbm> curses is well-named. I hope your library captures the proper sense of frustration...
<epitron> icbm: hahah
<epitron> gem install f#$@-terminals
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<shevy> lol
<epitron> apeiros_: it actually shows off the neatest feature if you do that -- the real-time updating of the status bar :)
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<epitron> and tail-mode!
<epitron> (press t)
<bradland> epitron: are you handling Errno::EPIPE in the event that the input stream (for piped input) is terminated early?
<jhass> less has that too (press F)
<epitron> bradland: nope! :D
<epitron> jhass: mine is better :)
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<jhass> how's startup time?
<bradland> i usually wrap my run! invocation in a rescue block to handle Errno::EPIPE
<epitron> bradland: the program terminating doesn't seem to cause an issue
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<bradland> interesting
<epitron> does EPIPE only get raised if the input program returns an error?
<epitron> maybe it's that i'm using IO#each_line
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<epitron> that probably handles EPIPE
<bradland> ah, yeah
<epitron> also, i just noticed that pgup/dn are broken for me too :)
<epitron> i think i added a bug
<bradland> i usually use the ol’ ARGF.gets
<epitron> but.. how do you know when to stop getsing!
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<bradland> i never stop getsing! :)
<epitron> haha
<epitron> he can't gets enough!
<bradland> here’s a very old script that i help maintain
<bradland> it’s not terribly well structured
<bradland> the begin; rescue block isn’t very well structured
<bradland> this is how i do it now days
<bradland> hrm, that CSV analyzer script is a real piece of crap. don’t look too closely.
<epitron> exit 74!
<epitron> :D
<bradland> yeah, i tried to adhere to these: http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/exitcodes.html
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<epitron> bradland: oh, i got a question you might know the answer to
<epitron> when i "exit!" from ruby, the input pipe isn't exiting
<epitron> i have to ^C sometimes
<bradland> interesting, so you call exit and the sending application doesn’t see the process termination?
<bradland> have you checked to see if your ruby process actually disapears
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<epitron> oh i see what's happening
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<epitron> so, the sending program is "anagram sdfasfasdfjkah", which takes a long time to find the first word...
<epitron> it doesn't get the EPIPE signal from the pager until it outputs its first match
<bradland> ah, yeah
<bradland> so anagram is blocking
<bradland> not your ruby script
<epitron> yeah
<epitron> i need to sigkill it or something :)
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<epitron> i guess it's really ruby's fault
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<epitron> not handling the signal in a timely manner
<bradland> i’m not smart enough to write threaded applications, so i’m not of much use
<bradland> but it would seem that anagram needs threads
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<epitron> i feel like this is an IO issue
<epitron> it doesn't get the epipe signal until it writes to the IO
<epitron> shouldn't the EPIPE be immediate?
<epitron> no, no, sorry, i'm wrong
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<epitron> yeah, it needs to happen when you try to write to it
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<epitron> or there needs to be a special method that says "run this block with this IO until it closes, then terminate"
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<bradland> right
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<bradland> non-blocking
<bradland> there have to be plenty of patterns for that
<epitron> oh wait, so EPIPE isn't a signal?
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<bradland> jessie has written a couple of straight forward books on “unixy” ruby scripts that are *really* great
<epitron> nice :)
<bradland> he’s written on threading too
<bradland> i find his writing extremely accessible
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<bradland> i’m actually more of a business guy than a programmer, but i find programming incredibly important
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<bradland> and i do a lot of sysadmin work, because i found that it was easier to get programmers to do work for me if i did the crap work lol
<bradland> devs are more apt to talk to you if you can at least program your way through simple problems
<bradland> so, basically, if i can understand his books, anyone can :)
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<bradland> the pattern you use for your scripts seems pretty idiomatic though
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<epitron> ohh, i see the pgup/dn issue
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<epitron> it's just the refresh throttle
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<epitron> i need to force a redraw if i press a key
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<bradland> sent you a pull request for the anagram script
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<epitron> thanks!
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<epitron> heh.. i think one of the reasons curses has that name is that it's really hard to debug a terminal program that hijacks the terminal :)
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<epitron> i need a second terminal for debug output
<apeiros_> why? you can debug it from another session. no?
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<epitron> exactly
<epitron> what's a good way to do that, apeiros_?
<apeiros_> drb?
<apeiros_> (with ruby specifically, that is)
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<epitron> hmmm
<apeiros_> afaik you can hook into a running ruby script with gdb too
<epitron> i could make stderr redirect to tee :)
<epitron> or to a file
<epitron> just tail it
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<epitron> heh, this is awkward
<epitron> now i need a way to automatically redisplay the contents of debug.log whenever it gets recreated
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<epitron> i guess i can just append to it
<epitron> oh! tail -f tells you when the file gets truncated! :D
<epitron> nice
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<bradland> yeah, i try to stick to appending when logging
<bradland> std log formats TIMESTAMP LEVEL MSG
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<kj_> Hi guys I am new to ruby, I am done with basics and I want to furthur (advance ruby) any leads/links guys
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<shevy> kj_ write a gem that solves one task and only one task very well
<shevy> does not matter how simple it is
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<kj_> write a gem that solves one task and only one task very well ?
<shevy> yep
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<kj_> oh ohk
<shevy> you'll learn how to structure a ruby project properly
<shevy> you'll understand $LOAD_PATH too
<centrx> shevy needs an app to remind him when to go to the bathroom
<centrx> Get to work!
<shevy> I just got back from buying groceries!
<shevy> it's damn cold outside :(
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<apeiros_> I forgot how cheesy "outer limits" is (watching reruns)
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<Ionian> Hi
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<Ionian> I have this problem:
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<jhass> Ionian your three str's (very bad variable name), are three entirely different str's
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<Ionian> jahss, how so?
<jhass> ruby local variables are local
<Ionian> oh
<jhass> use method arguments and return values to pass data around
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<Ionian> so delcare it outside of the function?
<Ionian> idk what that is
<jhass> def foo argument; "this is the return value"; end; return_value = foo "this is the argument"
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<Ionian> so
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<Ionian> how does that solve my problem :S
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<jhass> through application
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<shevy> Ionian you don't need terminating ';' by the way
<jhass> or maybe you should read a basic ruby tutorial that teaches you methods, their arguments and their return values
<Ionian> sorry
<Ionian> JS habits
<jhass> nor empty ()
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<shevy> Ionian try this http://pastie.org/9778407
<jhass> nooooooo
<shevy> Ionian can you answer the question there? if yes then you have understood something
<jhass> he'll abuse those as globals shecy
<jhass> *shevy
<shevy> I don't think he abuses anything
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<Ionian> its test?
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<Ionian> no
<Ionian> its empty
<shevy> Ionian well, what is the "foo" there
<jhass> shevy: he didn't get local variable scope, method arguments or method return values yet
<Ionian> foo is test
<Ionian> @test is empty
<shevy> @test is initially an empty String
<jhass> shevy: don't teach him instance variables that he'll only use like globals in JS
<shevy> but what is foo?
<centrx> foo is moo
<Ionian> test
<shevy> why do you say test
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<Ionian> because
<Ionian> in the function foo
<jhass> method
<shevy> that was the answer
<Ionian> @test is being asigned to "test"
<shevy> nonono
<shevy> Ionian how do you make an assignment in ruby?
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<Ionian> =
<shevy> ok good
<shevy> do you see = in the method foo?
<Ionian> well
<Ionian> i assumed it was
<Ionian> idk what << does
<shevy> yea this is the problem
<shevy> your brain tries to outsmart you
<shevy> Ionian << is a method call
<Ionian> my brain is me
<shevy> you can remember it as "append something" usually
<shevy> >> string = ''; string << 'hello Ionian'; string
<eval-in__> shevy => "hello Ionian" (https://eval.in/234421)
<shevy> >> array = []; array << 'hello Ionian'; array
<eval-in__> shevy => ["hello Ionian"] (https://eval.in/234422)
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<Ionian> but i was right right?
<Ionian> foo returns test?
<shevy> Ionian ok and in this case we will append to an instance variable. Do you know what syntax denotes something as an instance variable in ruby?
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<shevy> don't trust your brain :)
<Ionian> @ ?
<shevy> yes
<jhass> shevy: ask him what an instance variable is
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<jhass> you assume he knows
<shevy> he correctly identified the token
<jhass> and how and when to use them
<shevy> I am perfectly happy with Ionian
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<shevy> he learned at least two things just now
<Ionian> :)
<shevy> << and @
<shevy> Ionian now jhass will teach you the rest ;)
<jhass> except that you teach him the exactly wrong way to solve his problem
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<Ionian> Guys
<shevy> ok we are listening now jhass
<Ionian> can we not fight
<kl> you two are like a mother and father that just can't agree on parenting
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<shevy> I demand a divorce!
<Ionian> nu pls dont
<shevy> k for the well-being of the child
<jhass> 18:19 <jhass> def foo argument; "this is the return value"; end; return_value = foo "this is the argument"
<shevy> but as soon as you are out of the house, we are done!
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<shevy> damn it ... you are on facebook jhass https://mbasic.facebook.com/ruby.jhass
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<jhass> lol
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<jhass> rest assured that isn't me ;)
<shevy> Ionian typically, ruby likes to use classes, and that's when an @instance_variable is usually used
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<Ionian> I c
<shevy> right now you write in a very procedural way with top-scope methods
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<jhass> so, or for the more classic example: def add(a, b); a+b; end; puts add(add(2, 3), 4)
<Ionian> I like protoypical ways of coding
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<shevy> once you transition into classes, storing data in @instance_variables will become much cleaner
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<Ionian> Yay
<Ionian> I fixed it :)
<jhass> Ionian: what will my last example print?
<jhass> Ionian: show
<shevy> where is the code
<Ionian> show my updated code?
<jhass> yes
<shevy> hehe
<shevy> I wonder if you stop using the trailing ';'
<Ionian> no :(
<Ionian> updated anyway
<shevy> :(
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<jhass> shevy: see what I mean
<jhass> exactly the wrong way
<shevy> it has gotten better
<jhass> I'm not sure
<Ionian> whats so wrong with it :S
<shevy> Ionian but those trailing ';' are empty
<jhass> global state
<shevy> erm
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<shevy> I mean *ugly
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<jhass> and still no correct behavior
<jhass> since you use <<
<Ionian> It works though
<shevy> btw do you need the lang variable?
<Ionian> Yes
<Ionian> I put it there for later once i work the str one
<shevy> hehehehehe
<shevy> for later :D
<jhass> Ionian: I can only repeat, use arguments
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<shevy> by the way, @str << ""
<jhass> it's the perfect example for using them
<jhass> even in JS
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<shevy> I don't think that is useful
<shevy> you essentially add nothing there
<shevy> yesterday I tried to use javascript
<shevy> building a firefox extension
<Ionian> Idk see what I did wrong
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<shevy> wrong where
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<shevy> you mean what jhass said?
<shevy> or the @str << "" part
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<Ionian> My def of wrong: Does not preform correctly and/or syntax error
<Ionian> there is nothing wrong with my def of wrong
<shevy> oh that is what jhass said
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<Ionian> anyway
<Ionian> I have this lil problem
<Ionian> for example if i say
<Ionian> !say hi
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<Ionian> it returns hi, but exits the program
<shevy> wat
<jhass> apply "loop"
<jhass> that'll also expose why the << is wrong
<shevy> it works through your program, then it stops. this is the behaviour that your current code does Ionian
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<Ionian> I know
<Ionian> How do I fix :C
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<jhass> 18:41 <jhass> apply "loop"
<shevy> well I am confused
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<shevy> Ionian programs will run then exit normally right?
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<Ionian> I guess
<shevy> I mean you have just two methods there
<Ionian> I know
<Ionian> I want it to be like a chatting fashion
<shevy> on line 28 you call it: read_command()
<shevy> k so you need user input
<jhass> I don't have the feeling you worked through a basic ruby tutorial yet
<jhass> do that
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<shevy> loop { user_input = gets.chomp; exit if user_input == 'q' }
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<Ionian> jhass, gimme a link pls
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<jhass> I'm not good at that :/
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<jhass> the style of the learncodethehardway stuff is nice, but then his ruby style is... not so nice
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<bradland> the hard way books are good for people that grok programming already
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<bradland> IMO, they don’t dwell long enough on the basics
<jhass> if money is an option, codeschool for video stuff, chris pine's learn to program for book
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<Ionian> Money isnt right now
<jhass> many do the codeacademy stuff
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<Ionian> Im 15 and my AP Java teacher will bitch if I pay for Ruby tuts
<arup_r> jhass: How are you ?
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<shevy> Ionian did you work through the chris pine tutorial yet?
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<Ionian> No, wats that
<jhass> arup_r: 'sup?
<shevy> when you worked through it, you can explain what yield is and what a block is
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<shevy> Ionian start here but don't skip something just because your brain tells you that it is boring https://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/chap_01.html - the whole thing will take less than 15-20 minutes
<arup_r> jhass: Good.. :) Nothing.. just asking how are you ?
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<Ionian> Thanks
<Ionian> and btw
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<Ionian> any outlook on big speed gains for ruby yet?
<jhass> arup_r: well, thanks
* wasamasa stares blankly at Ionian
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<Ionian> uhhh
<Ionian> I mean, there have been recent updates to its speed, but uhh
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<Ionian> wut?
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<wasamasa> Ionian: let's just say that ruby just wasn't built with speed in mind
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<Ionian> Oh I know that
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<shevy> speed gain
<shevy> if you want speed
<shevy> use C Ionian
<Ionian> B-but
<jhass> no, crystal! :P
<Ionian> I like Ruby :c
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<wasamasa> Ionian: you're being silly
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<shevy> you have more control in C
<wasamasa> Ionian: I mean, you're just asking without any clear intention for speed
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<shevy> and by the way, you can prototype in ruby and then write C
<wasamasa> Ionian: not a single mention of algorithms, data structures, etc.
<wasamasa> Ionian: or even what the program is supposed to do
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<shevy> he is not yet sure what his program is supposed to do either :-)
<Ionian> oh im sure
<centrx> Ruby is pretty fast now
<Ionian> Im making a chat bot with a friend
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<Ionian> orly? centrx?
<wasamasa> that doesn't sound like it's cpu-bound
<shevy> benzrf look, Oejet is using sage to prototype now before he goes into haskell:
<shevy> <Oejet> I do miss some things from Haskell, like Maybe, and a proper fold function.
<wasamasa> therefore, worry about other stuff
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<wasamasa> like writing reusable code
<Ionian> This is what I really mean
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<kl> Maybe is pretty awesome
<Ionian> if ruby was fast, you have its beautful syntax and speed
<wasamasa> neither ruby nor python were built with speed in mind
<kl> I'm not sure what his complaint about fold is, but it's probably valid
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<Ionian> well, why not now?
<wasamasa> in fact, they were built by single individuals who didn't know much about language design
<wasamasa> granted, the guy behind php did know nothing at all about it
<kl> It's funny, all the languages made by people who don't know much about programming languages, don't have static types
<wasamasa> wrong
<kl> gimme some of that lovely correction
<wasamasa> see scheme, J, etc.
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<wasamasa> Ionian: well, backwards compatibility
<kl> I don't think I worded that in a way to accurately express what I meant; perhaps a question:
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<kl> which languages have been made with static types, by people that don't know much about programming languages?
<wasamasa> Ionian: there've been good efforts at improving speed with alternative interpreters
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<wasamasa> kl: yes, you worded that the wrong way around
<kl> wasamasa: the sentiment I'm really expressing, is that, it seems as though expertise points towards using static types
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<wasamasa> kl: that could very well be
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<shevy> Ionian many things that exist in C don't exist in Ruby; for instance, how do you manipulate pointers in Ruby or gain access to the memory? where do you put compiled ruby code?
<Ionian> C is too low-level for me
<Ionian> Id rather leanr Go
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<shevy> I thought we are speaking about making ruby fast
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<Ionian> rubini.us
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<gandhi> rubinius is probably the slowest implementation out of em all right now
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<Ionian> rly?
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<Ionian> on its site it says
<kl> the best thing about Go is channels
<Ionian> runy FAST ruby code
<kl> it's a shame Ruby's agent gem which mimicks that concurrency abstraction appears unmaintained
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<Ionian> Go is a love or hate game
<kl> Ionian: for zealots, sure
<kl> there are pros and cons
<kl> A conceivable pro is that Go isn't very TIMTOWTDI. That lack of expressivity is simultaneously a conceivable con.
<epitron> the people who made rubinius weren't experienced VM engineers
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<epitron> that was their first VM for most of them
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<epitron> i bet if they were to redo it, it would be much faster
<kl> If speed is what you're *really* looking for, Ruby isn't really the language
<kl> There's only so much that Ruby, as a language, whichever the runtime, can be optimized
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<ponga> kl: is correct
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<ponga> i just love ruby and use it cos i work alone
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<ponga> I wouldn't want myself to code same stuff in language like java
<ponga> i'd get much less sleep then
<Ionian> I hate Java
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<ponga> who doesn't?
<gamzera_> hey guys
<kl> Java is a truly abysmal language
<gamzera_> rails new example -T
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<gamzera_> what does -T do?
<kl> Its existence is solely for economical reasons
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<ponga> i still believe(insist, more like) that java is only famous cos it got viral
<epitron> java: they couldn't decide whether to make it high level or low level \o/
<ponga> agreed kl
<epitron> let's do both!
<Ionian> Yeah
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<Ionian> Rails might not last longer than 10 years if its this slow
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<epitron> lol
<wasamasa> kl: java would be my best bet for a language with static types that sucks btw
<wasamasa> kl: go, too
<epitron> if the web is still around in 10 years, i'm going to become a sheppard
<ponga> replaced by node.js?
<ponga> well rails is very handy
<Ionian> ponga, or Go
<kl> wasamasa: agreed
<wasamasa> kl: but the people around it weren't as silly as the ruby and python authors, so...
<kl> I like Scala
<wasamasa> kl: I don't know really
<Ionian> IMO Meteor.js is better than Rails
<jhass> gamzera_: Please join #RubyOnRails for Rails questions. You need to be identified with NickServ, see /msg NickServ help
<epitron> ugh, javascript
<Ionian> I love JS
<kl> wasamasa: its close relationship to Java does make me feel a bit icky. Perhaps as I progress further with FP, I'll move closer to purity (aka further from JVM)
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<epitron> Ionian: stockholm syndrome
<ponga> but i still can't grasp this notion of 'rails is slow' , isn't twitter built on Rails????
<ponga> i think its still fine as long as its not super-enterprise scale
<wasamasa> kl: well, good luck
<epitron> twitter ditched rails for most of its functionality a long time ago
<Ionian> ponga, No, it uses a bit of Rails though
<ponga> oh ok
<Ionian> Twitter uses JVM
<ponga> so backend is like java
<ponga> there you go
<ponga> i saw that coming ser!
<epitron> hadoop, scala... cassandra?
<Ionian> LinkIn switched from Rails to JS
<epitron> they have a smorgasborg of technologies
<Ionian> and Paypal switched from JAVA to JS
<epitron> it's funny how crazily complex it is to run a really really big searchable log file :)
<epitron> (aka. twitter)
<Ionian> some sort of API was rewirtten from Ruby to Go
<Ionian> x50 faster
<kl> Twitter is Scala, primarily
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<kl> It abandoned Rails. Word is because it "wouldn't scale" - but I'd bet that's not to do with speed, and more for the fact that Rails is monolithic, and Scala has great microservice support
<epitron> brixen: orly
<ponga> wouldn't rails still keep the position of 'use rails to develop fast for first release and become viral then shift'
<brixen> gandhi: tell me something you want me to make faster in Rubinius
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<ponga> i don't think rails would just die
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<kl> ponga: it's that mentality that puts me off the Ruby job market, really. It's often used for prototyping crap. I want to make quality software
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<ponga> well indeed
<ponga> can't disagree more ser
<ponga> but it still holds its color
<gandhi> brixen, i donno, i havent used rubinius in a while
<kl> ponga: oh don't get me wrong. "Don't hate the player, hate the game". It's not Ruby's fault.
<kl> It's that mean old economy
<epitron> brixen: rubygems! :D
<ponga> actually ruby is the language i use most (all the time, really) to write the code i thought of or imagined
<epitron> rubygems initialization time still bugs me
<ponga> lack of need to write long grammar makes it easy
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<kl> ponga: agreed. Although I wonder at which point that becomes a false economy
<kl> ponga: when compared to a langauge that provides more compile-time safety, that is
<brixen> epitron: which part of rubygems?
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<gandhi> Kernel#require monkey patch
<gandhi> if that was faster everywhere id be happy :D
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<ponga> and i should really research go language now
<ponga> is it that good
<epitron> brixen: mostly the way it stats every directory on your filesystem and parses every gemspec in the system
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<brixen> gandhi: the key is to get rubygems out of runtime where it should never be in the first place
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<kl> ponga: it has a pretty massive cult following. You don't hear many people talk ill of it, except (for me), say: wasamasa and every #scala guy I met
<brixen> epitron: ok, will be fixed in rbx 2.5.0 :)
<epitron> hahah
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<epitron> ^5
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<brixen> I was actually working on it last weekend
<kl> ponga: and their judgements hold more weight for me than the people proclaiming how awesome it is
<epitron> nice!
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<wasamasa> kl: well, I just don't see the point in using it except if you're working for google
<wasamasa> kl: that's pretty much it
<shevy> :)
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<shevy> we all worship our master google
<ponga> kl: maybe its a matter of tendency, the false economy thing, that there are many substitute langs people 'tend' to use for serious enterprise stuffs
<gandhi> damn brb, mouse br0ke
<kl> wasamasa: I don't see employment status at google having any bearing on the matter
<epitron> actually, one thing that both rbx and julia (and other self-hosted languages) could use is a way to cache the initial kernel's memory image, so they can startup faster
<wasamasa> kl: the type system is about as good as the one of java, the error handling is c-like and the entire language screams "USE IT FOR THE SAKE OF TEAMWORK"
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<ponga> i don't really want to believe that ruby is not good enough of a language for serious work
<ponga> or is it?
<wasamasa> ponga: define "serious"
<shevy> ruby is too complex
<epitron> wasamasa: ROFLSCALE
<ponga> well, like enterprise project?
<kl> ponga: about 2 years ago, I was asking/saying that about Perl.
* wasamasa has never worked at enterprise scale
<wasamasa> ponga: try harder
<centrx> By enterprise do you mean "crap"
<ponga> and what answer did you find out kl
<ponga> wasamasa: non-indie
<kl> ponga: that I should have got out of Perl a long time before
<wasamasa> ponga: you're replacing labels
<ponga> oh yeah i was, sorry im not even specifc to myself anyway
<wasamasa> ponga: describe it with words that can actually used to pin down a specific property of it
<ponga> im not even 100% sure of what im saying
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<ponga> i mean, like, i don't think i saw a popular desktop app written in ruby
<ponga> only popular apps i saw are by rails
<centrx> That's just different use cases
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<kl> ponga: like I say, I love Ruby. I have a Ruby job, probably working on the largest (Ruby) system of people here; but I see warning signs which motivate me to keep my eyes outwards, too
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<Ionian> Learn Go
<kl> Ionian: I'm not really sure why you're recommending that
<kl> Are you?
<havenwood> Ionian: the 1980s is calling and wants it's language back
<ponga> kl: iwasn't particullarly bashing you , im only a noob who could i possibly bash
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<wasamasa> kl: I'm not sure whether that's the one I had in mind actually
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<kl> ponga: I know you're not buddy
<havenwood> s/it's/its
<ponga> :P
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<epitron> in the future, ruby will live on through its influence on other languages... (eg: rust, coffeescript ^_^)
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<kl> ponga: I'm just trying to not sound like a Ruby-hater, because that's furthest from the truth. Call it a disclaimer for me saying potentially "negative" things :)
<Ionian> WHAT
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<ponga> epitron: don't forget Swift plz
<Ionian> RUST IS INFLUNECED BY RUBY?
<ponga> lol
<havenwood> Ionian: yes
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<Ionian> time to elarn Rust
<epitron> its syntax is quite rubyified
<Ionian> learn*
<wasamasa> Ionian: ...
<ponga> even Swift language had some ruby aspects of syntax too
<wasamasa> Ionian: well, either way, time better spent
<Ionian> Rust is all about speed right ;)
<ponga> its style will live long
<kl> I'm going to learn Rust when Rust stops changing so damn much. I have things to learn in the meantime that are staying still
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<epitron> do people use Swift?
<Ionian> Yes
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<ponga> dunno
<wasamasa> kl: they plan to release 1.0 in february?
<epitron> i haven't heard anything about it since it was announced
<Ionian> RANKED 27 ON TIBOE INDEX BRO!!!
<Ionian> 17***
<havenwood> maybe one day Swift will get performance and tooling as nice as RubyMotion
<havenwood> but not today
<Ionian> O
<shevy> tiobe uses no real dataset for their ranking
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<Ionian> is Rubymotino fast for those apps?
<kl> wasamasa: awesome. I hear a lot of good stuff about it; it's only where I'm on a large endeavor myself (Scala & FP mastery) that I'm not looking at it right now
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<elvispresley-> havenwood, what about that playground thingy
<ponga> Ionian: i hear rubymoition is as fast as native
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<ponga> that its compiled into machine code?
<ponga> kl: can i ask you something
<Ionian> Is it a bad idea to learn rust?
<kl> ponga: sure
<havenwood> elvispresley-: pretty looking. but clunky, though i haven't used it in a while, maybe it's better now
<ponga> i always thought that ruby could be a lot of stress to work in a team
<ponga> cos the style of syntax is very
<ponga> you know
<ponga> can be different from people to people
<elvispresley-> rubocop
<shevy> you could define a style
<shevy> and use that in the team
<epitron> Ionian: YES LEARNING RUST WILL MELT YOUR BRAIN
<kl> ponga: I know what you mean. I'm on a highly disciplined team - our style tends to be the same
<ponga> that's what im asking kl now
<Ionian> epitron, srsly?
<wasamasa> kl: in case rust turns out to not be the solution, I'll just learn C and contribute to existing projects using it
<epitron> YES LOOK AT THIS: http://www.rust-lang.org/
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<shevy> the syntax looks like shit
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<ponga> kl: does your team use ruby not rails
<kl> ponga: the team mostly learned Ruby together, so they co-evolved. Take 10 different experienced Ruby devs, put them together for the first time - you may get more disagreement
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<kl> ponga: we'd never touch Rails - we tend to write Rack applications; Sinatra at most heaviest
<ponga> thanks kl
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<ponga> interesting
<ponga> cos i heard from ..shevy? that he'd defntly use rby over PHP for server/web
<kl> wasamasa: Rust is of interest to me because it's inspired with a lot of modern theory and features
<ponga> kl: do you think ruby is fast enough
<ponga> your personal opinion plz
<epitron> shevy: a compiled language w/ blocks bro: http://rustbyexample.com/expression.html
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<kl> ponga: for what, is the question
<epitron> pass dem blocks
<ponga> for what your team is doing
<elvispresley-> epitron, melt dem blox
<kl> ponga: oh certainly.
<ponga> fast enough to compete other languages in that field
<kl> ponga: fast enough to do the job.
<ponga> intersting
<kl> It's not a competition with other languages, it's a competition with non-functional requirements
<wasamasa> kl: true, this post reminded me of it: http://science.raphael.poss.name/rust-for-functional-programmers.html
<kl> And Ruby is winning
<ponga> cos a friend of mine, who is a big fan of java, keeps saying ruby is slow and won't do the job
<ponga> well
<ponga> no wonder he's a fan of java
<wasamasa> kl: which also links a post explaining what I don't like about go: http://yager.io/programming/go.html
<ponga> he speaks non-sense
<kl> ponga: incidentally, I run Ruby on the JVM - JRuby
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<ponga> ah Jruby
<wasamasa> "We have to be careful using languages that aren't good, because if we're not careful, we might end up stuck using them for the next 20 years."
<ponga> i never used it
<shevy> I use ruby over PHP because ruby is extremely mallable to how I'd like to describe web-related actions
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<ponga> is that like you can call Java library in ruby syntax?
<ponga> or you compile ruby code and run it on jvm
<ponga> i always wondered
<ponga> or both?
<ponga> sorry asking so many questions
<Ionian> Wait
<Ionian> are you actaully seriours
<Ionian> that I shouldnt learn rust?
<ponga> shevy: what's mallable mean
<kl> wasamasa: I'll read through those in a mo for sure
<kl> Ionian: your opinions don't seem to be strongly held as your own
<wasamasa> Ionian: honestly, just learn something and come back once you've had some more experience with writing code
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<kl> Ionian: have you considered joining my cult? You might like it. ;)
<shevy> ponga huh seems it is written "malleable" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malleable
<wasamasa> Ionian: talking in person with people having such experience at meetups and hackerspaces helps, too
<shevy> ponga "capable of being extended or shaped by beating with a hammer or by the pressure of rollers"
<shevy> :)
<ponga> lol
<wasamasa> Ionian: it's all better than fanboying certain languages or having armchair discussions about their drawbacks
<shevy> oh definition 2b is good "having a capacity for adaptive change"
<ponga> shevy: i see it what you mean by ruby is mallable
<kl> until you've done a ton of languages, you can't seriously debate their merits without sounding like an idiot to your future self
<shevy> yeah, I can define ad-hoc DSL APIs in ruby
<kl> s/done/mastered/
<shevy> when I want or need to
<ponga> you make ruby to work for you
<ponga> when PHP won't listen to you
<shevy> but in PHP, omg I am stuck with what they give me and that is less than what matz gave me
<ponga> :P
<kl> ponga: ruby > PHP for sure. PHP is only better for certain economical reasons
<shevy> php has got only one thing right - the focus on the www
<ponga> shevy: did i get the intention correct
<shevy> yeah
<ponga> oh i think i got it right
<kl> what php got right, was easy installation on shared servers
<kl> the day of shared servers is dead
<kl> just PHP happens to the left on the shore
<kl> be left*
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<ponga> isn't amazon big on shared servers service?
<ponga> their hosting service
<kl> ponga: yeah but they're sufficiently divided up that you wouldn't realise it's shared.
<ponga> oh
<ponga> thanks
<ponga> kl: if i used Jruby, can i use Java library in the sourcecode
<kl> ponga: yes. personally i wouldn't do it
<ponga> i'd want to use Java code for GUI
<kl> there's a reason I don't use Akka (which is awesome) for Ruby, even though I'd love to
<ponga> maybe oneday
<kl> ponga: it sounds like you're trying to stretch your tool a bit far, to me
<ponga> haha i know
<ponga> just saying, iwon't do it
<epitron> ugh, guis
<epitron> everything for making user interfaces is pretty terrible
<shevy> hehe
<shevy> CSS!
<epitron> the web, java, platform-specific toolkits
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<ponga> i just dream sometimes
<epitron> i haven't used the mac stuff much though
<kl> i haven't explored functional reactive programming (FRP)-style GUI frameworks yet
<kl> Perhaps they are the paradigm shift I've been waiting for
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<ponga> that could we use oneday CSS base for desktop GUI development
<ponga> is it possible? physically?
<epitron> kl: reactions have the issue that they can create paradoxes or feedback loops
<kl> ponga: CSS isn't great
<ponga> i mean , can it work
<shevy> ponga somewhat
<epitron> a new kind of bug :D
<kl> ponga: already done to a degree
<ponga> kl: but i'd much prefer myself using CSS over that JAVA's GUI programming
<ponga> my only gui exprience
<ponga> and it was horrible
<kl> epitron: feedback loops maybe, but paradoxes? I'd better hurry up and start FRPing if I can make me a paradox.
<epitron> CSS is great if you want all your widgets to flow like HTML
<epitron> it's terrible if you want to position things in interesting ways though
<epitron> also: desktop integration sucks
<ponga> hmm
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<ponga> i know it sounds nooby but what do people use for desktop GUI programming? is there like a framework for it?
<epitron> kl: DO IT
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<ponga> i only heard of people using C++ for it
<ponga> but nothing more than that
<epitron> qt, gtk, tk, fltk, atk
<kl> epitron: I don't remember paradoxes being mentioned in the seminal paper about Functional Reactive Programming. :)
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<ponga> thanks epitron
<epitron> wx, cocoa
<ponga> exact asnwer i was looking for
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<epitron> windows is like.. WD something
<ponga> epitron:
<kl> I have no idea how hard it sucks
<ponga> is there UI framework like those for ruby
<kl> ponga: ^
<ponga> oh sohes..
<epitron> yeah, but they all suck
<ponga> i know it sucks
<ponga> yeah shevy told me
<ponga> that they all suck
<ponga> why can't ruby get one?
<kl> I'm sure Ruby has bindings to those widget toolkit
<kl> don't expect it to feel like ruby, though
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<ponga> why didn't ruby get a UI framework
<kl> in fact, surely you can't even do GUIs in Ruby on the MRI
<ponga> sad
<centrx> Yes you can
<epitron> ponga: the binings are enormous
<kl> centrx: doesn't the GIL make it.... not work
<epitron> if you want to make the binding OOP, you have to write so much C code
<ponga> but it won't fell like ruby kl says :(
<shevy> ponga the idea of shoes was good when _why was in charge; I don't like that it now depends on java
<kl> centrx: I see shoes4 mandates JRuby, for that reason
<epitron> the mappings from the C library to Ruby is like 100,000 lines for almost all of them
<havenwood> shevy: that's just the first binding they're implementing
<centrx> oh mri
<epitron> jruby is probably better for making a GUI
<ponga> i'd want ruby version of node-webkit
<kl> shevy: what would you prefer a GUI to run on, MRI?
<epitron> cross-platform by default, maintained, bindings aren't insane
<ponga> is it too much of asking
<shevy> kl yeah. like ruby-gtk or ruby-qt
<shevy> or ruby-tk but it's too ugly to use
<kl> shevy: Ruby MRI's GILs would make GUIs suck ass
<kl> a whole lotta ass
<shevy> they work just fine here
<havenwood> kl: why do you say that?
<havenwood> kl: what does the GVL have to do with it?
<shevy> the main problem is that it takes way too much code to whip out GUIs
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<epitron> shevy: were you working on gtk bindings?
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<shevy> that's what I still use today!
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<kl> havenwood: hmm.... maybe Fibers would resolve that. GUIs need a whole lot of interleaving
<shevy> well, I don't know enough C to help the japanese lead dev
<havenwood> kl: the GVL might not be as restrictive as you're thinking...
<ponga> shevy: i know enough Japanese but not C
<shevy> I am afraid japanese won't help you build a GUI in ruby
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<epitron> kl: the gui would run independantly of the ruby interpreter for the most part. it would just need to poke ruby for callbacks, and threads would be fine for that most of the time
<ponga> hehe
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<ponga> epitron: sounds like socket communication to me, somewhat
<epitron> yep
<shevy> my dream would be a GUI agnostic framework that works nice
<wasamasa> like, shoes?
<shevy> yeah
<shevy> but _why is gone
<shevy> it is no longer shoes
<ponga> what do you mean GUI agnostic shevy
<shevy> ponga write it once and have it work everywhere
<epitron> it sounds like shevy wants wxwindows: TNG
<kl> epitron: if the GUI doesn't run on the MRI, sure
<ponga> ah hah
<ponga> shevy: is _why gone for good now?
<epitron> kl: bindings don't run on MRI :)
<shevy> Button.new
<ponga> i mean for ruby
<shevy> rather than Gtk::Button.new
<shevy> yeah ponga
<havenwood> kl: extensions are freeee to run wild
<kl> epitron: oh ofc. I was talking more about a native Ruby one
<shevy> perhaps he is still using ruby for personal projects
<epitron> ewwww
<epitron> noooo
<kl> havenwood: crossed wires, I think
<epitron> native ruby GUI would be slow as hell
<ponga> i'd always use ruby for personal stuffs
<kl> epitron: my point :)
<ponga> i don't want to use java for that, defntly not
<kl> I've no opposition to using bindings, except for the code being a ugly
<havenwood> ponga: JRuby != Java
<ponga> havenwood: i m not saying Jruby
<havenwood> oh
<ponga> my first language was java ser
<havenwood> thought you were talking Shoes4, vm
<ponga> and the exprience was
<ponga> terrible
<havenwood> nvm*
<shevy> you are a business man!
<shevy> java-ponga
<kl> someone get this guy a suit
<ponga> no, never
<ponga> please
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<kl> My main concern for Ruby, as a language, is that its main interpreter doesn't support concurrency properly. And concurrency is the future
<kl> That is a warning sign to me.
<havenwood> kl: it isn't the now, and the future plans are strong
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<havenwood> kl: worry not
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<epitron> kl: i think the reason all the C GUI tooklit bindings were so complex is because of the garbage collector
<kl> havenwood: concurrency *is* the now, really
<epitron> you're moving allocated objects from ruby to the GUI and vice versa
<havenwood> kl: how so?
<ponga> shevy: i'm merely a dev, im a linguist and only specialize in little part fields
<epitron> if that could be solved somehow, the bindings could probably be a lot smaller
<kl> havenwood: the applications I write are concurrent. I don't ever touch MRI except for small scripts, now
<ponga> and my today's question is, do you believe that Human brain has a backend same to turing machine of 0101 ?
<shevy> epitron my grand theory is that for some reason, ruby bindings are harder to do than python bindings
<shevy> of course I have no data to back up my claim
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<epitron> shevy: python bindings are more generated if i recall
<epitron> the py-gtk bindings were like 15,000 lines of python and 100,000 lines of xml
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<shevy> ack
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<epitron> were you there when i was pasting stats from all the bindings? :)
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<ponga> kl: the concurrency matter you speaking, is that how/why Node.js is so powerful?
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<kl> ponga: you have many questions, but in this day and age (maybe any), you wouldn't get very far otherwise :)
<kl> ponga: partially.
<ponga> i love asking questions, you don't have to answer all of them
<ponga> its ok to ignore some
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<kl> Also, hype. And economical reasons that business can exploit the same devs for both back- and front-end
<kl> ponga: it's fine :)
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<shevy> ponga I have another theory - because javascript has the de-facto monopoly over the browsers, and the www is one of the most important inventions the last... 20 or so years (30? 40? hmm), it's going to win
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<ponga> shevy: node.js?
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<shevy> all of it!
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<havenwood> kl: so you're using Ruby with threading for computationally intense tasks? what do benchmarks look like between MRI, JRuby and Rubinius?
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<ponga> oh i asked if you think human brain's backend work the same logic as turing machine that of 0 1 0 1 0 ...
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<ponga> as a linguist working chatbot AI, this is big to me
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<kl> havenwood: hehe. There is certainly the point where things get "parallel slowdown" - it's identifying those points I'm meant to be an expert at, not a denier of :)
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<kl> havenwood: in fact, actually, it's not so much concurrency for computational intensity. More for IO waiting.
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<epitron> 2014-11-08 02:11:36 Hanmac epitron: part of my code in the binding is about to prevent ruby from crashing ... like if you store a widget in a variable, then destroy the widget, and then call a function it does not cause a segfault
<havenwood> kl: Which GVL isn't blocking on anyways.
<havenwood> kl: hence my call for benchmarks!
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<ponga> i found this
<havenwood> kl: Just to be clear, MRI GVL doesn't block on IO calls.
<kl> havenwood: I called for benchmarks before (having joined after the decision was made to JRuby), with the fear that we were cargo culting. I'm going to instigate a benchmark soon
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<epitron> wxruby: 18,000 lines
<epitron> ruby-gtk(2,3): 69,000 lines each
<epitron> ruby-gnome2: 115,000 lines
<ponga> its so cute of an explanation
<epitron> pygtk: 2,000 lines of C, 10,000 lines of python, and 180,000 lines of XML
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<ponga> love it
<havenwood> kl: The GVL is actually pretty smart about releasing the lock when able.
<kl> havenwood: (the benchmark before didn't happen). But that is a useful insight
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<kl> havenwood: thanks for the chat. I've scheduled a benchmark
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<havenwood> kl: It's nice that JRuby and Rubinius are paving the way for the concurrent future. :)
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<kl> havenwood: my main concern about coding on MRI is that it can falsely assure you things are thread-safe - so I don't think I regret using JRuby
<kl> But I'm very interested to compare
<havenwood> kl: check this talk for some interesting insight into possible threading models for Ruby 3.0: http://www.confreaks.com/videos/4828-RubyConf2014-questions-for-matz
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<epitron> havenwood: did you ever look into how julia is built?
<centrx> We don't need threads, we have Symbol GC
<kl> havenwood: will do, brb
<havenwood> if you can find it in the long talk
<havenwood> probably about half way through
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<havenwood> It's unclear if Matz' preference for actor model or Koichi-san's preference for Objects being seen as immutable from other Threads.
<havenwood> will win.
<havenwood> Ruby 3.0 will be interesting! :)
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<havenwood> LLVM compilation and a new threading model are pretty exciting.
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<epitron> yep!
<epitron> i really liked that about julia
<epitron> the language is so easy to extend
<epitron> dynamic language features through compiling everything on the fly
<havenwood> JIT ALL THE THINGS! \o/
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<epitron> NO LOOPS
<epitron> JUST A STREAM OF MACHINE CODE
<kl> havenwood: rumors of types in Ruby 3 are very strange
<kl> I don't know the details, but it doesn't sound like Ruby
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<epitron> kl: that's the first qusetion in that confreaks talk
<kl> dayum i'm gonna watch it
<epitron> "are you serious about static types?"
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<havenwood> answer: no
<havenwood> :P
<kl> havenwood: haha, didnt think so
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<kl> re: concurrency & Ruby - Ruby's inherent mutability just doesn't make it sound like a language for concurrency, fundamentally, anyway
<havenwood> kl: Hence Koichi's idea to add immutability.
<epitron> copy on write \o/
<havenwood> kl: Will see what direction Ruby goes, but it's going there.
<havenwood> We'll*
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* TTilus likes it idea of immutability
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<havenwood> i think Rubinius' idea for types is pretty interesting: http://rubini.us/2014/11/14/rubinius-3-0-part-5-the-language/
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<kl> havenwood: Ruby's lack of alternative/implementation of something like Akka is what puts it in a precarious position, for me
<kl> Again, actor model, I'll see the video :)
<havenwood> kl: Have you not heard of JRuby, Rubinius, Topaz, MagLev, MRuby, etc?
<havenwood> kl: ^ alternative implementations
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<kl> havenwood: not implementation of platform, implementation of a framework like Akka
<havenwood> oh, lack of having Akka
<kl> havenwood: I don't intend to be a fanboy, but Akka seems to be doing pretty amazing things for large systems
<havenwood> kl: use Akka from Ruby? but we have Celluloid for now, and we'll see in Ruby 3.0 what we get.
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<kl> havenwood: we both know using Akkaf from Ruby is *really* wrong :)
<kl> -f
<kl> havenwood: there's Celluloid, in fact, DCell is really Celluloid's ecosystem's response to Akka - but DCell isn't production-ready (or getting *serious* development)
<havenwood> kl: yeah, DCell is vaporware but a neat idea
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<havenwood> kl: <3 DRb
<havenwood> kl: keep tuned for 3.0, that should have some of the goodies you're looking for
<havenwood> or at least lay the groundwork for the libraries that will fill that promies
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<havenwood> kl: just an aside, but i've enjoyed playing with concurrent-ruby: https://github.com/ruby-concurrency/concurrent-ruby#readme
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<kl> havenwood: something about DRb tells me it's not meant to be seriously used
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<kl> I hear positive sentiment about it here, but it doesn't seem like something to actually use for services
<havenwood> I use it without any weeping or gnashing of teeth. It's pretty simple under the hood really. Just pure Ruby.
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<havenwood> kl: the docs are terribad though >.>
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<kl> havenwood: it's really that I'm going from. Would you seriously use it for a large application decomposed into (micro-)services, though?
<havenwood> That's probably the biggest barrier to entry.
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<havenwood> kl: If Ruby is on both ends, it's nice.
<epitron> i haven't used drb since 1.8 ^_^
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<havenwood> stick to passing Marshallable Objects or cross your fingers!
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<apeiros_> *sob*, of course the Pg gem does not distinguish the different exceptions when a connection fails
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<epitron> "will ruby 3 have macros?" "the short answer is, 'no'. the slightly longer answer is, 'no way'."
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<kl> I wish Ruby had Maybe and monads and monoids and all that cool shit I love
<havenwood> kl: then use you some monads: https://github.com/tomstuart/monads#readme
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<kl> havenwood: I haven't looked at that yet (starting to) but I'm pretty sure I'd feel and maybe look like an idiot..! :)
<havenwood> monoidal!
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<kl> havenwood: I knew I recognised his name, I've seen this talk
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<havenwood> aha!
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<kl> havenwood: I'm not sure why he had to change the names to not be their standard monadic names
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<kl> both methods and monads alike, makes it weird
<havenwood> good point
<havenwood> dunno why
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<sargas_> I felt like hanging myself upside-down after reading this: "The superclass of the eigenclass of a class e the eigenclass of the class' superclass"
<sargas_> correction
<sargas_> I felt like hanging myself upside-down after reading this: "The superclass of the eigenclass of a class is the eigenclass of the class' superclass"
<sargas_> but then just by being upside-down I got enough blood on my brain to understand that statement :)
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<jhass> sargas_: note that core settled on the term singleton class instead of eigenclass
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<jhass> and I'd prefer that anyway
* apeiros_ doesn't
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<apeiros_> but standardizing is more important.
<jhass> eigenclass sounds silly ;P
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<apeiros_> and singleton_class leads to confusion :-|
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<apeiros_> but it's pointless to argue. as you said, singleton_class is the standard.
<shevy> how about
<shevy> eigenton!
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<sargas_> the book mentioned Matz preferred the term eigenclass... but it didn't have a standard name at the time this book was written
<sargas_> jhass: thanks for letting me know
<elvispresley-> jhass, sounds german
<shevy> the eigenclass of the superclass of a class is the superclass' eigenclass
<sargas_> I agree that singleton class leads to confusion at first...
<apeiros_> elvispresley-: it is. just as eigenvector is.
<shevy> Eigentor
<jhass> or kindergarden
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<apeiros_> kindergarden surprised me
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<shevy> they just flat our stole that word
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<shevy> *out
<elvispresley-> borrowed it ;)
<sargas_> jhass: being German, did the term eigenclass make more sense to you over singleton class at first?
<jhass> elvispresley-: my english teacher used to say English is 60% german and 30% french
<shevy> the problem is that eigenclass literally means selfclass translated sargas_
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<jhass> sargas_: I don't quite remember, but I don't think so
<sargas_> shevy: that's exactly why I ask... to me it makes more sense to call them eigenclass
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<elvispresley-> jhass, i work with a german girl, and she says 'darling' a lot, it's very cute
<shevy> makes as much sense as calling it selfclass then
<shevy> and then you have to wonder about constructs like class << self
<shevy> that's an Eigenclass no?
<sargas_> but if you think that a singleton class is where class methods are defined for that unique class... it makes more sense
<shevy> I thought singleton refers to it being unique? like only one of its kind?
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<jhass> sargas_: well, "class method" is just a shortcut term for instance methods in a class' singleton class
<jhass> ruby itself does not know class methods
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<godd2> is there any difference between false and nil other than their response to .class and .nil?
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<epitron> that eigenclass sentence is easier to understand as family relationship. parent has dog, child has puppy of dog, puppy's parent is child's parent's dog
<jhass> godd2: some, #to_i comes to mind
<jhass> I'd recard them as strictly different types really
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<jhass> *regard
<apeiros_> godd2: also to_s
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<godd2> okay thanks
<apeiros_> godd2: and of course the semantics/meaning
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<godd2> apeiros_ right, no I know they should be thought of as different things and such, I was just wondering what the practical difference were, and there are more than I first thought :)
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<epitron> i'm saying that eigenclasses are puppies people!
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<shevy> lol
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<sargas_> epitron: they are... and they do only what the owner says
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<godd2> I like Metaprogramming Ruby's analogy of eigenclasses as shadows.
<sargas_> epitron: they respond only the owner's call
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<epitron> godd2: that's good too!
<epitron> sargas_: yeah!
<epitron> well, kinda :)
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<epitron> in ruby the puppy intercepts messages first
<epitron> i guess you can think of messages as letters delivered by the postman
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<epitron> and the puppy runs up to him and barks at him first and tries to steal the letter
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<epitron> if the letter isn't for the puppy, it gets given to the owner
<shevy> KILL THE STINKING PUPPY
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<shevy> that letter was mine
<godd2> class << self; self.kill; end
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<epitron> no wait, sorry.. child then follows puppy and checks if letter is for him
<epitron> then the parent's adult dog goes out and checks
<epitron> then the parent finally comes out and picks up their damn bill
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<epitron> you could also think of the eigenclass as a space suit?
<epitron> :D
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<leitz> Newbie alert! Trying to figure out why my spec file can't load a simple class. The module seems simple enough. https://gist.github.com/LeamHall/adcd31f0c5fd943b438c
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<jhass> Class Upp
<jhass> that's already invalid
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<jhass> also don't use Ruby 1.8 to learn
<jhass> it's beyond death
<leitz> Hey jhass! Good morning!
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<leitz> Why is "Class Upp" invalid?
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<leitz> If that snippet of code is in the spec file it works. Trying to move it to its own module.
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<jhass> Class is a constant, Upp is a constant, there's no method with the name Class
<jhass> and no keyword
<jhass> it's class Upp you're after
<shevy> leitz Class should have been class, you must look carefully at what you type
<leitz> Ah...
<shevy> ruby demands good eyesight
<shevy> in PHP you can have bad eyesight
<shevy> I even wrote functions like this
<shevy> function STD_REPLACE()
<leitz> Yeah, a newie foible.
<shevy> actually I used to write all caps functions... I think you can also invoke them through std_REPLACE() then?
<shevy> PHP is weird
<leitz> "class" works.
<shevy> \o/
<leitz> PHP is fun, though.
<shevy> write a few months of ruby
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<shevy> then we make another recording :)
<jhass> leitz: and I'm serious about 1.8. Get a newer version ;)
<leitz> Until you try to pass a couple dozen variables to a function.
<shevy> well you can do this in ruby too
<shevy> def foo(a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k)
<shevy> though most people will opt out to use a hash instead
<leitz> Hey jhass, we've had the 1.8 discussion at least twice, I think. I'm stuck here.
<jhass> leitz: and I prefer the RSpec 3 syntax a lot personally, though there are people who disagree
<shevy> def foo(input, hash)
<shevy> if hash.has_key? :config
<shevy> # do something here
<elvispresley-> has_key?() is deprecated
<leitz> Yeah, but I'm trying to do better in Ruby than I was in PHP. :)
<jhass> elvispresley-: huh? source?
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<shevy> elvispresley- by the way when I first read your IRC nick, I thought you are freenode staff
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* wasamasa read this as "has_king?() is deprecated"
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<agent_white> BLUE SUEDE SHOES
<jhass> "Besides that, backward incompatibility introduced by renaming them would be unbearable."
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<agent_white> erm... afternoon folks!
<jhass> I'd say that's a very soft deprecation
<jhass> more a "matz doesn't like them"
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<elvispresley-> i think youre right, no warning for has_key?() anyway
<shevy> well more than 2 years and a half
<shevy> with that speed, it'll be deprecated at ruby 4.0
<elvispresley-> ruby3 is the next release that can break stuff
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<apeiros_> seriously, I hate cli apps without -h/--help
<elvispresley-> which one is that?
<apeiros_> atm, launchctl
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<jhass> it's shiny, it doesn't need explanations
<shevy> hehehe
<elvispresley-> jhass, the osx motto
<shevy> if you can not figure out by trial and error, you must not use it!
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<agent_white> So what's so fancy about rspec 3?
<jhass> config.disable_monkeypatching! ?
<agent_white> Poor monkeys :(
<jhass> then those composoable matcher thingys, although I haven't used them (much) yet
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<agent_white> Hm.
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<joshsmith> does anyone know of a way to do divmod (or something similar) to get the quotient and modulus from a number that preserves rounding
<joshsmith> for example I have 1.33333333333
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<joshsmith> doing divmod 1 will yield [1, 0.33333333333333326]
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<kl> jhass: sorry, I read up but probably missed what you were talking about. What was it that Matz dislikes and intends to deprecate?
<jhass> has_key? and is_a?
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<icbm> Is there some alternative for is_a? that he wants me to use?
<jhass> joshsmith: don't think there's something, you have to round afterwards or yet better round only on output
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<jhass> icbm: kind_of? is the only one I know of
<jhass> I don't think it's Module#=== or Module#<
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<jhass> tbh. I don't think that either will ever varnish from the language
<icbm> jhass: Of all those, is_a? is the most readable, IMHO.
<jhass> and I like them both, so I'll keep using them
<jhass> yeah
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<havenwood> >> r = 1.33333333333r; (r - r.floor).to_f
<eval-in__> havenwood => 0.33333333333 (https://eval.in/234429)
<havenwood> joshsmith: Rational is handy ^
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<epitron> >> 1.33333333333.to_s.split(".").last
<eval-in__> epitron => "33333333333" (https://eval.in/234430)
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<epitron> :D
<havenwood> haha
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<kl> jhass: hehe, is_a? equivalents suck in any language
<kl> i'm not convinced with has_key? to the same degree though
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<kl> although a simple hash[:key] suffices as a simpler alternative, just not as underlyingly flawed for system design
<epitron> icbm: sometimes i use "case object; when Type, Othertype, Sotyped ..."
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<epitron> i like pulling all my "is_a?"s out into one big dispatcher method with a case statement
<icbm> epitron: Yep. I use that one occasionally as well. I sorta counted that as === though.
<epitron> === is nasty -- i never use that by itself :)
<epitron> the order of the arguments is so odd to me
<jhass> kl: those are not equivalent though
<epitron> it should have some kind of arrow symbol really
<jhass> especially if .default_proc is defined but even without it, quite different actually
<icbm> epitron: "Nasty is ===" mean you
<havenwood> >> 1.33333333333.to_s.rpartition(?.)[1..-1].unshift(?0).join.to_f
<eval-in__> havenwood => 0.33333333333 (https://eval.in/234431)
<havenwood> epitron: ^
<havenwood> >.>
<epitron> >> [String === "hello", "hello" === String]
<eval-in__> epitron => [true, false] (https://eval.in/234432)
<joshsmith> I actually thing my question is more that the numerator and denominator from the modulus ends up being incredibly large
<jhass> epitron: yeah, === is for case and nothing else IMO ;)
<jheg> if I need to test a string and return true if it (1) contains letters && (2) they are all upcase should I use regex or just ruby string methods?
<epitron> havenwood: dear lord :)
<havenwood> oh, no need to add the zero i suppose
<joshsmith> >> 0.333333333.to_r.numerator
<eval-in__> joshsmith => 3002399748577931 (https://eval.in/234433)
<shevy> jheg regex
<jheg> cool thanks shevy
<joshsmith> >> 0.333333333.to_r.denominator
<eval-in__> joshsmith => 9007199254740992 (https://eval.in/234434)
<shevy> jheg but make your second requirement go first
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<jheg> can you use && with regex?
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<shevy> x = 'abc'; if x == x.upcase; x !~ /\d+/; end
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<jheg> oh yeah good idea
<jheg> thanks again
<kl> jhass: oh, I didn't even know about .key? -- not equivalent?
<jhass> jheg: also make sure to thing about unicode letters and scripts that don't have case distinction
* kl opens up pry
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<jhass> kl: {a: nil}
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<jhass> or yet better {a: false}
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<havenwood> >> (5.333333333r % 1).to_f
<eval-in__> havenwood => 0.333333333 (https://eval.in/234435)
<havenwood> joshsmith: ^
<epitron> lol
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<epitron> % 1 is the winner
<epitron> >> 1.333333 % 1
<eval-in__> epitron => 0.3333330000000001 (https://eval.in/234436)
<epitron> NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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<epitron> >> 1.333333 % 1.0000000000000001
<eval-in__> epitron => 0.3333330000000001 (https://eval.in/234437)
<epitron> NOOOOOOOOOO
<havenwood> hah
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<kl> jhass: ah, the false case does sell it to me.
<epitron> >> 1.333333 % BigDecimal.new("1.0000000000000001")
<eval-in__> epitron => uninitialized constant BigDecimal (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/234438)
<epitron> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<kl> jhass: though my (potential) use cases for has_key? would pretty much always want same behavior for if the key was nil or false
<epitron> oh interesting
<jhass> kl: I agree that you can get away with just querying most of the time, but there are valid usecases for key?/has_key?
<jhass> kl: especially if you think about Hash#default and Hash#default_proc
<epitron> >> require 'bigdecimal'; (1.333333 % BigDecimal.new("1")).to_f
<eval-in__> epitron => 0.333333 (https://eval.in/234439)
<epitron> HAH
<epitron> suck it, IEEE
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<havenwood> >> require 'bigdecimal'; require 'bigdecimal/util'; (1.3333333.to_d % 1).to_f
<eval-in__> havenwood => 0.3333333 (https://eval.in/234440)
<havenwood> and a little suga
<epitron> oooo
<epitron> that's nice
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<epitron> it always feels dirty to initialize a number class using a string
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<apeiros_> strings are one format which allow arbitrary precision numbers being passed across apps
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<agent_white> <3 Mickens. All his articles are awesome.
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<comm64> maybe someone could say if this would be a bad idea or not
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<comm64> I'm new to ruby and trying to learn by doing
<comm64> and I was thinking about implementing wordpress in ruby
<comm64> just as an exercise
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<agent_white> Sounds just fine to me!
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<comm64> awesome
<comm64> I've been googling the various things that are going on in the wp source
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<comm64> and on one particular thing in php you have "if ( !isset($wp_did_header) )"
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<comm64> if the variable is not set do something
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<comm64> stackoverflow suggests def get_var @var ||= SomeClass.new()
<comm64> end
<apeiros_> ew
<apeiros_> properly initialize @ivars
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<apeiros_> reserve ||= for when you truly want lazy values
<apeiros_> IMO isset tests are an anti-pattern.
<comm64> could you please explain anti-pattern?
<apeiros_> a pattern which you should not use
<comm64> ah lol
<comm64> so your saying there is a better way to do it
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<apeiros_> yes
<comm64> in the source it's has the isset in an if block with the condition being a boolean variable which in the block is set to true
<comm64> but its asking if the variable is not set then set it?
<apeiros_> you should probably not translate the php 1:1
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<apeiros_> php idioms don't translate to ruby idioms. also the php code is quite likely not role model code to begin with.
<elvispresley-> is there such a thing as good PHP? accordng to a PHP dev i know, no, there is not
<apeiros_> what your code does we don't see comm64 - you only showed the condition.
<comm64> this may be better asked in a php room
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<apeiros_> and yes, questions about the php part -> php room :)
<jheg> if msg = ‘Go123’
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<centrx> and incomplete if-statement does not a question make
<jheg> why doesnt ‘msg =~ /^[a-zA-Z]*$/‘ eval to true?
<centrx> The literal translation would be if !defined?
<apeiros_> jheg: because that's not how it's defined.
<jheg> doesn’t that say retrun true if any char is a-z or A-Z?
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<apeiros_> jheg: it evals to nil or trueish
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<jheg> so shouldnt it eval to 0
<jheg> ?
<apeiros_> 0 is trueish
<apeiros_> jheg: you do know how to read the docs?
<jheg> but it returns nil :/
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<jheg> wrong expression ha
<apeiros_> that means your msg did not match
<apeiros_> and I'm not sure why "Go123" should match /^[a-zA-Z]*$/
<jheg> so if i want to ‘Go123’ to eval to true if there is at least 1 letter
<comm64> the if statement says if variable is not set then set the variable to true and then it requires a few files thats all there is
<apeiros_> msg =~ /\p{Letter}/
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<jheg> what is \p ?
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<apeiros_> comm64: describing what code does is bad. it relies on a) you understanding the code, b) you properly communicating what it does. pasting code is much better.
<comm64> ok
<apeiros_> comm64: and yes, this is from experience. people fail at both, a) and b) all the time.
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<apeiros_> jheg: \p{…} is a character class. see `ri Regexp` for more details
<comm64> if ( !isset($wp_did_header) ) { $wp_did_header = true; require_once( dirname(__FILE__) . '/wp-load.php' ); wp(); require_once( ABSPATH . WPINC . '/template-loader.php' );
<comm64> }
<jheg> thanks apeiros_ agent_white
<agent_white> No thank you. Never knew about that. Looks much prettier to me than usual regex syntax.
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<apeiros_> comm64: I'd guess this is a php way to ensure the "framework" is loaded. and loaded only once.
<apeiros_> seems like they don't trust on require_once truly requiring only once, lol
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<comm64> lol
<comm64> thank you
<apeiros_> then again, given php's abysmal naming - require_once might actually not mean "require only once"
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<apeiros_> but as you said - php room can tell you that better.
<shevy> hehe
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<jhass> I guess require_once only protects against other require_once calls, but not against require/include
<jhass> apeiros_: spam bot is back as picassoo
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<apeiros_> jhass: yeah. I'm not willing to ban. too much effort.
<jhass> they're using the same text since months, kinda wish freenode would just k-line based on that :/
<apeiros_> IMO that'd be the proper approach.
<jhass> wonder if there's a weechat plugin ...
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<apeiros_> they could also just detect the pattern of same host querying multiple people.
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<pppd> <% if @value -%>
<pppd> This seems to return false for boolean values...
<shevy> what is the - there
<pppd> oh
<pppd> it should avoid printing?
<pppd> don't know, what would it do?
<jheg> <% %>
<jheg> wont print
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<Pattt> hi
<shevy> I have no idea, that's why I am asking
<jheg> <%= %>
<jheg> will
<Pattt> trying to install boostrap-sass
<pppd> jheg: but the if condition thing should not print anyway?
<Pattt> i am unable to gem install boostrap-sass
<aaas> hello, im trying to install ruby on my ubuntu machine using rvm as 'autotest' seems to just hang.... I run through the install of rvm but the ruby executable is installed to my home diretory...if I try something like sudo rvm install ruby-2.1.5....should i not be installing with root or to /usr/bin ?
<Pattt> any help for a noob?
<jheg> what do you want to print if true?
<pppd> jheg: oh, there comes more mixed erb + normal stuff in the template
<pppd> <% end -%>
<jheg> AFAIK you do <% if someting is true %>
<jheg> <%= what you want to output %>
<jheg> <% end %>
<pppd> right
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<pppd> jheg: this if condition should catch undef variables
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<jheg> might be above my current level of knowledge - not sure I totally understand what you want to do
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<pppd> ok
<pppd> I overview it
<apeiros_> pppd: accessing undefined local variables raises in ruby
<apeiros_> pppd: also note that local variables are not the same as instance variables
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<apeiros_> accessing undefined instance variables will evaluate to nil
<Pattt> where do you put downloaded gems?
<havenwood> aaas: a single-user install of RVM will install rubies in the local user directory, no matter th e$UID
<pppd> Pattt: use bundler
<Pattt> ?
<havenwood> aaas: #rvm is a helpful, active channel - just for future reference
<Pattt> all i want is to install boostrap-sass
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<Pattt> and its going tits up
<apeiros_> Pattt: that's not a helpful problem description
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<aaas> havenwood thanks ...it looks like when i ran the curl command to get rvm it was after a non-sudo version of the command and was using my local rvm rather than the one in /usr/local/rvm...after rmoving ~/.rvm I think it's workinb etter now...thanks for your help and the info
<pppd> apeiros_: Puppet values are set to undef by default. So undef values are empty, not specified. Those should not be rendered in that erb template.
<havenwood> aaas: (unlike say ruby-install, which would use /opt/rubies if $UID == 0.)
<Pattt> running: gem install bootstrap-sass
<pppd> I don't like rvm, I use rbenv or chrubies.
<havenwood> pppd: +1 chruby
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<apeiros_> pppd: "in puppet <rule x works differently>" - maybe you should have told about puppet beforehand then?
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<havenwood> aaas: aha. no prob.
<pppd> hm, right
<pppd> apeiros_: yes, puppet seems to be special here
<pppd> erb templates aren't always the same
<pppd> but puppet is based on ruby
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<aaas> havenwood which method do you recommmend to install ruby?
<aaas> i just wiped everytihng and im going to start from the beginning
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* TTilus prefers chruby + ruby-install
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* apeiros_ has always been happy with rvm, so never tried another
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<aaas> so is it the ruby way to not install to /usr/bin so that you can install multiple versions? rvm keeps wanting to put it into my home directory
<benzrf> TTilus: same
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<TTilus> aaas: imo theres no "ruby way" in this
<benzrf> the ruby way:
<benzrf> TIMTOWTDI
<aaas> do other things besides rvm install to /usr/bin? it's just strange to me that it's installed into my home dir...but then again i use apt-get for everything usually
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<TTilus> aaas: you might very well have a os/distro default ruby on /usr/bin
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<TTilus> and still have other rubies too
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<TTilus> under home or /opt/rubies, those are the most common locations iirc
<aaas> TTilus yes i do...the only reason im abandoing it is because it's 1.9.1 and im running into issues with 'autotest' just hanging...maybe i should go back and try and fix that directly...i just hoped 2.1.5 would have fixed a bug if that was it
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<TTilus> and again, iirc, all the ruby versioning thingies can handle /usr/bin/ruby thats not installed by them
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<TTilus> aaas: just pick the next ruby versioning thingie and try it :)
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<aaas> ok looks like the vote was chruby + ruby-install...ill try that
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<jheg> Anyone read Eloquent Ruby?
<Hanmac> hey does have someone exp with lvm and restoring? i think i killed my index :/ and #lvm looks dead
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<pontiki_zzz> jheg: yes; i highly recommend it
<jheg> ah awesome gf might be getting it for me for xmas
<jheg> good for beginners would you say?
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<pontiki> sure, it should help, i'd think
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<jheg> great, ta
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<Pattt> not sure i even have an ssl for ruby
<aaas> TTilus is chruby and ruby-install two different methods for teh same thing (installing ruby)? or do you use both of them for different purposes?
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<pontiki> Pattt: you do; it's part of the stdlib
<pontiki> aaas: ruby-install is for installing ruby versions. chruby is for switching between them.
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<Pattt> Step 3: Copy new trust certificate
<Pattt> i have searched for ssl_certs and can not be found
<aaas> ah ok thanks pontiki
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<pontiki> Pattt: you might need to install certs, then
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<Pattt> :s new to ruby
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<pontiki> where did you put the file you obtained in step 1?
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<Pattt> in c:\ruby21
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<Pattt> just put it there while i follow steps
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<pontiki> but you can't find it now?
<Pattt> no no
<Pattt> i have it, but have no ssl_certs dir
<atmosx> I feel sorry for people running ruby on windows.
<Pattt> cant even find: GeoTrustGlobalCA.pem
<atmosx> actually I feel sorry for people running windows :-(
<Pattt> what do you use?
<atmosx> Pattt: anything but windwos
<Pattt> helpful
<atmosx> Pattt: but that's just me, I didn't meant to say that the operating system made by Microsoft sucks big time.
<Pattt> found it
<atmosx> Pattt: awesome
<Pattt> jesus
<atmosx> christ?
<Pattt> a men
<Hanmac> atmosx: do you use lvm?
<atmosx> Hanmac: lvm ? linux volume manager?!
<atmosx> Hanmac: rvm? yes
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<Hanmac> yeah because it seems i accently did delete my meta data ... and now i think i cant access my data anymore :/
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<atmosx> Hanmac: ext4?
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<Hanmac> atmosx: 5 disks: Raid5 with mdadm: that raid is used as lvm pysical volume inside that is one vg group, in that are 2 logical volumes ... currently all metadata is gone and i dont know how to fix ...
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<Pattt> getting another error grr
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<atmosx> Hanmac: your FS partitions are ext4 FS?
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<atmosx> Pattt: why don't you install Linux and try running the same code, who knows, might work.
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<Pattt> am on someone elses laptop
<Pattt> i could try linux on my own pc though
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<atmosx> Pattt: try a live distro
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<atmosx> Hanmac: did you compile your own kernel? do you have CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION enabled?
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<Pattt> just trying to update ruby now
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<Pattt> right mess this
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<atmosx> Hanmac: Check out if your kernel supports GPT partitions.
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<Pattt> getting this: gem install bootstrap-sass
<Pattt> ERROR: While executing gem ... (OpenSSL::X509::StoreError)
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<Pattt> followed those steps i showed earlier
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<Hanmac> atmosx: did you said something helpful after i got disconnected?
<atmosx> Hanmac: Oh you got disconnected wait
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<atmosx> [01:42:30] <atmosx>Hanmac: did you compile your own kernel? do you have CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION enabled?
<atmosx> [01:43:31] <atmosx>Hanmac: Check out if your kernel supports GPT partitions.
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<Hanmac> atmosx: i did not, normal linux system, and it did work before, but now i did remove the metadata (first i did overwrite it with wrong one, and then later i did remove the lvm label directly because it only was wrong data)
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<atmosx> Hanmac: Hm, that sounds like a bit fucked up :-/
<atmosx> Hanmac: What distro is it? debian
<atmosx> ?
<Hanmac> yeah ubuntu ... currently on a live system
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<Pattt> fuck this is driving me nuts
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<atmosx> If you overwritten the metadata (that you wanted) I'm not sure that there is a way to restore that, other than file recovery tools... You might wanna ask on some raid mailing list?
<atmosx> Hanmac: ^
<atmosx> Pattt: what exactly are you trying to accomplish anyway?
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<Pattt> install bootstrap sass
<Hanmac> atmosx: hm i got the raid working, its the lvm that did broke this time :/
<Pattt> this is my current issue:
<Pattt> gem install bootstrap-sass
<Pattt> ERROR: While executing gem ... (OpenSSL::X509::StoreError)
<Pattt> i do not have : certified gem installed