kentonv changed the topic of #sandstorm to: Welcome to #sandstorm: home of all things sandstorm.io. Say hi! | Have a question but no one is here? Try asking in the discussion group: https://groups.google.com/group/sandstorm-dev
<isd>
There's a .vagrant directory that should be under your .sandstorm directory
<isd>
The VM itself is managed by the hypervisor; in my case there's a ~/VirtualBox VMs directory that has all the storage in it
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<prompt-laser>
where does sandstorm actually store all of the data for the grains?
<isd>
for the grain's storage itself, and there's some metdata in sandstorm's db.
<prompt-laser>
so everything is completely self contained in /opt/sandstorm ?
<isd>
yeah.
<isd>
If your system uses systemd it'll add a unit file outside of that, but otherwise everything is in /opt/sandstorm
<prompt-laser>
thanks
<isd>
np
<prompt-laser>
so theoretically, if i wanted to increase storage i could just point /opt/sandstorm to a separate block device/network share/etc and just keep increasing the storage of that device as the amount of data saved in sandstorm grew?
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<isd>
Yes.
<prompt-laser>
in that case, does sandstorm play nicely inside a container?
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<prompt-laser>
nvm, found it in the docs
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<isd>
abliss, ocdtrekkie, one of the things we talked about yesterday was writing a blog post, but nobody really volunteered to do it. Do you guys have opinions on next steps?
<isd>
I could do some of the work, but I think end of January might be pushing it at this point; that's 4 days away.
<isd>
I'm going to draft something, we can go from there.
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<isd>
I wrote in the first person with me as the author, but if others want to do stuff, we can shift it to be a collective voice with multiple authors; I don't feel strongly.
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<ocdtrekkie>
isd: I like the draft blog post. I would mention in Adam's blog updating GitWeb/adding "Pages" publishing. If we don't want to bloat the paragraph too much, we can leave what he's trying to package for now out. (I'd rather focus on accomplishments over investigations.)
<ocdtrekkie>
I would also perhaps, above in things like i18n, mention mass transfers being added, and then maybe in our bullets mention Lauri working on adding i18n to mass transfers. It's a WIP, but it's also like a close-to-merging WIP, I think.
<ocdtrekkie>
That's it for my notes, and then ideally try to get it in front of Kenton ASAP.
<ocdtrekkie>
I like the first person tone, and I think it'd serve us well if update blogs are coming from more than just one person, rather than using the corporate "we" for everything.
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<isd>
How to frame the mass transfers feature is interesting; it's a real feature, but the circumstances of its implementation (oasis shutting down) makes it feel like it doesn't fit thematically in that paragraph.
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<ocdtr_web>
Mass transfers is a valuable backup and migration capability. Especially if you are entrusting someone else to run your server. But yeah, I understand if you don\u2019t think it fits.
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<isd>
I think adding a mention of xet7's work makes sense. My inclination is to leave it out the list of examples of sandstorm not being dead though.
<isd>
And yeah, I think I'll swap out the matrix stuff for something about gw pages.
<isd>
(made those updates)
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<ocdtr_web>
isd: I think it looks great and you should get it to Kenton ASAP for his opinion and if he can get it published near month-end.
<ocdtr_web>
As an aside, I think I might have in me a whole blog post about the vagrant-spk 1.0 launch, so I might try to do that mid-February if I get everything done.
<ill_logic>
A few meetings ago I brought up the idea of asking hosting providers about one-click installs for Sandstorm. We decided it's too early in our progress to expect them to buy in.
<ill_logic>
However I'm not sure I got a great read on whether it's a bad idea to try to reach out ahead of time to establish some contacts?
<ill_logic>
Do we want to wait until we at least have the legal structure in place before we even start talking? I'm just looking for downsides, I don't mind taking the time to send a few emails.
<ocdtr_web>
ill_logic: For one-click installs it is probably fine to approach as a community project, many things people one-click install are probably "projects".
<ocdtr_web>
I think some of the like partner program type stuff that would get us discounts for getting Sandstorm hosting via provider x or y may require we have an entity in charge of it.
<ocdtr_web>
Working with hosting providers on one-click installs would get us the foot-in-door to talk about partner program stuff later too.
<ocdtr_web>
The biggest thing I would investigate prior though is if the Sandstorm installer is automate-able enough to do a one-click install. I know it's close because vagrant-spk and the tests and such can install Sandstorm, but generally that is not with an eye on it being in a usable mode.
<ocdtr_web>
Even if we assume Sandcats for setup, you'd need to provide the domain and email address for that (and have a fail-out path for names in use), and then presumably we may be able to "cheat" and end with "here's your admin-token to go configure login providers".
<ill_logic>
Ah. So maybe there would need to be a version of Sandstorm that is installed with a single command, and everything else is done via web interface.
<ocdtr_web>
Because login providers gets nasty with either having to setup OAuth applications or having to do SMTP config. Hosting providers may or may not have a suitable SMTP service.
<ill_logic>
Or an option for install.
<abliss>
<isd "(made those updates)"> I like the new version. Better not to mention matrix till it's further along (and I can be more confident it'll bear any fruit)
<ill_logic>
ocdtr_web: Okay. I'll write up what you said as I understand it in Wekan (unless it doesn't belong there)
<ocdtr_web>
ill_logic: We *are* close to install with single command, it's just, we need to have the right input options. Right now everywhere we automate installing Sandstorm, we are using localhost to interact with it and dev accounts.
<ill_logic>
(Maybe a case for more Wekan boards? Track legal, fanincing, etc.)
<ocdtr_web>
I think the Wekan is good for organizing where the plan is, yes. Just not for soliciting input, because we don't get notified.
<ill_logic>
Yep.
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<ill_logic>
ocdtr_web okay could you look at it to make sure it makes sense and that I represented you correctly? In one part I quoted you directly and edited it. And a couple "TODO"s to clarify. And there's a subtask as well.
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<ill_logic>
how did you come across this? Is it already reputably in good shape to use?
<ocdtr_web>
It's high on HN today, from a YC company.
<ill_logic>
ah cool.
<abliss>
so far i only have 2 "devices" (one arm, one x86_64) and i tried installing nagios on each to monitor the other.
<abliss>
i've been thinking about some kind of sandstorm "devops mesh" where we each self-host in a ring, doing monitoring+alerting+encrypted backups for each other
<ill_logic>
On the one hand, it's easy to run and install, so it should be easily packageable by us (minus the networking). OTOH, it means people don't really need us as much.
<abliss>
(one thing i've been looking for and haven't yet found is a cheap usb-addressable 5v USB power supply, so my devices can hard-reset each other)
<ill_logic>
But there's a ton of little things we could throw in. It would be really cool to do so.
<ocdtr_web>
abliss: If you're willing to cut it at the 120V level, cheapy Wi-Fi devices that can on-off your power are plentiful.
<abliss>
"In order to register a device, we first need to install Docker on the device" -- sigh
<ocdtr_web>
:/ That seems lazy.
<abliss>
ocdtr_web yeah, i got one, but (a) $29 is not exactly "cheap" and (b) I don't necessarily trust my wifi to be working (the one i got has already dropped off the wifi once) and (c) they all want to register themselves with some godawful cloud services provider
<ocdtr_web>
There's definitely a bunch of Linux platform things lately that have just defaulted to "just install it via our Docker image" rather than troubleshoot people's distros and all.
<abliss>
(i'm not religiously against docker or anything (yet) but making it a required prerequisite is yucky. For one thing, you really need root access.)
<ill_logic>
Interesting that installing the server is a one-off executable, while the controlled devices need Docker.
<ocdtr_web>
ill_logic: So what I meant by discounts, is that for software you can one-click install, some companies may offer introductory offers for users.
<abliss>
ocdtr_web thanks, but in addition to being over my "cheapness threshold", (a) 120v is really overkill, and that thing is big... plus (b) it seems to want to be controlled by a GPIO rather than USB and I don't really want to crack open my compute stick and solder to it (yet). I ordered one of these and plan to splice it into the power line of a USB cable:
<ocdtr_web>
For instance, someone comes to Sandstorm's website, decides they want to use it and host it on a VPS provider. Potentially Sandstorm could list some VPS providers which A. can one-click deploy the software, and B. will give this new Sandstorm user a discount for X months or whatever for their new Sandstorm server.
<abliss>
i'm just frustrated because i know this product must exist somewhere, and i just can't find it because the internet is clogged with heavily SEOd (and mostly really crappy) IOT power switches
<ocdtr_web>
abliss: I honestly think Adafruit used to sell one that was a relay in the middle of a 12 inch power extension cord, but I couldn't find it.
<ocdtr_web>
On the power line of a USB cable seems safe enough. (One of the reasons I find these pre-assembled options for 120V is I really never want to do my own soldering on 120V anything.)
<ill_logic>
ocdtr_web Okay so it wasn't a separate interim step before partnership, it would just be part of the partnership.
<ill_logic>
That's what I misunderstood.
<ocdtr_web>
It is plausible some companies will just be excited about one-click installs and some companies will have partner/referral programs we can use to pass savings to new Sandstorm users.
<ocdtr_web>
I am still somewhat dubious how likely hosting providers are to want to fund Sandstorm development directly, although self-hosting solutions are a good competitive alternative to major cloud providers whom VPS companies are not.
<ill_logic>
Well, I guess it comes down to how much traffic we send their way. It may be a small investment for them to try, given that they've done this sort of thing before.
<ill_logic>
And this is why I thought of Linode before Digital Ocean. Smaller companies may be more interested, perhaps.
<ocdtr_web>
The Off-Facebook Activity tool is so intriguing largely because you can see how many sites are ratting you out to Facebook even if they don't have your Facebook account actually connected.
<abliss>
`export HOME=/var` seems to workaround the bug by skipping that codepath
<abliss>
is there some way to keep a dev grain alive forever even if i switch away from the browser tab?
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<ill_logic>
abliss: You convinced me to try the Matrix bridge :-D Hopefully it will be less noisy for y'all as I suspend my laptop. Fewer programs running at any rate.
<abliss>
LMK what you think. i fully expected to hate it but have been really enjoying it.
<abliss>
<ill_logic "abliss: You convinced me to try "> I kinda like the way it handles replies. Gracefully degrades to irc users, but is extra-nice for those of us on matrix
<ill_logic>
One weird thing I found is that NickServ got confused when I made an edit to a previous post (sort of by accident). So maybe it gracefully degrades by explicitly sending each edit?
<ill_logic>
Ah, yes. It resends it with an asterisk before.
<ocdtr_web>
The IRC display of your replies is pretty handy still, didn't know it was Matrix doing that.
<abliss>
hey, anyone know if it's possible to run `vagrant-spk dev` with https instead of http?
<ocdtr_web>
Especially if there are multiple convos colliding.
<ocdtr_web>
abliss: Like accessing localhost:6080 with HTTPS?
<abliss>
yeah... does sandcats offer https certs for local.sandstorm.io?
<ocdtr_web>
I can't imagine it *could*.
<abliss>
or do i have to stand up my own nginx reverse proxy and do letsencrypt and stuff
<ocdtr_web>
To do an HTTPS cert for local.sandstorm.io, every Sandstorm server would need to have the private key for it.
<abliss>
hm, yeah, the sandstorm shell requires the url bar to be 'local.sandstorm.io' so i can't really reverse-proxy+letsencrypt
<abliss>
would it be a big deal if the private key for the local.sandstorm.io cert were made public?
<ocdtr_web>
I am wondering if web browsers are chill with https://localhost and not caring about the cert validity, because that would be a silly thing to expect?
<abliss>
i guess i could self-sign a cert and manually turn off chrome's security... or even intsall my own authority... ugh
<ocdtr_web>
What's the need you're trying to address? Testing purposes?
<abliss>
yeah, various stuff just doesn't work without https anymore (e.g. the riot.im app, or any mixed-use from an https-hosted web page)
<ocdtr_web>
I knew there was a way to do something like that. (Though ugh, Chrome)
<ocdtr_web>
Be careful about getting me into a rant about the stupidity of HTTPS Everywhere and why it's a thing.
<abliss>
no need, i'm on the same page already :)
<ocdtr_web>
I don't even have to be trying to convince someone. I just vent about it sometimes.
<abliss>
if you feel the urge, go create a new empty room and do it there ;)
<ocdtr_web>
Good idea
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<isd>
abliss: the $HOME thing is a known issue with python; I think it's mentioned in the vagrant-spk docs somewhere. Maybe it should be more prominent
<abliss>
maybe the default launcher.sh should `export HOME=/VAR`
<isd>
I thing the uwsgi stack already does this?
<isd>
But I've definitely seen other tech stacks that work better with $HOME set; we should probably default it in in general. Maybe add it to the environment that spk init puts in the starter sandstorm-pkgdef.capnp
<isd>
Re: asking around about 1-click installs: I kinda would like to develop a turn-key way go from hardware to sandstorm without having to set up Linux first. While I think it's good for people to set up sandstorm on a VPS easily, (1) I want to support the "home server" setup well, (2) Having a full OS image available would probably make it an easier sell for folks like linode anyway, since they'd have to do less work for a
<isd>
1-click install, (3) we could also make an image available to end users, which would make setting it up on misc. hosts easier.
<isd>
As much as I hate OpenStack, if we had a standard vm image that you could use with that, some of the smaller cloud providers could implement a 1-click sandstorm thing really easily
<isd>
And I think doing that as part of the public project would be valuable, since I suspect most of the vps providers are going to be less likely to want to do all that work themselves and then also release it for others to use.
<isd>
Also, I think it would be good to wait until we actually have something to point to to show that we're attracting broader interest again, not just that a handful of us got excited and started hacking.
<ill_logic>
So, not even worth mentioning? Like, I guess my ideal image would be running into someone who works at Linode at a party and say "oh by the way... yeah give me your card, I'll let you know when we're ready to talk about it"
<ill_logic>
May be hard to have that same energy in a cold email
<isd>
Yeah, I think if you bump into someone at a party that's one thing, but sending emails implies a level of seriousness that I feel like we aren't necessarily ready for.
<ill_logic>
Okay cool. I think we're on the same page then.
<isd>
Like, certainly feel free to talk about it casually if the setting seems appropriate.
<ill_logic>
I'll note it on the Wekan item. Good to have our thoughts on it in one place.
<ill_logic>
So... what exactly is the alpha server? Is it closed to outsiders?
<isd>
I think folks who went in on the indiegogo campaign have access. I'm not one of them though; ocdtrekkie would know better.
<ill_logic>
It didn't stop me from signing in via email.
<isd>
I mean, sandstorm in general doesn't restrict logins. Unless you can create grains?
<ill_logic>
Ah there you go. Can't make new grains.
<ill_logic>
I can see my existing ones.
<isd>
I guess I'll just submit a pr with the blog post to sandstorm-website for kentonv to review.
<ill_logic>
Regarding alpha?
<ill_logic>
I mean, I think you're right, it's not letting me do anything beyond look at the grain I was invited to.
<isd>
Yeah, that's standard for boxes you don't have access to
<isd>
Lyre Calliope: Don't know your github handle, but the post mentions your email, so I want to make sure that you see it.
<ill_logic>
Are we concerned with style/grammar points on this blog post or just tone and content? I might have comments but I don't want to bit an unwelcomed nitpick.
<isd>
Clerical editing is definitely welcome.
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<CaptainCalliope>
<isd "Lyre Calliope: Don't know your g"> I try and keep my handle consistantly @captaincalliope everywhere.
<ocdtr_web>
It looks like alpha access was at the $256 tier of Indiegogo. Some people also were interested/involved prior to Indiegogo and had access added prior.
<CaptainCalliope>
Checking out the blog post!
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<isd>
Btw, I know some of you are in the Boston area (I think both abliss and Lyre Calliope ?). Is there any interest in meeting up in person, maybe get a local meetup going (there's a meetup.com group that was never super active, for which I'm an assistant organizer)?
<CaptainCalliope>
Totally. I was planning on bringing it up but it's been a hella busy month.
<isd>
Cool. If we can find some space maybe I can post an event for a meet & greet, and be ready to talk about various things depending on what people who show up are interested in.
<CaptainCalliope>
And while we plan that, want to meet up in person for lunch or something? I wasn't available the day you met up with Alex and René and just realized we haven't actually been face to face yet.
<isd>
Aha, can't say I'm surprised you know them.
<isd>
But yeah, we can do that.
<abliss>
I'm in NYC actually, but come up to Boston for a meetup.
<isd>
I know TimMc is in Boston.
<CaptainCalliope>
I have some feedback on the blog post, but I'm pretty braindead so I'll try and find some time tomorrow to write it up.
<CaptainCalliope>
The tldr, I think we should do a little more work on new contributor onboarding before this goes out.
<CaptainCalliope>
And I might end up doing some of that work while/instead of writing up some of that feedback. lol
<ocdtrekkie>
It's kinda cool that there's so many in a close area on the project.
<ocdtrekkie>
I wonder if that says something about people who met up in person being more attached to it.
<ocdtrekkie>
Someday it'd be cool if I could trek up there to join such a meetup.
<isd>
submodules are one part of git that is still somewhat baffling to me.
<isd>
I otherwise feel like I know the tool pretty well at this point.
<abliss>
yeah, submodules are pretty weird.
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