01:56 <kentonv> "A little less contrast" whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

01:57 <kentonv> "improve readability" how does making it harder to see improve readability? Aarghhh

01:59 <abliss> yeah it's weird, apparently a lot of people find high-contrast text unpleasant to read.

01:59 <abliss> i guess it's those same people who like to use their monitor's pixels to paint lots of whitespace around their text (instead of e.g. getting a monitor with a big white bezel)

02:01 <kentonv> I think there's a conflict between being pretty and being functional

02:01 <kentonv> lower contrast looks clean, soft, pleasant -- until you actually try to read the text

02:02 <JacobWeisz[m]> I definitely appreciate a slightly better font than Times New Roman on things. But yeah, grey on grey has never been my favorite.

02:02 <abliss> ew, what useragent defaults to times new roman?

02:02 <kentonv> don't they all?

02:02 <JacobWeisz[m]> I remember having to actually adjust the contrast settings on my monitor so that the lines on Google+'s UI appeared. All the greys just didn't differentiate at all the way it had been set.

02:03 <JacobWeisz[m]> Everything was just floating text in space.

02:03 <kentonv> as for line length... I don't like wasted space, but I also don't like 8000-pixel lines of text that wrap

02:04 <kentonv> TBH I sort of wish my browser window would automatically resize to the ideal width for whatever content I'm looking at

02:05 <JacobWeisz[m]> That sounds horrifying, especially if you have tabs.

02:05 <JacobWeisz[m]> (Though I rarely have more than three or four tabs open, I literally don't understand why people leave tabs open.)

02:05 <kentonv> yes having it change when switching tabs would be bad. I'm not sure how to solve that part.

02:05 <abliss> if people would quit styling their content so much, you could just pick a default font and a size that you like, then set your UA window to the appropriate width, then use the rest of your monitor for other stuff

02:06 <JacobWeisz[m]> That'd be nice.

02:06 <JacobWeisz[m]> Not gonna happen though, designers make too much money.

02:06 <kentonv> for content that's just structured text, that does sound great. For dynamic application UI it seems more complicated.

02:06 <JacobWeisz[m]> Imagine how many people would be out of work if you just presented default HTML tags for information.

02:08 <abliss> my mind reels at the sheer number of dollars spent on designing, implementing, and then advertising every single site's own personal implementation of "dark mode!" over the past year or two. as if users didn't have reverse-video options in their useragent for thirty years....

02:10 <abliss> also, i question how much we really need "dynamic application UI" beyond just manipulating stock browser widgets (buttons, checkboxes, etc) in the DOM...

02:11 <abliss> sorry, feeling crochety tonight for some reason.

02:21 <JacobWeisz[m]> I think far more angering than excitement about launching dark mode, is how "hard" it was for sites to implement dark mode, since in their mind it meant pixel perfect redesigning the entire website for it.

02:22 <JacobWeisz[m]> Because yeah, Windows Modern Apps, Phone, UWP, etc. has had system-wide dark mode for like over a decade. And Google just figured out how to do it with their search app.

02:23 <JacobWeisz[m]> It just shouldn't be that hard. (IMHO, that it's archived is Writ's only excuse for not including dark mode based on the prefers-color-scheme property that's newer than it.)

02:59 <isd> abliss: in fairness, I started it :P

03:01 <isd> kentonv: re: dynamic app UI, You could probably get pretty far by just wrapping more native widgets; <input>, <button> and friends are perfectly functional without styling

03:01 <isd> Somehow desktop UIs get by without all having different color schemes and fonts...

03:15 <kentonv> I don't care about color schemes and fonts, but I do care about placement and sizing

03:18 <kentonv> styling can also be used to draw your attention to the important things and de-emphasize unimportant details (without removing them entirely)

03:19 <isd> Yeah, for app development I would probably want to keep flexbox & grid around.

23:19 <abliss> pty update: i've plumbed through the ioctls, and initial tests are encouraging. i can at least get 'script -c /bin/stty' to show sane results. tmux doesn't work, because it manipulates process environ in a tricky way that ends up throwing out my FD mappings, but I have a patch which I think is reasonable to upstream that fixes it.