<bvernoux>
what a shame they have destroyed SMA & connector
<Degi>
I mean the connector itself on the thingie is fine but they couldve just unscrewed it
<bvernoux>
yes
<Degi>
Do they sell the loose wires separately?
<bvernoux>
It seems the guy selling such things do not know what is it and destroy connectors which cost lot of money
<bvernoux>
I have already seen that with some SA too
<azonenberg>
bvernoux: no i dont think that's what it is at all
<bvernoux>
destroying the front connectors
<Degi>
SA? Spectrum analyzer?
<bvernoux>
yes Spectrum Analyzer
<Degi>
Like the cables or the SMA/N/BNC itself?
<bvernoux>
yes ;)
<bvernoux>
also on VNA
<azonenberg>
a lot of organizations, especially in academia, need to use equipment until it breaks and then throw it out
<bvernoux>
it is even worse as they are tuned for it
<Degi>
the cables? Atl east thats easily fixable
<azonenberg>
they cannot, per stupid policies, give it away or sell it
<azonenberg>
if they need to retire it while it still works, it has to be destroyed
<Degi>
Oh thats where I got a bunch of stuff from
<bvernoux>
azonenberg, yes it is same for big company :(
<bvernoux>
they prefer to destroy than to sell
<Degi>
You can just fish working stuff from trash under physics building
<Degi>
Once I saw 3000 V battery
<azonenberg>
so power cords lopped off, etc is standard practice
<azonenberg>
I dont think this is carelessness, i think it's deliberate destruction and the seller dumpster-dived this
<bvernoux>
yes
<bvernoux>
it was the same at Safran DS
<bvernoux>
they have order to destroy
<azonenberg>
Which is nonsensical. I can understand zeroizing it, removing hard drives, etc
<Degi>
At my uni they arent allowed to sell and the equipment is carelessly dumped into the dumpster (sometimes typewriters) but often in good condition. Like this 520 MHz frequency counter had attachment cable, no scratches etc
<azonenberg>
most companies that sell products to DoD etc actually have a section in the manual describing how to wipe it before servicing or disposal
<azonenberg>
Degi: yeah i dont understand all of these wasteful practices
<azonenberg>
like yes it makes accounting a bit simpler as far as not needing to calculate how much you sold it for
<azonenberg>
but...
<Degi>
Sometimes they put the stuff indoors if its nice stuff and then write a mail to some dept
<Degi>
I think they arent allowed to sell cuz its bought with taxes
<azonenberg>
like i said, stupidity of policy
<azonenberg>
as a taxpayer, i would want to see the opposite
<bvernoux>
yes but I doubt that will change :(
<azonenberg>
public funds shall be spent as efficiently as possible, rather than taking more tax money to fund your facility
<azonenberg>
if you have serviceable equipment you no longer need, you are legally *obligated* to sell it to the highest bidder
<bvernoux>
yes it will be great policy
<azonenberg>
and use the proceeds of such sale preferentially, then tax/grant funding only when surplus resale funds are exhausted
<bvernoux>
and avoid at maximum to put things in trash
<azonenberg>
exactly
<bvernoux>
all my hw are old things ;)
<bvernoux>
except my Picoscope ;)
<bvernoux>
and my Soldering Station haha
<bvernoux>
the only bad things about old HW is they are big, loudy, heavy and I'm afraid it will fail each day
<bvernoux>
as there is no warranty at all and potentially it could be hard to repair ...
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<azonenberg>
But it's so cheap you can buy two and use one for spare parts for the other :D
<bvernoux>
but anyway still really better than new ones which are without any schematic ...
<Degi>
Poor TDS520, outdoing the SRAM battery by 15 years and now something is broke
<azonenberg>
that's what lain and monochroma did with their 5 GHz scopes (how many do you have total? two? three?)
<azonenberg>
Degi: i have no idea about PC interfacing capability on pre-Windows LeCroy gear
<Degi>
Hm...
<azonenberg>
any LeCroy running MAUI or X-Stream should work with scopehal
<bvernoux>
Degi, I think it is better to spend money on Rigol scope than this old obsolete 1GHz scope ;)
<Degi>
WEll okay
<Degi>
Meh maybe I
<bvernoux>
MSO5072
<Degi>
'll wail in indecisiveness till blondel is finished
<bvernoux>
you hack to 350MHz ;)
<azonenberg>
Degi: if you have a bit more budget, more recent secondhand lecroy gear is very readily available on ebay as well
<bvernoux>
it is 8GSPS
<bvernoux>
unbeatable for 909USD
<bvernoux>
FW is a bit buggy IIRC
<azonenberg>
i see a DDA-5005A (5 GHz bw, 20 Gsps realtime, 200 Gsps equivalent time) for $1950
<azonenberg>
monochroma got one for a bit less i think
<azonenberg>
those run windows xp iirc and are known to work with scopehal
<bvernoux>
Degi, take MSO5074 for 999USD it is better to have 4 chan
<Degi>
I see a broken one for 1.2 k
<bvernoux>
the only advantage of those Rigol MSO is they are fully hacked
<bvernoux>
so for hobby it is perfect
<Degi>
The 5005A seems rly nice but seems to come all from USA... So 2k for that vs 900 for rigol...
<bvernoux>
with all free options
<Degi>
Wait What I need to pay 587 USD entry fees...
<bvernoux>
Degi, Main issue is if you have any issue with those old obsolete scope it will cost more than 2K ;)
<Degi>
Good point, rigol would have 2 years warrantly
<bvernoux>
and with windowsXP ...
<bvernoux>
HDD will die ...
<Degi>
HDD?
<Degi>
Huh
<bvernoux>
I really think it is very risky to buy such old scope
<bvernoux>
and they have no option
<Degi>
Lol like the TDS520 with 5 year battery backed SRAM
<bvernoux>
yes the battery die and the things is not usable anymore as it loose calibration ...
<Degi>
Hm so 70 MHz MSO5072 can be hacked to 350 MHz?
<bvernoux>
yes and even more in theory ;)
<bvernoux>
it is 8GSPS ADC
<bvernoux>
200Mpoints also
<bvernoux>
all is SW
<Degi>
And 4 channels too?
<bvernoux>
take the 4 chan version as I think 2 chan have only 2 chan ;)
<bvernoux>
so 999USD ;)
<Degi>
Where do I buy that
<bvernoux>
for 4chan
<bvernoux>
it depends where you live
* azonenberg
didn't know 4chan sold oscilloscopes
<bvernoux>
from EU rigolna
<Degi>
Whas up with all these 2 channel scopes
* Degi
stacks 10 of blondel
<bvernoux>
2chan is too limited ;)
<Degi>
80 channel isnt :P
<bvernoux>
especially when 4chan cost just 80USD more
<azonenberg>
Lol
<bvernoux>
anyway I have an old RIGOL DS1102E with 2 Chan ;)
<bvernoux>
my 1st scope
<bvernoux>
and it still work nicely
<bvernoux>
for basic stuff ;)
<azonenberg>
My DS1102D failed a year or so ago
<azonenberg>
would turn on then randomly shut off, probably PSU issue
<azonenberg>
i gave it to somebody whitequark hooked me up with in seattle, no idea if she ever got it working or not
<bvernoux>
100MHz 1GSA/s with 2chan is clearly limited but it depends what you are doing ...
<azonenberg>
and yes that's what i'm looking forward to about BLONDEL. Having lots of slow channels i can use in combination with my higher speed scopes
<Degi>
Like the broken scope here has 500 MHz at 500 MS/s...
<bvernoux>
as a good point is to divide by 10
<bvernoux>
even if niquist say /2
<electronic_eel>
Degi: if you want to buy Rigol in Germany, go to batronix
<bvernoux>
it is better to have 10points ;)
<Degi>
2.5 should be enough with a brick wall filter
<Degi>
thx
<Degi>
Huh they have fancy pcb holders
<bvernoux>
yes or 250MHz but not more ;)
<Degi>
I mean the 500 MS/s scope actually seems to have 500 MHz, now its broke...
<bvernoux>
or doing sampling trick but it is not a scope
<bvernoux>
no
<bvernoux>
500MSPS is max 50MHz
<bvernoux>
some say it is ok to 100MHz
<Degi>
It can do ET sampling to 100 GS/s
<Degi>
But the actual ADC is 500
<bvernoux>
yes for ET sampling
<Degi>
Tbh in some cases it makes sense to have more bandwidth than sample rate, for example if you want to know the signal value accurately at a certain position
<bvernoux>
but it is not scope mode ;)
<Degi>
rigolna seems to be a bit cheaper...
<bvernoux>
check VAT price too
<Degi>
Well then its a raw adc idk
<bvernoux>
IIRC it is not included
<Degi>
Oh
<Degi>
Hm rigolna wants you to contact them for a quote if youre from not USA
<electronic_eel>
Degi: if you have some time and want to lower the price a bit, use the lowest-competitor-offer of batronix: search around a bit for any lower price offer than batronix in europe. then send them a link/screenshot of the offer and they will give you the same price
<electronic_eel>
I got my SA like 200 EUR lower because of that, there was a sellout offer at some dealer in sweden, I used that offer
<Degi>
In EU?
<electronic_eel>
and bought at the lower price at batronix
<Degi>
Its currently 962 € with VAT and 809 without
<bvernoux>
I doubt there is such offer for the MSO5000
<bvernoux>
but it is a good point
<Degi>
Everybody else is at 962 € too even conrad
<Degi>
Wait thats the 2 ch variant...
<bvernoux>
I want the RSA3000 for that price ;)
<electronic_eel>
na, forget the price search engines, you got to invest a bit of time to search for the smaller sellers
<bvernoux>
upgradable to 7.5GHz by SW ;)
<bvernoux>
Degi, the good things with the 70MHz version is probes are 350MHz ;)
<bvernoux>
as they have only 1 type of probes for all variant ;)
<Degi>
lol
<bvernoux>
so all the HW are identical ;)
<bvernoux>
I see batronix => € 1,069.81 incl. 19% VAT
<electronic_eel>
bvernoux: they might have just one type of probe, but this one type is shitty
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, it works up to 350MHz anyway it is a passive probe
<bvernoux>
why do you say they are shitty ?
<bvernoux>
compared to other brand I will say of course ;)
<Degi>
Hm 5074 is 1069 € with VAT on batronix, batterfly has it for 1068 €, arrow for 1018 but I think thats without VAT, eleshop.eu has it for 1050 € with protocol analysis bundle
<electronic_eel>
it works somehow, but attaching proper ground clips is not that easy. nearly no accessories. also high capacitance
<Degi>
Is protocol decoder bundle included in the hack?
<bvernoux>
it is 3 years warranty not 2 ;)
<bvernoux>
hehe
<bvernoux>
it is first time I see that
<electronic_eel>
I know some guy, I think he is called azonenberg or similar, he currently develops better probes ;)
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, ha yes of course ;)
<Degi>
1049 CHF which is 996 EUR on toppreise.ch but not sure if vat included
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, but for scope probe they are correct anyway of course they are not ultra low capacitance it is just standard probes
<bvernoux>
and Rigol does not have 50Ohm input by default ;)
<bvernoux>
not on their scope
<Degi>
Do they have selectable 50 ohm?
<electronic_eel>
the MSO5000 does not have 50 ohms?
<bvernoux>
I doubt even the MSO8000 have such feature
<electronic_eel>
I think they have, just the lower ones don't
<electronic_eel>
I disliked the standard rigol probes so much that I bought the RP5600A probes
<bvernoux>
as anyway all reseller shall have the offer with free bundle all options free
<bvernoux>
for serial decoders ...
<electronic_eel>
but a full set gets pricy
<bvernoux>
ha it is included too
<Degi>
Geez 400 bucks for a probe
<electronic_eel>
yes, now you know why I'm interested in azonenbergs passive probes
<Degi>
Indeed
<Degi>
Is that an active probe?
<electronic_eel>
no, passive 600MHz
<Degi>
lol
<electronic_eel>
now, go look what passive tek probes in that category cost
<Degi>
64 bucks for 200 MHz
<Degi>
Hm any upside to buying from batronix than eleshop?
<bvernoux>
amazing
<bvernoux>
Siglent have now a VNA up to 7.5GHz
<bvernoux>
a bit expensive >8K
<bvernoux>
last time i checked their VNA was limited to 3GHz
<electronic_eel>
Degi: I don't know eleshop, but bought several times from batronix. batronix was fast and nice to work with
<bvernoux>
the SVA10xxX have amazing spec too
<Degi>
Like on eleshop they have protocol decoder option and 3 years warraants
<electronic_eel>
also batronix is in germany, so lower shipping costs if you have to return something or similar
<electronic_eel>
Degi: if you see some better offer somewhere, batronix will match that
<Degi>
Even things like extra features?
<electronic_eel>
just send them the link or screenshot
<electronic_eel>
I think so
<Degi>
How do I do that? Click request offer?
<Degi>
Nvm they have options bundle too
<electronic_eel>
send them an email, add your postal address, and they will send you a full offer
<bvernoux>
does anyone have bought a Siglent SVA1032X ?
<Degi>
Nah I noticed that batronix actually has the better offer
<bvernoux>
It will be interesting to know if it is same HW vs the SVA1075X
<electronic_eel>
hmm, didn't they introduce the 3ghz version first and the 7.5ghz version came later?
<bvernoux>
yes
<electronic_eel>
that would indicate that the hardware is different
<bvernoux>
ha ok Dynamic Range is a bit low
<electronic_eel>
otherwise they would have started with the 7.5
<bvernoux>
between 60dB to 90dB ;)
<bvernoux>
so less than my HP 8753D ;)
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, I suspect they have designed first the 7.5Ghz then the do different version and all is SW ;)
<bvernoux>
it is more economic for the production cost ...
<bvernoux>
it is the same for other vendor like Agilent ;)
<electronic_eel>
from a marketing standpoint this is not how you do it. you release with a big bang and the top model to get all the pr
<bvernoux>
SA E440xB
<bvernoux>
they have same hw on lot of part
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, yes it is why I ask as maybe the 7.5Ghz is different
<bvernoux>
woo sweep points are very limited
<bvernoux>
101 to 751 !!
<Degi>
huh?
<bvernoux>
I always use 1601 ;)
<bvernoux>
yes on the VNA ;)
<electronic_eel>
I think they started with the 3ghz. they probably planned to do the 7.5, but couldn't get it to work from the start. then they released the 3ghz to get to market fast
<bvernoux>
I'm reading spec of SVA10xxX
<Degi>
RAM is pricy
<bvernoux>
Degi, it does not consume lot of RAM for 1601 pts ;)
<electronic_eel>
later they improved their hw/sw so they now reach 7.5
<bvernoux>
it is something like 30KB ;)
<bvernoux>
in worst case
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, yes I suspect that too
<monochroma>
i replaced the hard drives in both of my DDA-5005s with SSDs, you can still download the software from lecroy and such
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, anyway the dynamic range is not amazing
<Degi>
Hmm I should ground my shelf when I get this scope...
<bvernoux>
yes buy anti ESD stuff
<bvernoux>
it is always a good things ;)
<Degi>
Its kinda EMP deluxe when I play around with HV stuff on the ground floor..
<Degi>
I should get an ESD mat... Any recommendations? And any recommendations for a 19 V isolated PSU? My laptop PSU has some big voltage swing on the output relative to ground
<bvernoux>
electronic_eel, their SVA1075X is clearly not as good a PicoVNA
<bvernoux>
and more expensive
<bvernoux>
will be interesting to see a teardown of PicoVNA
<Degi>
Hm I kinda wanna design a bunch of probes...
<azonenberg>
Degi: if you wanna try your hand at a DC-100 MHz active probe, we need one for BLONDEL
<Degi>
With 50 ohm output? Specific input impedance or "as high as possible"?
<azonenberg>
"as high as possible" input, 50 ohm single ended output
<azonenberg>
for initial rev focus on getting the probe design itself to work and just run off a bench supply
<azonenberg>
we can make the fancy usb power version later
<Degi>
We can stick a betavoltaic into it
<Degi>
Is the output swing important? Should it be +- 5 V or is +- 1.25 V also ok?
<azonenberg>
I'd target lower, we dont want to saturate the input
<azonenberg>
+/- 1 give or take a bit is probably about right, we can run the frontend at ~unity gain then
<Degi>
The OPA859 seems kinda nice if +- 1 V input range is OK lol. Though I guess some passives should come before that
<Degi>
Nvm OPA656 looks better
<Degi>
Is there some input range we wanna have? Is +- 2.5 V good?
<Degi>
Or more like +- 1 kV?
<azonenberg>
I'd target significantly wider. We will probably want an attenuator on the input to lower loading. Say +/- 10V at least operating range, with damage threshold of at least +/- 20?
<Degi>
Hmm k. Any suggestions for R?
<Degi>
10 GOhm?
<azonenberg>
1M or even 100K input impedance is probably fine
<electronic_eel>
+- 10V operating range? that sounds borderline unusable to me. you can't even use it on a regular 12v supply then
<electronic_eel>
more like +- 50v to cover most common low voltage electronics stuff, including 48v supplies
<azonenberg>
ok that works too
bvernoux has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Degi>
Hmm
<Degi>
We can have 20 0V
<azonenberg>
If we are going to have operating ranges above touch-safe levels then we need to start thinking about proper insulation etc
<azonenberg>
rather than some 3d printed plastic
<Degi>
Well we can advertise it as 30 V
<azonenberg>
I have no problem with designing a board capable of wider range, like you said we can always claim lower specs
<azonenberg>
yeah it will be controlled by the probe mcu
<azonenberg>
if we have a button there, we'll need synchronization between the mcus bidirectionally
<azonenberg>
so the probe can tell the scope you pushed the button and push the config to the gui
<electronic_eel>
yes, why not? we plan to have usb there, don't we?
<azonenberg>
yeah i just mean it will slightly complicate firmware
<azonenberg>
not a reason to not do it
<azonenberg>
just a design consideration
<electronic_eel>
I think planning the probes to be of use without BLONDEL on a conventional scope will increase sales significantly
<azonenberg>
yeah agreed
<azonenberg>
i think inexpensive high quality probes and accessories for existing scopes will sell well
<electronic_eel>
exactly
<azonenberg>
And will be something we can use to fund R&D of the scopes, which *we* really want to be doing
<azonenberg>
but we have to pay for that somehow :p
<Degi>
Hm for universal, we could have a probe power & control hub
<azonenberg>
yeah we'd need to definitely have a standalone host to provide power etc
<Degi>
Variable gain: Is it OK to add after input stage or should input stage components be variable?
<azonenberg>
Ideally input stage variable, but i'm not sure. Havent put much thought into the active probe
<electronic_eel>
variable gain on the input stage is better. maybe mux in different values?
<Degi>
If input stage 1:1 required, the input C will be several pF
<Degi>
Like 2 or so
<electronic_eel>
hmm 1:1, not sure if we need that
<Degi>
Also each probe would have a varicap for compensation for production variations
<electronic_eel>
if you really need very low voltage low freq stuff you are much better off with a special high gain probe
<Degi>
Hm k
<Degi>
We can do 10:1 and 100:1?
<azonenberg>
That sounds reasonable
<azonenberg>
Just ensure that if you set 10:1 it won't be damaged by out-of-range inputs
<electronic_eel>
maybe something in between? lik 10:1 and 50:1?
<azonenberg>
clipping is ok, dying is not
<Degi>
I think Ill usea second OP amp for that then
<electronic_eel>
you mean a 2nd stage or switching the one for the first stage?
<Degi>
A second stage tbh
<electronic_eel>
hmm, if you attenuate 100:1 it won't be easy to get low signals back out of the noise
<Degi>
hmh not sure
<Degi>
Like how much noise do we have here vs rest of analog chain?
<electronic_eel>
this is just a few 100 mhz, there should be muxes that work for that freq range
<Degi>
Meh I can just put a relay there
<electronic_eel>
relay always works
<electronic_eel>
just takes some space
<Degi>
At 10:1 we'd need I think 500 fF input capacitance
<azonenberg>
So here's the question, what bw do we want to target with this?
<Degi>
Not sure if a mux is suitable because the low side capacitance would be 5 pF
<Degi>
100 MHz?
<azonenberg>
more might be good if we can do it without much effort
<Degi>
Idk we can try
<electronic_eel>
would be nice if it work for DUDDELL too
<Degi>
Thats 350 MHz?
<electronic_eel>
the scope is planned for 250, but the probe should go a bit higher
<azonenberg>
Yeah. I want something for ZENNECK too that can do lower speeds as well, although i guess it's probably OK to have a low bw active probe and then the high bw passive probe
<electronic_eel>
I think targeting something like the rigol crowd, with the 350mhz MSO5000ers, would make sense from a business perspective
<azonenberg>
Makes sense
<azonenberg>
But it has to be demonstrably better than oem passive probes
<azonenberg>
(and work with whatever inputs those scopes have)
<electronic_eel>
yes, of course. I think they have 50 ohms
<electronic_eel>
urgh. just checked the datasheet: the rigol MSO5000 just have 1Meg, no 50 ohms option