marcan changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | General project discussion | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<modwizcode> Interseting they talk about kernel support for Rosetta.
<modwizcode> I used to be super interested in xnu because of it's microkernel origins and I think the way mach does some things is pretty clever. But like the codebase is a sort of impenetrable mess
<davidrysk[m]> > CAVEAT: the kmutil configure-boot process will only work on the first macOS volume. If you have multiple bootable volumes, you will only be able to boot a custom kernel on the first installation.
<modwizcode> Is that even right? I read that and that sounds wrong?
<davidrysk[m]> it's definitely not intended behaior
<modwizcode> Isn't marcan's setup using a second volume?
<davidrysk[m]> I thought it was
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<davidrysk[m]> also uhh still no kernel symbols for t8101 in this KDK
<modwizcode> What's the t8101?
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<davidrysk[m]> the t8103 is the M1, the t8101 is the A14 but Apple labels the kernel for the M1 "t8101"
<davidrysk[m]> since it's compatible with both
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<marcan> davidrysk[m]: that's a bug and it's not the "first"
<marcan> it's "some order"
<marcan> it works fine for me on the second volume on both machines; I think I got lucky
<marcan> I'm not sure if it's fixed in 11.2 final yet; it might
<marcan> I should try it
<davidrysk[m]> marcan: so is Apple's engineer wrong? :D
<marcan> they are :)
<marcan> as to the specifics of the bug anyway
<marcan> it might be the "first discovered" or "first in UUID order" or "first according to some random hashtable implementation"
<marcan> it's definitely not the first on disk
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<modwizcode> It seems like an odd bug to have.
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<dhewg> most bugs are
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<klaus> i understand asahi linux is at the very first stage of implementation, but i wanted to ask: in the long run, is something like rosetta2 planned for it ? how will it be possible to run x86_64 programs inside asahi linux ? (with reasonable speed and gfx passthrough)
<j`ey> klaus: qemu!
<klaus> j`ey : is qemu working the way i described ? (good speed and gfx passthrough)
<never_released> qemu isn't a nice answer though...
<never_released> klaus: no.
<klaus> otherwise any emu would have been a valid answer, like bosch and others..
<never_released> you will not have graphics working with a user-mode Linux x86_64 -> arm64 compatibility layer today
<never_released> because you'll need a second ioctl32 interface for that
<never_released> or a very heavy hack
<never_released> don't worry, people are working on it
<klaus> never_released : really ? that is good to hear
<never_released> klaus: yeah, as part of the FEX project
<klaus> i can see many cases where the ability of running x86_64 code from inside a native arm64 OS is desirable.
<klaus> thanks for the link, i go read that
<klaus> hmm so cpu instruction translation is being worked on, but you were saying no gfx passthrough ? does that mean programs that run through fex will be term only, or just no gfx hardware acceleration ? (software rendering )
<dhewg> there's also https://github.com/ptitSeb/box86 which some ppl use to run wine x86 on their arm boxen
<never_released> dhewg: box86 isn't sustainable
<never_released> and is useless on m1
<never_released> (it translates x86 32-bit -> 32-bit arm)
<j`ey> > Box86 is useless on 64-bit only systems
<dhewg> yeah, i know, but still, some ppl run it successfully
<never_released> yeah, on 32-bit systems
<never_released> on 64-bit box86 won't get you anywhere
<never_released> it's a nice approach though, with thunking to use native libraries for tons of stuff
<dhewg> if you install a 32bit userland it'll work there too
<dhewg> but yeah, not that clean and nice
<never_released> dhewg: M1 does *not* have ARMv7 support in hardware
<never_released> good luck
<klaus> asahi linux won't be able to run arm32 bit softs ? like on x64 users have ability to run x86 code through multilib ?
<never_released> klaus: the hardware doesn't support ARMv7 code exec
<never_released> it's gone
<klaus> never_released hmm
<dhewg> oh hehe
<dhewg> ok, i've seen reports of other aarch64 users running that, but if that's the case that onviously won't help on m1
<never_released> yeah those added aarch32 libs
<dhewg> yeah
<dhewg> still interesting, some are even using that with an amd gpu and using box86 with gallium nine
<never_released> yep, and you can't mechanically build a 32 <-> 64 thunking layer
<never_released> so the approach there is a dead end sadly
<dhewg> yeah m1 yeah
<never_released> not even just the M1
<never_released> the Cortex-A78 successor, Matterhorn is the last Cortex-A big core with ARMv7 code exec
<never_released> Makalu, the gen after that, can no longer run AArch32 code
<klaus> i understand it's very early to talk about all that, but it's interesting so start planning early too so i'm voicing concern about it..the ability to run x86_64 from inside asahi linux would be a must have .. just like macos does it's rosetta2.. they made it quite nicely, wine for example runs fast..
<j`ey> klaus: it's a separate topic really
<dhewg> yeah, that's a long term dead end indeed
<klaus> i understand it's a separate topic
<klaus> you're right
<klaus> just as a future user i'm thinking about what i'll probably need :)
<dhewg> for wine there was also another translation project, "hangover" iirc?
<never_released> dhewg: Hangover depends on an external JIT
<never_released> which can be Qemu or FEX today
<never_released> it doesn't include its own x86->arm JIT
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<dhewg> haven't really followed that as i don't have a use case myself
<dhewg> but that works with fex today? nice
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<klaus> fex looks good
<klaus> thanks for telling
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<opticron> maybe we need a wiki page linked in the topic regarding Rosetta2 and how that functionality relates to Asahi Linux and other projects
<opticron> there seems to be a high level of conflation between the M1 macs and magically running binaries from other arches
<opticron> the direct equivalent would be running linux x86[_64] binaries on the M1, but that never seems to be what people are asking about
<opticron> (and that is mostly unnecessary since you're just pulling things from package repos or compiling locally)
<never_released> opticron: it is _far_ from unnecessary
<never_released> my arm64 Linux systems all run at least some x86 apps
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<klaus> there's a reason why macos and windows both offer to translate and run x86_64 apps on amr
<klaus> *arm
<klaus> i gave wine as one example but there's many use cases
<klaus> i have to agree with never_released here, it is desirable and useful
<opticron> I didn't say it wasn't desirable or useful
<klaus> we all agree then :)
<opticron> my issue is that apple says "M1 macs can run x86 code" and so it seems like the general takeaway is that it's a feature of the M1 hardware
<opticron> it just sets an unreasonable base expectation for the Asahi Linux project
<opticron> never_released, if you don't mind me asking, what kinds of things do you run as x86 binaries on arm64 linux machines?
<opticron> my workflow is entirely devoid of non-native binaries
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<never_released> opticron: Microsoft Teams, Zoom notably
<never_released> the browser versions just don't cut it
<opticron> ah, that makes sense
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<Fanfwe> Apple just released final Big Sur 11.2
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<roxfan> "just"?
<marcan> here's a new toy, before I go to sleep :) https://github.com/AsahiLinux/macvdmtool
<marcan> you can get a serial console and use m1n1 proxyclient with just another M1 device and a normal type C cable
<j`ey> :O
<j`ey> marcan: it *has* to be M1 to M1?
<marcan> yes
<j`ey> how come?
<sven> nice :)
<marcan> j`ey: because only the M1s have this feature as far as I know
<marcan> the VDM stuff may or may not work on some Intel macs, but I'm pretty sure the serial console won't
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<bastilian> marcan: nice! Does the target M1 need to be in DFU already or is there any other requirement to start a console, or is it basically just "plug and play"?
<marcan> no requirement
<marcan> you can literally hard reboot it if it's in macos
<bastilian> Sweet! Awesome! Thank you!
<marcan> obviously to actually *get* anything on serial you need to have installed m1n1; iBoot and macOS won't speak serial by default (but if you reduce security and tweak the nvram you can get macOS debug spew on serial)
<marcan> the remote reboot stuff is super handy for a fast test cycle
<marcan> just one command chain to reboot, chainload a new m1n1 and/or kernel, etc
<marcan> no need to hold down the power button for ages
<marcan> there is also a command to go into DFU mode
<marcan> it's the same as that `areboot` thing I've been doing on my streams with the arduino/USB-PD rig
<marcan> (the regular reboot that is, I wasn't using DFU)
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<bastilian> Cool! I was just waiting for this tool to start testing and playing around, without having to build a USB-PD cable!
<marcan> I figured enough people would have two of them for this to be useful :)
<bastilian> Truth be told, I did get a second M1, because I hoped this would work.
<marcan> ha :D
<marcan> glad I could deliver then :)
<Emantor> I like the disclaimer.
<marcan> I am barely a macos user (as of late) and *definitely* not a macos programmer
<marcan> (I suspect that will have to change pretty soon...)
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<davidrysk[m]> marcan: is there any point testing this on a T2 Mac?
<roxfan> those are probably easier to get right now
<Shiz> "
<Shiz> I have no idea what I'm doing with IOKit and CoreFoundation -marcan"
<Shiz> lmao
<davidrysk[m]> IOCreatePlugInInterfaceForService fails
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<bastilian> david.rysk: i think the T2/Intel machines do not have the serial component.
<davidrysk[m]> bastilian: how does the serial component display itself in the ioreg tree?
<bastilian> david.rysk: On the M1s I found it by just looking for uart or "serial-console" the same or a similar entry isn't there on T2/Intel machines.
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<davidrysk[m]> okay, that was user error. It sees the device, it sees the M1 Mac, but unlocking fails.
<bastilian> You mean you can establish a connection from an Intel -> M1?
<davidrysk[m]> it's in APP mode
<davidrysk[m]> when the Intel and M1 are connected, it sees the M1 in APP mode\
<davidrysk[m]> but it does not appear that changing modes works
<davidrysk[m]> the reset command (Gaid) does work though :)
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<Glanzmann> marcan: Perfect, I order a new mac.
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