sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<petertodd>
nicolagreco: you can prove publishing of anything you want; proving publication of a digest is probably not useful, but proving publication of a message with a specific digest may be very useful
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<yoleaux>
@kanzure Right, so why would you do that via a lot rather than a key-value merkle tree? Latter *constrains* so log2(n) proof. (@petertoddbtc, in reply to tw:808709326105935873)
<kanzure>
petertodd: i think we messed up somewhere. you're talking about the size of the merkle proof?
<kanzure>
unless s/lot/list
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<Taek>
petertodd: with client-side validation, how do you deal with the fact that combining outputs tends to cause exponential blowup in the proof size?
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<kanzure>
pruning
<kanzure>
and caching can help in some cases, especially for sufficiently old sufficiently shared history
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<yoleaux>
@kanzure Remember that I'd what you're publishing is committed via a k-v tree, you're actually publishing multiple publications at once. (@petertoddbtc, in reply to tw:808710975213936641)
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<kanzure>
if you were willing to make offline cold storage have a perpetual fee, you could have a client-side validation scheme where you need proofs for every block that you did not participate (in other words, you need to be online), and when you are offline for a stretch of blocks, the value of your coins diminishes according to some schedule
<kanzure>
this would be for a block data structure where you just have a merkle root and no list of participating pubkeys
<kanzure>
the reason for the fee is to offset the consequences of double spending--- someon can withhold a merkle inclusion proof for a block, claiming "i was offline so therefore i didn't make a transaction" --- so either they were offline or they were double spending (withholding the spend from you)
<kanzure>
if someone is double spending, you have an inflation of the money supply. if the output says 10 BTC and there's 10 blocks, maybe the coins are now only worth 9 BTC (or it could be some other decay rate-- perhaps exponential or something). so you could double spend after 10 blocks, sure, but your 10 BTC should be considered increasingly less valuable because the chances of you withholding ol...
<kanzure>
...d spend information goes up
<kanzure>
without this client-side consensus rule, the only other rule you have available is "if someone gives you a transaction history graph with two double spends, you must reject the coins and consider them invalid" (which means that there might be persistent competing fraudulent coin histories running around throughout society-- which is extremely problematic)
<kanzure>
s/with two double spends/with a double spend
<kanzure>
with a cold storage fee rate, the other problem that you have is that small miners become undesirable because everyone who's online wont be able to do a transaction (and thus they will lose the value of their coins over time if everyone was a small miner-- unable to handle the bandwidth of everyone's coins for each block)
<kanzure>
with long block times, multiple merkle roots per block (constructed by anyone not just the actual miner), and with a list of pubkeys per block, you could have a system where you can choose to not pay the pee for inclusion in the pubkey list even knowing that the value of your coins will be degraded (it might be less than the price of the fee for inclusion in the pubkey list)... i guess that'...
<kanzure>
...s backwards, if you have super small value utxos, it's not very helpful for their value to be eaten up over time making it even more difficult for you to pay a high fee to get included in a pubkey list in a future block heh
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<Taek>
What happens if I intetionally keep someone offline?