sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<uiuc-slack>
<utsav> i'm not sure if anyone followed Enigma (and the hype) around, but the website is now down http://enigma.media.mit.edu/
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<btcdrak>
utsav: I think it was moved to a new domain enigma.co
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<uiuc-slack>
<utsav> ah
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<nsh>
'Solve Trust with Math Instead of Contracts' and other false dichotomies
<kanzure>
solve trust by removing all humans from the face of the planet
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<dgenr8>
solve trust by real-time flawless understanding of entire codebase and execution environment
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<nicolagreco>
amiller_: I am reading c0c0 right now
<nicolagreco>
what is funny is that in Italian zero-knowledge is sometime abbreviated with c0 which means conoscenza zero
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<kanzure>
Taek: so.... in a block data structure scheme where the only contents is a merkle root, you can't use confirmations to check safety of receiving some coins-- you have to spend some tiny portion and hope that it becomes economically useful (probably best way to do this is tumbling/mixing?) and see whether anyone generates a fraud proof for you. instead of waiting for a number of blocks, you ...
<kanzure>
...wait for a number of 'child transactions' and a giant branching tree to develop in the economy.
<Taek>
definitely not a fan of anything that relies on fraud proofs for validity
<kanzure>
also, if the network and economy is highly partitioned, then this is highly vulnerable unless you are checking TLS certs or something (by which i mean... attestation from known entities that certain double spends have not been seen.)
<kanzure>
well, the validity is not defined by fraud proos
<Taek>
their absense is not a guarantee though, right?
<kanzure>
right, so to get a guarantee, you have to spend immediately
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<kanzure>
you go straight to this giant mixer that /everyone/ participates in
<Taek>
oh
<Taek>
hmm
<kanzure>
and someone will spot the fraud. it's like an unconfirmed transaction until either (1) someone spots the fraud, or (2) it reaches a certain depth of 'confirmation'.
<kanzure>
like i said, you can't use block depth as confirmations heh
<kanzure>
block depth can at most only be used for coinbase maturity of subsidy/minting
<kanzure>
if the economy isn't partitioned, and you somehow spend to 10% of the economy, and if there's some technical means for you to hear back from any of them if they have a fraud proof, then that seems like a reasonable way to know whether you should consider yourself to have received money.
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<kanzure>
there's lots of sybil and DoS problems here as i pointed out, which is why i mentioned attestation as a useful element to this scheme
<kanzure>
for example, when you join the network, you would join by connecting to at least one friend (same as you join bitcoin now-- you need to connect to at least 1 honest node)
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<kanzure>
i think this is conceptually similar to the 'offline' outsourceable channel monitoring that lightning does
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<kanzure>
or really, the thing to do is to double spend it immediately to a bajillion other people, and then collect all the resulting fraud proofs, and check that all the fraud proofs are only because of your attempt to re-spend so many times heh
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