sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gmaxwell> I wish this were a joke, but BU developers are announcing they've solved the cost-of-node-operation problem...
<gmaxwell> You pay them $10, and they'll start a "node" for you on digital ocean with whatever string you want in the useragent field.
<gmaxwell> and both Peter_R and deadalnix are describing it as a solution to the problem that nodes are costly to operate.
<gmaxwell> "It shows that the team is focused on solving user's problem. If running a node is too hard/too expensive, then this is a solution to make it simpler/cheaper." "this is addressing the problem that some people face, namely that running a node is too expensive and/or complicated." "BU creates service to allow even non-technical users to cheaply and easily run their own nodes"
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<gmaxwell> (I characterized it as asking for donations for a sybil attack)
<sipa> You can't outsource trust.
<gmaxwell> sipa: you're obviously not focused on solving user's problems.
<gmaxwell> (the bigger thing is that if people are okay with someone else running their nodes, they can just use them, they don't need to pay anyone!)
<gmaxwell> But the BU people are characterizing this as "run their own nodes" -- it's inexplicable.
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<kanzure> how is centralized trust a user problem? i thought there were already many centralized services for payments.
<sipa> kanzure: BU people want to run nodes obviously, because that's how they influence consensus (even if nobody even notices if that node gets forked off the network)
<sipa> so, to solve that user problem, it needs to be cheap to run nodes
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<renlord> if that's the case I could pay gmaxwell so I can tether my SPV node to his for a much lower price -- maybe $1/month?
<renlord> s/his/his full node/
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<adiabat> I think one of the issues is that people think a VPS is "their" computer
<adiabat> I've seen exchanges and the like running nodes, with wallets, on AWS
<adiabat> many people in startups I've talked to, CEOs / CTOs have argued that AWS and the like are more secure than running a physical machine locally. The BU nonsense is consistent with that thinking anyway.
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<peter_> What you're missing Greg is that people aren't adopting nodes for security--SPV is already secure. They are adopting nodes because it allows them to voice their preferences in a way that gets noticed (e.g., on nodecouter)
<peter_> This is win-win for us because big-block miners also want a stronger back-bone of nodes that will propagate 1MB+ blocks.
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<peter_> And for the record, nodes aren't particularly costly to operate today as demonstrated, nor would it be a problem if they became more costly to operate tomorrow.
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<peter_> adoptanode.com
<mryandao> peter_: it seems like you've just confirmed gmaxwell's suggestion that people are in fact adopting nodes to mount a sybil attack.
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<peter_> mryandao: bitcoin is governed by proof-of-work, not proof-of-node.
<peter_> I think what will happen on August 1st will make that clear.
<peter_> Greg simply doesn't understand Bitcoin's consensus mechanism.
<mryandao> peter_: you don't seem to understand bitcoin. Might I point you to the whitepaper Satoshi wrote
<mryandao> maybe after a good number of readings, you'd be sufficiently enlightened to voice your contributions here.
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<peter_> You must be referring to the one that Cobra re-wrote to be more inline with BS/Core dogma.
<peter_> Sorry, I'm more interested in the vision of Bitcoin as a peer-to-peer electronic cash system.
<mryandao> peter_: you had a typo there I think, you meant _centralized_ electronic cash system.
<mryandao> which none of here find interesting whatsoever.
<pigeons> i'll just use paypal's payment nodes for even cheaper and fater than bitcoin then
<pigeons> "SPV is already secure" without mentioning under what specific assumptions is probably a troll
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<kanzure> "Zero-knowledge contingent payments revisited: Attacks and payments for services" http://stevengoldfeder.com/papers/ZKCSP.pdf
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<fluffypony> how not to do peer discovery: https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/885511114041294853
<fluffypony> sorry wrong room, thought this was -offtopic
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<contrapumpkin> has someone already come up with a scheme for distinct spendable donation addresses? You see a lot of websites soliciting bitcoin donations but they suffer from address reuse. Much cooler would be some way for the site owner to spend the coins without donors or other web visitors being able to correlate donations
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<kanzure> have the web server return a unique address on each load. also, use HTTPS.
<contrapumpkin> oh sure, I meant in a way that didn't require the server to store your private keys
<contrapumpkin> sorry
<contrapumpkin> feels related to deterministic wallets, I guess
<kanzure> web servers should never store private keys.
<kanzure> it's completely unnecessary.
<contrapumpkin> yeah I know :P so I'm asking how to generate fresh donation addresses without the webserver being privy to private keys (not just storing them)
<contrapumpkin> okay cool, thanks
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<fluffypony> contrapumpkin: the server can generate new addresses from the Master Public Key in Electrum's scheme
<fluffypony> No need for privkeys
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<sipa> contrapumpkin: sounds like you're asking is perhaps something like stealth addresses?
<sipa> contrapumpkin: which use ECDH to derive a new pubkey at sending time
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<fluffypony> FYI, we've opened a public channel for the Monero Research Lab here on Freenode, at #monero-research-lab
<fluffypony> all welcome, while the subject matter is primarily focused on theoretical ideas for Monero there's also obviously a lot of overlap
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<kanzure> you didn't like the bridge?
<fluffypony> it just made it tricksy
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