sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
EarlyGrey has quit [Quit: strawberry dough nuts]
sausage_factory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
intcat has quit [Quit: intcat]
blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
intcat has quit [Client Quit]
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Client Quit]
CheckDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
sausage_factory has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sausage_factory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sausage_factory has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
CoinHeavy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
BashCo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
deusexbeer has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryanofsky has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.4 - http://znc.in]
Noldorin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
HostFat_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
HostFat has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
BashCo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
HostFat_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
EarlyGrey has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sn0wmonster has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CoinHeavy has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
iddo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sn0wmonster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
Joseph__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
kenshi84 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
DrOlmer has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
DrOlmer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Logicwax has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Logicwax has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
BashCo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Lamby_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ONEE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
kenshi84 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
BashCo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
HalfTorsoDeluxe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
thrmo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
prime_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
HalfTorsoDeluxe is now known as thrmo
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
DrOlmer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
deusexbeer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
daszorz2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
daszorz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Joseph__ is now known as NewLiberty
NotLamby_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NotLamby_ has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
Lamby_ is now known as Guest23197
Guest23197 has quit [Killed (weber.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))]
windsok has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
windsok has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has quit [Client Quit]
coredump_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
negatratoron has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_EarlyGrey_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
earlygrey-- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GreyEarl has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Fukoko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
EarlyGrey has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
_EarlyGrey_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
earlygrey-- has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
GreyEarl has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Fukoko has quit [Quit: Leaving]
EarlyGrey has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Client Quit]
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
daszorz2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tucenaber has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure> there's no inclusion proof for a blockhash and a claimed transaction merkle root, right?
<kanzure> oh wait.
<kanzure> header hash, not block hash. confusing naming convention we got here :-).
<sipa> sure there is; it's called a block header :p
<kanzure> yes but why do we call it a blockhash instead of a block header hash.
<sipa> i just see the block header as the top-level structure of a block
<kanzure> if the transaction list was included in the header, in addition to its merkle root, then there would be a much stronger incentive to not hide transactions in gigabyte blocks (because to evaluate the nonce/pow you would have to check the whole thing).
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<kanzure> i know.
<sipa> what do you mean by transaction list?
<kanzure> content committed to by hashMerkleRoot
CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa> i don't understand how that is different from the hashMerkleRoot
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<kanzure> there are some not-quite-SPV clients that seem to evaluate PoW strength of the block, and then accept the hashMerkleRoot, without knowing whether the block was received/accepted by a node that actually checked all the transactions. the minimum requirement to know that the transactions were checked is to have a proof like "to evaluate the PoW you need all the transaction data itself".
<kanzure> having the data is not a proof that they were checked/validated, of course. but it's a step in the right direction.
<sipa> ah, i see
<kanzure> having the data is, however, a requirement before even considering validation.
<sipa> that would undermine the advantage of using a merkle structure in the first place
<sipa> as the only advantage that gives you is the ability to prove inclusion of a specific entry without showing the whole thing
<kanzure> the value of PoW is anti-replay, only way to know is to have that actual data... if pow is being accepted without ensuring an anti-replay property, then acceptance is sorta broken.
<kanzure> (in full nodes, the anti-replay rule is checked of course.)
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<kanzure> is there a non-pseudoSPV use for that particular merkle root?
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
uvarovserge has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime__ has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
<kanzure> with that sort of change, you could ensure that only clients with enough resources to verify PoW strength would also be clients with enough resources to verify that all spends are inserted only once. or at least, the computational resources for that verification should be within the same order of magnitude as receiving(bandwidth) or hashing(time/computation) the data.
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
oleksiyp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Client Quit]
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
prime_ has quit [Client Quit]
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
prime_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
prime_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
oleksiyp has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
daszorz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CheckDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
oleksiyp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tucenaber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tucenaber has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dyaheon has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Dyaheon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
daszorz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
daszorz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
oleksiyp has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
itsme_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rmwb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Apostolos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coredump_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tiagotrs has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Apostolos has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Noldorin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
gnusha has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
jrayhawk has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
ybit has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
wumpus has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]