sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<oleganza>
Seems like BIP91 is very close to be activated (bit 4), but still 45% of blocks signal segwit (bit 1). Does this mean, BIP91-signalling miners are idiots ready to orphan half of their own blocks, or does it mean, they don't run btc1, but only signal BIP91 for lulz?
<gmaxwell>
oleganza: leeroy jenkins!!!!
<midnightmagic>
least i have chicken
<gmaxwell>
(it's possible that they're planning on turning on bit1 at the last minute, to avoid some kind of basically impossible outcome where bit1 activates but not bit4... but considering that virtually all miners engage in fake signaling this seems like playing with fire to me)
<gmaxwell>
at least BIP-91 was changed to have a quieting period... the earlier version in 'btc1's codebase went instantly to enforcement.
<gmaxwell>
so they'll have about 2.5 days to turn bit 1 on.
<gmaxwell>
because of the high incidence of fake versionbit signaling, all of this is fairly risky for miners and the network.
<gmaxwell>
it's perfectly plausable that the enforcement point is reached but a supermajority of the hashpower doesn't actually enforce because its been fake signaling and spy mining.
<gmaxwell>
and there is a very limited window where that can be fixed without creating large funds loss risk if that starts happening.
<gmaxwell>
(other than being fixed by abandoning bip-91 of course)
<oleganza>
if there is really asicboosting going on, bringing attention to bip91 and then sabotaging it seems like a great way to delay segwit till next year.
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<gmaxwell>
oleganza: there are varrious theories that some miners want to just stall these improvements; asicboost being one... but another is simply that they prefer the higher fee income, but if instead they said "sorry we refuse to support an increase because we want your fees" it would be begging a harsher response from users.
<gmaxwell>
and by pretending to be super pro 'scaling' but always in a way that is contrarian they can basically claim the fault is elsewhere.
<gmaxwell>
(just giving that as an example-- as an alternative to asicboost which is also compatible with the economic incentives)
<oleganza>
so lets say BIP91 fails and blamed on "btc1 devs rushed an untested code, sorry, not our fault, we can't run it, oops we missed segwit deadline". What'd be the next scapegoat?
<gmaxwell>
oleganza: datapoint if you've missed it, looks like bitcoin.com stopped setting bit4.
<gmaxwell>
extrapolating from known hashrates this makes me estimate that 91 will not activate in this window, more likely than not. (of course, could have been a transient blip... but it's right on the threshold for this window)
<oleganza>
do you mean, bitcoin.com is a "swing state"?:)
<waxwing>
let's hope gmaxwell is not the nate silver of bitcoin :)
<waxwing>
hmm "segwexit" ?
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<gmaxwell>
oleganza: when it's right at threshold everyone is a swing state. :P
<oleganza>
lol, true
<gmaxwell>
bitfury stopped earlier, but I think this is because of the partitioning problem.
<gmaxwell>
I think they stopped so matt would have time to change fibre to be able to bridge btc1 partitioning. (see the issue I opened on their repo)
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<gmaxwell>
it's not exactly a trivial change.
<oleganza>
so bitfury seriously want to run btc1?
<oleganza>
miners seems to play the game of chicken and at least some of them will lose money
<gmaxwell>
oleganza: oh no, they're not doing that... like many others (hopefully most) they're running core plus the BIP-91 patch, I believe.
<oleganza>
because if half is going to enforce bip91 and half isn't, the larger half is going to gain some $$$ at the expense of the smaller half
<gmaxwell>
not that the BIP-91 patch is super safe.
<oleganza>
gmaxwell: yeah, i mean purely the logic of bip91
<oleganza>
"reject non-segwit-signalling blocks after bip91 reaches 80%/336"
<gmaxwell>
Advice I gave to some is that they need to have a BIP-91 and a non-BIP91 node and be ready to switch if fake signaling resulted in a submajority enforcing.
<gmaxwell>
(fking fake signaling)
<oleganza>
yeah, i just had the same thought. But this means, there will be a window of time where someone is going to mine on the minority chain
<gmaxwell>
no avoiding it. I think it's unlikely that we don't get some damaging reorgs out of this, but possible.
<gmaxwell>
(to undo some of the double negation, I think it's likely that there will be damaging reorgs; though I wouldn't place a big bet on it.)
<oleganza>
my personal theory is that the underlying story is asicboost + need to depress the price to allow buying up as many coins as possible as the time runs out.
<oleganza>
higher fees with constrained capacity are just small potatoes, imho
<oleganza>
i guess after the halving, mining no longer supplies an adequate amount of coins per unit of time for people seeking to buy, say, 1B$ worth of coins.
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<kanzure>
there was an idea for bonded deployments a while back, what about bonded signalling.
<kanzure>
coins could be locked during the signalling period, and released after activation?
<kanzure>
and/or timeout exhaustion
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<kanzure>
"On the necessity of a prescribed block validity consensus: Analyzing bitcoin unlimited mining protocol" https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/686.pdf
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<uvarovserge>
hey wizards, do any of you know of a working decentralized exchange or even the working concept?
<uvarovserge>
I can't seem to find one after a lot of research
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<Char0n>
uvarovserge, bitsquare.io?
<uvarovserge>
Char0n: "Decentralized arbitration system and security deposits protect traders." - it's not decentralized if it's relying on arbitration
<uvarovserge>
well, the network might be decentralized, but not the trust/security
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<uvarovserge>
also, security deposits. I want to change my LTC and receive BTC in return. I go to the exchange and it's saying I need a collateral in BTC. hmm...
<Char0n>
Then you have to wait until AtomicSwaps are a thing. There is no other alternative yet.
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<uvarovserge>
but where can I get it if I don't have BTC yet? ah, right, just exchange LTC to BTC on Bitsquare. oh wait...
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<uvarovserge>
Char0n: yeah, I just wanted to be sure, thanks
<uvarovserge>
still trying to find any info on Waves "Decentralized" Exchange
<uvarovserge>
everything is so vague
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<uvarovserge>
this is the same one that delisted N**-coin in their UI
<uvarovserge>
but they still say that the "backend" is decentralized. don't know how to check without learning Scala and diving into their code
<uvarovserge>
have a feeling this is a bunch of marketing BS
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<mryandao>
this is more appropriate in #bitcoin
<mryandao>
uvarovserge:
<uvarovserge>
haha that's funny cause #bitcoin sent me here
<uvarovserge>
you were right there actually :)
<sipa>
please guys, this channel is for talking about technology
<uvarovserge>
yeah, exactly what we're discussing here
<uvarovserge>
"In the case of Bitcoin there is a party (or multi-sig parties) that maintains an in-and-out exchange procedure for Bitcoin, swapping it for its corresponding network token."
<sipa>
please
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<uvarovserge>
seriously? theory of using cryptography for swapping Bitcoin with other cryptos is off topic on #bitcoin-wizards? where are we supposed to discuss things like this then?
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<kanzure>
if you have something new to say about atomic swaps, then say it. otherwise go in peace.
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<yoleaux>
With DNA/bacteria (or nanobots?) + public key crypto, it should be possible to make cryptographically-secure blood oaths. (@kanzure)
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<eck>
how can i tell which historical BIPs were actually ratified/incorporated into bitcoin?
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<kanzure>
eck: you mean, which soft-forks have been activated?
<eck>
yes
<eck>
in particular, was BIP 62 deployed?
<kanzure>
what about early hard-forks from prehistoric times?
<kanzure>
or would-be hard-forks i guess. since that's unclear.
<kanzure>
bip62 was withdrawn
<kanzure>
it says so on the bip
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<sipa>
eck: it's perhaps confusing because there is no definite authority on this
<sipa>
bips are just proposals
<sipa>
certain software chooses to implement them or not
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<stevenroose>
sipa: true, but some, like softforks, can be classified as either "deployed" or "not deployed" since they require network consensus
<stevenroose>
the ones that are clearly just utility features like bip38 or bip39 are easier to grasp,if you want them, implement them
<stevenroose>
the p2p ones are probably the hardest :p would require searching through implementations or hope that someone listed the implementations that implemented them at the bottom of the BIP
<sipa>
stevenroose: agree
<sipa>
softforks are pretty much the only one for which an authorative "is enforced by the network" is relevant
<sipa>
and even for those, not all nodes necessarily implement it
<stevenroose>
I recently bought bips.ninja, mostly with the intention to forward bips.ninja/## to the mediawiki, but I could add like an overview page on the landing page with nodes, wallets en libraries and the bips they implement
<kanzure>
"is it enforced by the network" has to be really just node-enforcement, since miner enforcement is plagued by false signalling and in some cases nodes that aren't enforcing activations because the nodes aren't upgraded (bip91...).
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