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<whit537> elliottcable: !
<elliottcable> !
<elliottcable> So! What'll do you already know about Bitcoin? Do you want any primers or help before I drop you a bucket 'o cash?
<whit537> I have a basic theoretical knowledge, and an even more basic practical knowledge.
<whit537> I have a Coinbase account.
<whit537> And a couple years(?) ago I installed some piece of local bitcoin software.
<whit537> I need to give you a transaction token, yes?
<whit537> An address?
* elliottcable nods
<elliottcable> I'd advise you to move your bitcoin away from Coinbase immediately, by the way.
<elliottcable> Quite aside from the reliability issues I mentioned in the GitHub thread, that is.
<alexgordon> not fucking coinbase
<elliottcable> I've nothing personally against Coinbase, but especially much in this particular case ... hosted wallets are *extremely* ill-advised. Never use any service or system wherein your private keys leave your own computer, at least in any unencrypted form.
<alexgordon> people keep going on about how shit it is
<alexgordon> but they keep using it
<alexgordon> I don't understand it
<elliottcable> Personally, I'm a huge fan of http://blockchain.info/ ... and those more paranoid and less practical than me, tend to stick to local-software wallets
<elliottcable> alexgordon ⑊ Frankly? It's the easiest and cheapest, if least reliable and reasonable, way to acquire Bitcoin in the U.S.
<elliottcable> You people get fancy Euro bank transfers and shit. Over here, nobody allows bank-to-Bitcoin transfers, much less buy-with-plastic, except Coinbase.
<alexgordon> to be fair pingit is pretty new
<elliottcable> After Coinbase, if you don't want to go through a *lengthy* and *painful* verification process with Dwolla *and* Mt. GOX, your next-best option after Coinbase is walking fucking cash to that shady CVS down the street with all the hoodies hanging out.
<alexgordon> heh
<elliottcable> and after that, creepy Craigslist meetups. /=
<elliottcable> Believe me, first-hand experience with all of the above ... Coinbase makes sense, in some ways, despite all the issues.
<elliottcable> at least for acquiring bitcoin.
<alexgordon> what does coinbase do that's so special that they can charge ridiculous rates?
<elliottcable> My advice to whit537 was predicate on his having a *business* need to be buying/exchanging BTC for $US or similar.
<elliottcable> Ridiculous? Their rates are fairly low.
<elliottcable> Bitinstant is something like 4%, and that's not even including the MoneyGram fees, gas to drive to a CVS or bank, ATM fees to get the cash, or anything else.
<alexgordon> but their prices are out of wack with market prices no?
<elliottcable> I wound up spending a total of ~540$ to get 480$ worth of BTC when I tried that.
<elliottcable> Coinbase is nice and cheap, with a flat 1%.
<elliottcable> no, their prices are out of *sync*. Different thing. You still get the market price, plis 1%, plus 0.05%, but you get that price *on the day their purchase goes through*. Which could be higher or lower than you expected.
<elliottcable> anyway
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ either way, you should set up a temporary address for this transfer; you generally want a new address for every transfer you process.
<alexgordon> elliottcable: where's this github thread you were talking about?
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ (although, for whatever BTC mechanism you may decide to implement on Gittip, I could easily see you using a single address for all ins and outs; as I understand it, you're big into radical transparency, and Bitcoin can easily provide that, if you so desire.)
<alexgordon> offtopic: I wonder if you could find out satoshi's identity by analyzing code style
<elliottcable> already tried
<alexgordon> damn
<alexgordon> :P
<alexgordon> do it better?
<elliottcable> was found to be an odd amalgam of styles
<elliottcable> the people analyizing it said “not an expert programmer, but neither a complete beginner”
<elliottcable> their assumption was was that he had a lot of theoretical knowledge, but little experience
<elliottcable> personally, I think a group is more likely
<alexgordon> I remember a thing on HN, where someone posted an anonymous comment and challenged HN to identify them by the words they used
<alexgordon> their style of writing, etc
<elliottcable> two huge news organizations had investigative journalists investigate him;
<alexgordon> yeah but what do journalists know about programming :P
<elliottcable> and of course the hacker-y, geeky, and obsessive Bitcoin nerds have been trying to, pretty hardcore, for years
<elliottcable> so I'll assume it's fairly impossible
<alexgordon> BUT I'M SMARTER THAN OTHER PEOPLE
<elliottcable> this isn't like _why or something, where a bunch of loyal, not-so-nerdy feely-gooders knew but kept the mystery for fun
<elliottcable> this is basement-beards going HAM and failing
<alexgordon> I guess I just don't believe that anonymity is possible
<elliottcable> Again, personally, I find it unlikely that an individual could mask their identity so throughly from such investigation ... so I'll be a bit conspiracy-theorist for once in my life, and throw it out there that I suspect the involvement of a larger organization or government
<alexgordon> yeah
<alexgordon> I would be inclined to agree with you
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ got me an address?
<elliottcable> alexgordon ⑊ got a moment to speak of Paws/proglang things?
<alexgordon> yah but it's almost 4am and I want to go to sleep :P
<elliottcable> fack.
<alexgordon> I've been up since 5am for the past few days
<alexgordon> not doing me any good
<alexgordon> but who am I talking to
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ wanna learabout my batshit-insane programming language? I need a foil for time-travel semantics.
<elliottcable> alexgordon ⑊ yeah, it's 10:40, and I've got a plan departing at 10:00AM. I won't be sleeping before I board.
<elliottcable> alexgordon ⑊ <3
<alexgordon> elliottcable: go: bloody my anus with proglang talk
<elliottcable> m'kay.
<elliottcable> Remember time-travel?
<elliottcable> yesnomaybe?
<elliottcable> or anything about ownership/responsibility semantics at all?
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> errrr
<alexgordon> maybe?
<elliottcable> ick.
<alexgordon> I remember it was a thing
<elliottcable> I'd have to re-explain half of the language shit to get into specifics.
<elliottcable> I don't particularly want to talk about Paws itself.
<elliottcable> Let's see if we can have a Paws-less discussion of PLT. Yah? Yah. I'm sure that'll make you happy.
<alexgordon> THIS IS WHY PAWS NEEDS A WIKI
<alexgordon> yay
<alexgordon> RUTRUTRUT
<whit537> :)
<whit537> I do not have an address.
<whit537> What is the very simplest way to get one?
<elliottcable> Any wallet software you're using, should have a functionality to generate new addresses on demand.
* whit537 downloads that
<elliottcable> again, I vouch for http://blockchain.info
<elliottcable> it's technologically interesting because the entire application is one, big fat-client; none of the functionality involves sending any data to their server.
<alexgordon> heard good things about http://electrum.org/
<elliottcable> all of the encryption, verification, hashing, etceteras happens *locally* ... “logging in” is the act of downloading an encrypted copy of your wallet from their server (via two-factor authentication with your cellphone), and then dis-encrypting it locally with your password.
<alexgordon> but yeah blockchain is probably easier still
<elliottcable> Here's an example:
<elliottcable> http://ell.io/idSR4
<elliottcable> after logging in and disencryption, you can choose “receive money,”
<elliottcable> and then generate a new address: http://ell.io/i9kbL, http://ell.io/ip7IF
<elliottcable> (in Bitcoin, unless you have a good reason to be being radically and permenantly transparent with your actions, these addresses are generally single-use)
<devyn> yo elliottcable, you rang?
<elliottcable> devyn ⑊ o7
<elliottcable> I'd love to chat time-travel and bubbling here in a moment
<whit537> elliottcable: Are you intending this to be a donation to Gittip, LLC, for the purposes of exploring 310?
<elliottcable> Actually, I'm intending it to be a personal gift.
<elliottcable> Consider it Gittip's first one-off, Bitcoin-transacted, tip, to you.
<alexgordon> whit537: it's oil money, don't take it!
<elliottcable> I *am* very interested in Gittip's Bitcoin integration; so if you'd like me to split this up, and transmit part of it publically as a public Gittip donation to a public address, that might not be a bad idea.
<alexgordon> SAVE THE ALASKAN PENGUINS
<elliottcable> Will also give you a chance to experience the different flow of private, and public, transactions.
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<whit537> elliottcable: Thank you! :D
<whit537> I just wanted to be clear about it.
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ I believe in what you're doing. (=
<whit537> Thanks, man. :)
<elliottcable> But yes, to be clear, you have my explicit permission to eventually withdraw this as $US for your own use.
<elliottcable> I just hope to also give you some capital to explore the Bitcoin system in the meantime. (=
<devyn> ah, so elliottcable actually decided to join the bitcoin club? o/
<elliottcable> devyn ⑊ → #Paws.Nucleus?
<devyn> sure
<elliottcable> devyn ⑊ for a given value of join. I'm still skeptical, but I find it interesting, and am happy to teach others what I've learned in my intense research.
<devyn> of course, of course. I actually don't care much for bitcoin I think, but cryptocurrencies are a good idea
<devyn> that said I have mined 1 BTC now, as of a few days ago
<alexgordon> <elliottcable> intense research
<alexgordon> devyn: in how long?
<devyn> alexgordon: a month of on and off I guess
<alexgordon> lolol
<purr> lol
<devyn> I was only mining part time lol
<whit537> It was a couple years ago.
<whit537> I have Bitcoin v0.3.23-beta on my machine.
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<whit537> (c)2009-2011
<whit537> I just installed 0.8.1 as well, and it's named Bitcoin-Qt.app.
<Nuck> Woah there's life in here wtf
<elliottcable> in the native client, there's basically the same flow as I showed you:
<Nuck> Holy shit hi elliottcable
<whit537> elliottcable: I have an address!
<alexgordon> devyn: that's like 45¢/hour
<elliottcable> generate a new address, give it a label if you wish, give it to me to accept money from me, and then archive it, because you won't be using it again
<Nuck> And alexgordon! And devyn!
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ private-message me a signed message involving that address.
<alexgordon> nuck: elliottcable was going to bloody my anus, but then he refused because he didn't want to explain time travel again
<Nuck> alexgordon: wat.
<purr> beep.
<elliottcable> in Bitcoin, it's important that you can verify that you're talking to the person you're trying to give money to; and because it's intended to be difficult to tie *identity* to an address/person ... instead, you tie cryptographic keys to a person.
<Nuck> I prefer tying bows to persons.
<elliottcable> I *am* explaining, in a different channel. Trying not to muck this one up while I work with whit537, so kindly shut yer traps.
<whit537> S'fine. :)
<Nuck> Halp me decide. I'm looking at two essentially identical items but one is $1.50 more and has 2 day shipping
<alexgordon> YOU CAN'T SILENCE ME
<devyn> alexgordon: at a cost of probably about 5¢ an hour, not too bad :p
<Nuck> Is it worth it? ;_;
<alexgordon> WHAT ABOUT MY 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHTS
<Nuck> alexgordon: FUCK YOU YOU'RE NOT AN AMERICAN
<devyn> alexgordon: I think when averaged out I probably did only 7h/day of mining
<alexgordon> THAT'S NOT WHAT MY UNDERWEAR SAYS
<alexgordon> devyn: nope still shit
<devyn> it's free money alexgordon
<Nuck> alexgordon: RUBBING THE AMERICAN FLAG ON YOUR BALLS DOESN'T MAKE YOU AN AMERICAN, IT JUST MAKES YOU A CONGRESSMAN.
<devyn> are you going to fucking complain
<alexgordon> uh oh
* elliottcable grins
<whit537> Is that sufficiently secure?
<whit537> dm, that is
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ Well, part of the purpose here is to help you understand the generally-accepted payment flow between to individual parties.
<whit537> Okay.
<whit537> So you want a PGP encrypted message?
<elliottcable> Again, some of this will differ for your upcoming real-life purposes, simply *because* you wish radical openness.
<elliottcable> Actually, this has nothing to do with PGP; you can encrypt a message directly in the client.
<elliottcable> If you don't have or wish to use the desktop client, there's also a nice utility on http://brainwallet.org
<elliottcable> I've only done this once. let me make sure I'm doing it right.
<elliottcable> forgive me. Something's come up. Be back in a couple minutes, need to write an e-mail to support. fuawibtaeitjewts.
<elliottcable> okay. moving right along.
<whit537> I don't see any signing UI in the 0.3.23 version.
<whit537> So I've launched the 0.8.1 version, and it's doing "things."
<whit537> Currently it's "Synchronizing with network ..."
<whit537> It's taking a long time.
<elliottcable> That'll take a long time.
<elliottcable> For now, choose to export your private key
<elliottcable> and import it into blockchain.info, or copy-paste it into brainwallet.org's message-signing interface
<whit537> I do see UI to sign messages in this version, though.
<elliottcable> hm
<elliottcable> should be able to sign messages without it being synchronized
<elliottcable> greyed out or sommat?
<elliottcable> sorry, I never use the official client, all to un-Mac-y for me
<elliottcable> er
<elliottcable> probably!
<elliottcable> I love you, I'd never leave you baby D:
<elliottcable> except to get laid in Chicago, but, I'll be back eventually
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<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ Basically, sign a message saying something identifying between us (For instance, “I'm whit537, I run Gittip.com, and I'm accepting a donation from you for the purposes of GitHub Issue #310.”)
<elliottcable> then privately transmit both that message, verbatim, and a Bitcoin-signed signature for it, to me.
<elliottcable> privmsg on IRC is fine, or e-mail. Twitter's probably inappropriate, as DMs are too limited in length.
<elliottcable> I can then retain that signature and message, to verify that a particular address sent it to me, and I can further transmit money to that address.
<elliottcable> Make sure you're signing it with the address you wish to have me send money to. That's, at the moment, a temporary one you generate for specifically this purpose, this transaction.
<elliottcable> all make sense, whit537?
<elliottcable> incomprehensibly ⑊ lol
<purr> lol
<elliottcable> you just missed everyone; we decided to talk tomorrow-ish
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<elliottcable> one of these coming nights
<elliottcable> unless you have a lot of time and boredom right now
<micahjohnston> I don't, really
<micahjohnston> I have a metric fuckton of exams that I am smack in the middle
<micahjohnston> of
<micahjohnston> gotta get sleep and do a bit of last minute studying
<micahjohnston> I have 11 exams, many of them split over 2 days
<micahjohnston> today was a full school day of just tests, and so are tomorrow and thursday and monday, and friday is a half day, and the next monday is another one
<micahjohnston> I took AP computer science today and probably got every thing on it right
<micahjohnston> :p
<elliottcable> LOL
<elliottcable> well, have fun :3
<micahjohnston> thanks :p
<micahjohnston> also having a bit of girl troubles :p
<micahjohnston> Real Life is taking up my whole brain right now lol
<purr> lol
<elliottcable> girl troubles, eh?
<elliottcable> same page, as usual
<elliottcable> I have a perfect girlfriend.
<elliottcable> It's the worst thing.
<micahjohnston> why? lol
<elliottcable> He's quoting a song, micahjohnston.
<elliottcable> A bit before your time. ;)
<micahjohnston> did I miss some messages?
<elliottcable> huh?
<elliottcable> the logs are public.
<micahjohnston> I got "it's the worst thing." and said "why? lol"
<purr> lol
<micahjohnston> was there something in between?
<micahjohnston> or am i super dumb
<elliottcable> ahhhh shit
<elliottcable> Didn't realize I'd done that.
<Nuck> Das better.
<elliottcable> yeah, read the logs, nuck was talking.
<Nuck> elliottcable: You need to go have some native american ritual where you and your brain get frisky and friendly.
<elliottcable> stupid +z means I don't notice.
<Nuck> And 99 problems is not before micahjohnston's time
<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ Going to FaceTime aforementioned Chicago, but I'll be back in a few minutes. Go ahead and sign that message for me.
<Nuck> It's 2004
<micahjohnston> yeah i get 99 problems lol
<purr> lol
<micahjohnston> elliottcable: anyway why is it the worst thing to have a perfect girlfriend? :p
<micahjohnston> is it that you're competitive?
<elliottcable> lol
<purr> lol
<elliottcable> micahjohnston ⑊ errrr ...
<whit537> Yeesh.
<whit537> What a day!
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<elliottcable> whit537_ ⑊ back!
<whit537_> Ish.
<whit537_> I'm going to let this network sync run overnight.
<elliottcable> whit537_ ⑊ okay. let's do this? I'd like to get some implementation done before I hop on my plane tomorrow.
<whit537_> D'oh!
<elliottcable> you don't need the network sync to sign a message, do you?
<whit537_> You are hopping on a plane tomorrow. :(
<elliottcable> because I want to get my side of this handled tonight, if I can
<elliottcable> all the network sync means is you won't be able to send your own transactions, or possibly see the reception of the ones *I* send you, until it finishes it. Shouldn't be relevant to what we're doing here, in other words.
<whit537_> Okay, let's do this.
<whit537_> Okay!
<whit537_> I believe I have a signed message.
<micahjohnston> well gnight elliottcable
<whit537_> elliottcable: Okay, pm'd you.
<whit537_> Very. :)
<audy> nuck bitcoin mining?
<Nuck> audy: haha no, just stress testing a drive
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<elliottcable> whit537 ⑊ back here
<whit537> Over here.
<elliottcable> Generally speaking, it should be pretty easy.
<whit537> I just don't have bandwidth right now for the deep dive.
<elliottcable> The only complex process is something as *important* as creating a permenant address.
<elliottcable> For general transactions it should be pretty easy. Two steps? Nah. Three, though? Sure:
<elliottcable> 1. Verify the connection between address and identity. (How you do so, your discretion)
<whit537> I propose we do the one-off personal transaction now, and leave the public transaction alone for now.
<whit537> If that's not okay then let's take a break and regroup later.
<elliottcable> 2. Generate a new address to send from, if you're worried about privacy, and fund it (either by transferring money in, or a shared-send type thing.)
<elliottcable> 3. Generate *a transaction* from/to the address you were given by the other party.
<whit537> Okay, you have an address from me that can be used to send bitcoin.
<elliottcable> yah. fine by me. You're already done for that, as a matter of fact; I'll generate a transaction sometime tonight. It's a lot of money, so I'm waiting for a large number of confirmations on my end.
<whit537> Are you willing to disclose how much you're sending?
<whit537> Or is that a surprise?
<whit537> :)
<elliottcable> We can talk more about gittip's Bitcoin plans in the near future when we both have more time. (Index: I should be back around computers middle-of-next-week at the latest.)
<whit537> Where are you flying, btw?
<elliottcable> Chicago.
<whit537> Where are you now?
<elliottcable> Wilmington, NC.
<elliottcable> I travel a hell of a lot.
<elliottcable> Only within the U.S. though, generally speaking. Don't get a lot of opportunities to even visit Canada.
<whit537> Mmm.
<whit537> Okay, so you have what you need from me tonight for the personal transaction?
<elliottcable> Nothing more!
<whit537> :)
<elliottcable> When it's complete, I'll private-message you the hash.
<whit537> Cool.
<elliottcable> that gives you everything you need to verify it with the blockchain (there's various tools for that.)
<elliottcable> It
<whit537> I'll leave my laptop open so I should stay in here.
<elliottcable> ... 'll eventually show up in your private client, too. Theoretically.
<elliottcable> also: the Twitter Boostrap comment, jesus H. christ, I hear you.
<whit537> :)
<whit537> It's cresting.
<whit537> Coinbase just got $5M, I guess.
<elliottcable> Learning about Bitcoin as a web-developer is sickening. There's so, *so* much comp-sci ability behind this system and the community, and not an ounce of design talent.
<whit537> Hopefully they suck less a year from now. :)
<whit537> Yeah, it's like the complement of the Ruby on Rails community. :)
<elliottcable> anyway. let me know if you copy the private chat into a gist.
<elliottcable> generally speaking, you might want to remove the message-signature line; but the rest is entirely safe to make public.
<elliottcable> The amount itself will eventually be public as well; I'm only keeping it out of this channel, specifically. There's enough speculation about my financial history and status in here as it is.
<Nuck> elliottcable: Nazi gold.
<elliottcable> nuck ⑊ Black gold?
<Nuck> elliottcable: No no, gq told me it's nazi gold~
<elliottcable> I don't know, I'm pretty sure the running assumption was that I'm a drug-dealer, with “kills people for a living” as a close runner-up. ಠ_ಠ
<Nuck> I like the new nazi gold theory.
<elliottcable> Everyone in this damn town thinks I created Google or sued Apple for rights to the iPod or some shit.
<Nuck> You look like Hitler's Wet Dream, elliottcable
<elliottcable> Programmers think I deal drugs; druggies think I programmed Google.
<Nuck> haha
<Nuck> Programmers think you *do* drugs
<Nuck> There's a difference
<whit537> There's the private tutorial. :)
<elliottcable> -ovoids
<purr> elliottcable: http://pastebin.com/RP1hWBHP
<whit537> Okay, gonna turn in.
<whit537> Thanks again, elliottcable!
<whit537> Will catch up with you later.
<whit537> :)
<whit537> !m elliottcable
<elliottcable> <3
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<alexgordon> elliottcable: flown yet?
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<sanitypassing> what's a Linux distro that is good for use in a development server right now?
<sanitypassing> I was considering Debian, but I dunno, the packages are sometimes outdated...
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