jbenet changed the topic of #ipfs to: IPFS - InterPlanetary File System - https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs -- channel logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/ipfs/ -- Code of Conduct: https://github.com/ipfs/community/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md -- Sprints: https://github.com/ipfs/pm/ -- Community Info: https://github.com/ipfs/community/ -- FAQ: https://github.com/ipfs/faq -- Support: https://github.com/ipfs/support
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<ipfsbot> [go-ipfs] jbenet pushed 2 new commits to dev0.4.0: http://git.io/vBRYn
<ipfsbot> go-ipfs/dev0.4.0 c419049 Jeromy: ipfs files ls without -l is faster...
<ipfsbot> go-ipfs/dev0.4.0 e04a31d Juan Benet: Merge pull request #2007 from ipfs/feat/fast-files-ls...
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<roguism> What does diasdavid go by here on IRC?
<jbenet> __mek__ want to do some research on todos with me? i propose we try out an asana todo list to manage stuff. the new asana is way better than the old one, and would provide really good inspiration for an open-source focused one.
<jbenet> roguism daviddias
<jbenet> roguism he's usually daviddias everywhere, but github.com/daviddias beat him to github.com
<roguism> oh, okay. I was just gonna poke him about some js-ipfs stuff
<__mek__> jbenet: wfm, I also want to talk to dustin at some point, since I hear he shares the belief of interoperable todo
<__mek__> We likely both have a handful of friends who can connect us.
<jbenet> __mek__ indeed-- will ask for intros tonight.
<__mek__> I'll be out of state until sunday, I'll get setup w/ asana and play around
<jbenet> sgtm
<__mek__> You too! & co.
<__mek__> On the plane I'll come up with notes and foward them along.
<jbenet> pokeball99 i added a bit to https://github.com/ipfs/archive-format
<ipfsbot> [go-ipfs] lgierth force-pushed version-commit from 6b96594 to 9d0c3f5: http://git.io/vBR8s
<ipfsbot> go-ipfs/version-commit 8ab0ddf Lars Gierth: gateway: add tests for /version...
<ipfsbot> go-ipfs/version-commit 3e03ae8 Lars Gierth: gateway: add CurrentCommit to /version...
<ipfsbot> go-ipfs/version-commit 9beebc9 Lars Gierth: commands: enable version for API...
<jbenet> pokeball99 yes, DAG is Directed Acyclic Graph-- if this doesn't immediately fill your mind with understanding about implications re the data in IPFS, i strongly recommend spending a few hours learning a bit of graph theory, algorithms, and specifically, merkle trees and authenticated datastructures
<jbenet> pokeball99 (dont know your background, if not used to papers, really don't be intimated, it's all relatively basic stuff, there's just a lot of it to grok)
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<jbenet> grahamperrin: im not sure-- from first reading, I think it is VERY logical-- they should be separate. one is for adding support (like, adding it as a package to download?) the other is using it to distribute binaries.
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<jbenet> __mek__ awesome re big archive.
<jbenet> nicolagreco: if you want longer-running notes-- feel free to open whatever in https://github.com/ipfs/notes/ or use https://github.com/protocol/reading-group/issues (i meant to use it, i just havent had time to really kick it off)
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<pokeball99> Haha, i actually do know a bit of all of that except for the merkle trees
<pokeball99> Also this guy is trying to implement ipfs into his project,he hasnt really gotten around to work on it,but im wondering if doing that in his project would be not hair pulling due to the fact that its a new system that he would have to put into and it would be easier to just make a new project or scrape it all together,or if it wouldnt cause a real problem
<pokeball99> and im just showing my newness: https://github.com/hydrusnetwork/hydrus (sorry for the word vomit btw)
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<jbenet> pokeball99 we think it's very easy to work with ipfs. some rough edges but very smooth overall
<jbenet> it does the basic stuff so well you wont notice it
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<__mek__> jbenet: Here's an interesting idea. Let's say one wanted to subscribe to a todo item. Then the todo item is edited. We'd always want subscriptions (i.e. pubsub) to a todo item to be on the original, item, right?
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<__mek__> For instance, we create a todo item T. It is issued a universally unique id (hash) and associated with it are hypothetical properties, e.g. "subscribers"
<__mek__> Never mind, the obvious counter example is one wanting to change their subscription status. Disregard.
<__mek__> jbenet: The reasoning was, it would be cool if any core ipld object or its derivative could be followed/subscribed. Perhaps by assigning an object (and all its future derivatives/re-publications) a same uuid which is not their hash.
<jbenet> __mek__ i'd probably tie this to names and republishing on a name, sort of like a feed.
<__mek__> Makes sense.
<__mek__> It would be neat if every single possible object could be followed.
<jbenet> __mek__ have the name point to a "Notifier" object that points to (a) the target object getting updated, (b) the new feed's root.
<jbenet> __mek__ yeah. possible that like with versioning, would likely end up with different ways to do it (eg commits vs CRDTs)
<__mek__> Alternatively, I was imagining every ipld object (even a Post) points to an object which has a unique hash, but that a given object can be republished (yet retain some id which is unique to that object -- a universal object id)
<__mek__> So, you'd just have to look at the latest publish of an object to see what is subscribed.
<__mek__> And republishing would/could change the access control.
<__mek__> e.g. A `Task` (which has an object id) might reference an IPFS ipld `Post` (which has an object id `o`). Anyone subscribed to the latest revision of `o` would get a notification if there's a change to the Task or Post.
<__mek__> Another interesting quality is things which are not people/parties (i.e. services, arbitrary metadata) can subscribe to objects and then conceivably perform tasks
<jbenet> i think it would be good to model all these options with visual diagrams of the resulting graphs
<__mek__> Sounds fun. The implementation is important, though in this case I was attempting to illustrate a high level notion -- did it make any sense whatsoever?
<jbenet> yeah it did. basically assigning tokens/ids that group different revisions of objects, and then being able to get notifs on any.
<__mek__> Yup
<__mek__> The high level use case being, Foo Corp wants to see if Bar Corp has added any data to their REST API. Instead of polling, they can be notified by subscribing to Bar Corp's service (which is an object)
<jbenet> idk, since i want to implement notifications as objects themselves, it gets tricky to reason about "things happening for every object" that themselves generate objects
<__mek__> At an implementation level, that's a fair point.
<jbenet> well that use case can be done by just implementing feeds with ipns
<__mek__> Yup, in this case (and maybe in most cases)
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<__mek__> It would be cool for subscription / pubsub of objects to be a 1st order property, like versioning, rather than an opt-in thing
<__mek__> Otherwise adoption is limited to the service or object
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<__mek__> Rather than to the user or agent who wants to subscribe to it
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<jbenet> well versioning is opt-in too, because it is objects again, and there are many ways of doing it
<jbenet> i don't hope to come up with "the one versioning to rule them all" -- in that commits make a lot of sense for some things, but not for others. same with CRDTs
<jbenet> so far i've been thinking through it like interfaces, a "versioning system" or "version history" would have certain properties and satisfy some requirements/methods
<jbenet> but the implementations can vary across use cases.
<jbenet> that frees us to implement the 1 or 2 most common ones without shooting future people in the foot
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<__mek__> I suppose the most important thing is having a living protocol.
<jbenet> (i.e. can implement Commits the git way knowing they're "wrong" from a "commutable patch theory" perspective, without dooming the system to this version of the world)
<__mek__> Yeah.
<jbenet> in any case-- feel free to document your thoughts on notifications in an ipfs/notes note
<jbenet> good to track all this stuff as we make it-- others will always randomly show up and contribute more ideas
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<__mek__> jbenet: Not even really ready to be notes on ipfs, but those are a few early ideas
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<zignig> jbenet: did you read the paper on cothorities ? ( http://arxiv.org/abs/1503.08768 )
<zignig> interesting read , and some very nifty applications for ipfs.
<jbenet> zignig: maybe i missed something? it seemed a trivial result
<jbenet> like, what is new beyond traditional web-of-trust trust graphs ?
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<pokeball99> Hmmmm
<jbenet> i guess maybe "scaling them to support thousands of participants via signature aggregation over efficient communication trees"
<zignig> yes that.
<jbenet> (i only skimmed the paper)
<pokeball99> Is this going to have problems with copyright?:
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<zignig> partial signatures
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<__mek__> pokeball99: https://apigroovebox.org -- there's a bunch of music you can use. 135,000 concerts, 2.2M tracks (as long as it's not for profit)
<zignig> and that it uses merkeldags , so it dovetails into ipfs.
<__mek__> Sorry, https://api.groovebox.org and similarly https://groovebox.org
<__mek__> pokeball99: https://github.com/thegroovebox
<pokeball99> Not my thing
<pokeball99> Just wondering
<__mek__> Ah.
<pokeball99> Plus he has music fi!es in his repo
<pokeball99> So that could get him an dcma :/
<__mek__> pokeball99: I do see that, in the xspf's
<__mek__> pokeball99: Who's to say he didn't purchase those tracks legally, question is if he is distributing them.
<pokeball99> Yea
<__mek__> I'm not qualified to speak to any of those subtleties, it's a good point.
<pokeball99> Well,anyone can grab them from his repo
<pokeball99> So technically he is
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<__mek__> pokeball99: The "silk road" paradigm is a challenge with any new distributed piece of technology which enables potentially mischievious behaviour with little friction.
<__mek__> (not a direct analogy, but the general idea is a hard one to keep in balance/check)
<pokeball99> Can you repeat that in english?
<__mek__> lol
<__mek__> It's hard to enforce user behavior when there's a system which easily allows bad behavior
<pokeball99> Ah
<__mek__> And the question of how much intervention there should be is a hard question
<pokeball99> Gotcha just wasnt sure
<__mek__> With no intervention, there could be heavy misuse. Too much intervention could stiffle creativity and adoption.
<__mek__> pokeball99: I think I type things before they even make sense to me. I'll try to think more.
<__mek__> My brain suffers from the "silk road" paradigm :)
<ipfsbot> [go-ipfs] AtnNn opened pull request #2008: use ServeContent for index.html (master...index_content_type) http://git.io/vBRME
<pokeball99> 2008 sucked
<pokeball99> We got obamacare because of that year
<ansuz> canada already had obamacare
<ansuz> but we didn't call it that
<__mek__> carenada
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<jbenet> pokeball99: i request you leave political trolling outside of this room
<pokeball99> Hehe
<pokeball99> Im 15,so i dont even gaf about politics,plus its all fucking drama,that and the news media
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<zignig> jbenet: how goes ipfs in general ?
<jbenet> !pin QmYKVQt2Aazd7iz9xCVgrwwtqCgUfD4qkf5CZDjpUJ8hxk
<pinbot> now pinning /ipfs/QmYKVQt2Aazd7iz9xCVgrwwtqCgUfD4qkf5CZDjpUJ8hxk
<jbenet> !pin QmRJpu5PWdRgJeqb9tE2YXm3TTQwc8P3J4kMzG5KMemXsM
<pinbot> now pinning /ipfs/QmRJpu5PWdRgJeqb9tE2YXm3TTQwc8P3J4kMzG5KMemXsM
<pokeball99> i.4cdn.org/wsg/1448469927253.webm
<jbenet> zignig: well! lots happening :) -- sorry would chat more but am about to go adk
<jbenet> afk*
<zignig> no worries , as long as you are still enjoying it !
<zignig> gather steam to take over the multiverse !
<zignig> :)
<jbenet> absolutely! :) -- the best part is seeing people super excited about it and building things
<zignig> it is , pub/sub and keyrings.....
<zignig> cambrian application explosion.
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<jbenet> yeah
<zignig> BOOM!
<zignig> have fun on your mission.
<pokeball99> Haha like how you bought the domain of misspelling the site: ifps.io
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* zignig types ifps all the time
<zignig> I have a bash alias to ipfs
<tjhowse_> Hey all. I'm reading up on IPFS now. Seems cool. I have a question about how snapshots work. At a glance it seems to imply that IPFS builds layered deltas on all data. This is the only way I imagine snapshots working as described. Have I missed something?
<jbenet> tjhowse_ ipfs gives you a graph, so we can make both git and CRDTs on top
<jbenet> tjhowse_ git is full snapshot based (not layered deltas, deltas only used in compression of pak files)
<jbenet> tjhowse_ darcs is somewhere between git and crdts, with version history dags of commutable patches
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<jbenet> tjhowse_ CRDTs are graphs of commutable updates to special data structures -- value lattices, if you want
<jbenet> tjhowse_ ipfs makes _all of them_ much easier to implement, and even mix.
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<jbenet> tjhowse_ we havent made our versioning yet -- will implement https://github.com/ipfs/notes/issues/23 soon
<jbenet> ok bbl.
<tjhowse_> ciao
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<locusf> is there any progress wrt git remote over ipns?
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<rht___> lgierth: I'm here for live debug for gc if this can make things faster
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<rht___> (looks like lgierth is not around, back to async, nipping out)
<pokeball99> trying to mirror glop.me and the command they have ( ipfs name resolve QmbqE6UfCJaXST3i65zbr649s8cJCUoP9m3UFUrXcNgeDn | ipfs pin add -r ) doesn't work,what will work?
<AtnNn> pokeball99: which part doesn't work?
<pokeball99> the latter part
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<Qwertie> How do you update go-ipfs?
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<M-davidar> ping mek
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<Xena> lol
<Xena> netsplit
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<davidar_> yup
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<Xena> i see lots of circles
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<computerfreak668> is there any attemp to combine this protocoll with a blockchain?
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<dignifiedquire> good morning everyone ☀️
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<haadcode> moin
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<itradar> pokeball99: hello. all music on https://github.com/itradar/ipfs-playlists is licensed as CC. i think its ok, or not ok?
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* zaggynl trips tjhowse
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<prosody> me 'fess
* prosody 'fesss
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<zaggynl> ..what?
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<ehd> daviddias: is there a js impl of ipld one can play with? :D
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<daviddias> there is https://github.com/diasdavid/js-ipld which expands a json object to replace the merkle link keys and cbor encode/decode
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<pokeball99> You figure with 300 people that their would be some conversion going on
<daviddias> which uses IPLD to define an IPRS record
<pokeball99> Oh,one just started....
<pokeball99> Or not
<daviddias> and abstract-record with some tests to test record stores
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<daviddias> have fun! :D
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<ehd> neat, so js-ipld expansion is rewriting keys according to a context and there's cbor encoding/decoding?
<ehd> is cbor how ipld records are stored in ipfs?
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: can you try organize that hangout so I can get speccing soon?
<daviddias> ehd: cbor is our encoding format to pass the objects in the wire
<ehd> got it
<daviddias> ipld is the structure in which we are able to expand types to be merkle links
<daviddias> Or other stuff that might come (in the future!)
<ehd> "expand types to merkle links", what does that mean?
<daviddias> It is a pretty big spec though, and probably be tooling to get these objects will get better
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: what do you think about testing http://flowtype.org/ on one of the many js repos?
<daviddias> ehd: it means that any value, if defined by a given context when expanding, can become ( or reveal itself) as a merkle-link
<daviddias> So that we know how to resolve it
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<ehd> and a merkle link is "/ipfs/hash" or "/ipns/name"?
<ehd> sorry, i'm a bit out of the terminology loop
* dignifiedquire stalking explanations
<daviddias> A merkle link is an hash of a blob of data which can be found on the network
<daviddias> We are actually thinking of calling IPNS hashes "mazieres" links instead
<ehd> oh, hahaha i don't get that but it sounds cool :D
<ehd> when i heard merkle links i thought ipfs AND pins, but gotcha now
<daviddias> dignifiedquire: if we can get types and interfaces in Javascript without making it messy, I'm all in for that! :)
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: :D
<daviddias> IPNS is based on David Mazieres work with SFS, the Self Certified File System
<ehd> gotcha. didn't have his last name in my bram (brain ram)
<dignifiedquire> what is IPRS ? Oo
<daviddias> InterPlanetary Record Spec
<dignifiedquire> oh god, we need a dictionary for ipfs..
<Stskeeps> +1
<daviddias> True:)
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<dignifiedquire> I feel like there are 10 new acronyms I need to learn every week
<ehd> is there a CRDT for glossaries [rustling intensifies]
<daviddias> Well, I guess that networks people like acronyms, applications people like random names ( e.g flux) :D
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: any suggestions what repo might be good test for using types?
<daviddias> The multihashes and multihashing
<daviddias> Used by a bunch of other repos, but quite small, if we get those right, then we are good for the rest
<dignifiedquire> ok
<dignifiedquire> are they on your account or on ipfs?
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<daviddias> Juan's account
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: by the way super confusing names.. js-multihash = multihashes on npm
<daviddias> Namespace conflicts
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<dignifiedquire> will take a look how flow works then :)
<dignifiedquire> also re hangout, any suggestions when we should try that
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<daviddias> What is the main blocker right now?
<daviddias> I might have missed to write down to schedule an hangout
<daviddias> I'm not 100% sure what is going to be discussed
<daviddias> Ah
<daviddias> Jeromy talking!
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<daviddias> My brain was gone
<daviddias> It is back
<daviddias> whyrusleeping: can we do an hangout today or tomorrow, recorded, about you explaining bitswap?
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* dignifiedquire lies on the floor laughing
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: that was a nice conversation with yourself
<dignifiedquire> but I’m happy you figured it out without me
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<dignifiedquire_> daviddias: by the way I think it would be really good to move all the js-ipfs related things to the ipfs org on github
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<dignifiedquire_> daviddias: it’s pretty nice
<ion> nice
<dignifiedquire_> good type inference, and good error messags (for the most part)
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<ion> Those error messages don’t quite match the expressions. https://github.com/Dignifiedquire/js-multihash/blob/flowtype/src/index.js#L110-L115
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<dignifiedquire_> ion: why? ?Error is Error or void
<ion> dignifiedquire: “< 3” ≠ “not (> 3)”
<dignifiedquire> ion: ah right, didn’t touch that yet
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<dignifiedquire> ion: re redundant, I’m afraid no because if this is used from outside people could put any stupid stuff into that function (flowtype does not add runtime checks)
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<dignifiedquire> ion: but those checks could be made nicer, more like assertType(arg1, Buffer)
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<ion> Ah. That’s sad (having to accomodate invokers from the untyped world).
<ion> m
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<dignifiedquire_> ion: http://bob.ippoli.to/haskell-for-erlangers-2014/#/cost-of-concurrency << did you know this, that’s pretty amazing (I knew erlang was awesome in that respect, but that haskell is that small and go as well quite close, nice)
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<ion> dignifiedquire: I knew both have very lightweight threads but I never looked for (or saw by chance) actual numbers before.
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<dignifiedquire_> ion: I had to laugh when I saw the numbers for Java :D
<ion> heh
<ion> Their threads are enterprise grade.
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<dignifiedquire_> nobody expects you to run java without at least 256GB memory anyway ;)
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<daviddias> yes, it looks nice indeed! :)
<daviddias> dignifiedquire: do we still need to make https://github.com/Dignifiedquire/js-multihash/blob/flowtype/src/index.js#L129 when types on function calls
<daviddias> whyrusleeping: did you get my ping?
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: yes because we are passing number | string
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: though that code could use some improvements probably to get rid of that
<daviddias> so, I need to do my homework
<daviddias> but does flow has a way to export the js code in a way that it adds those kinds of checks?
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: flow itself only does static checking
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: it has no runtime overhead, as everything gets stripped before execution
<daviddias> but who strips it?
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: babel
<daviddias> babel does everything
<dignifiedquire> they had their own tool once, but now babel does it, and it does it better xD
<daviddias> ahah :D
<dignifiedquire> and facebook hired the guy from babel to work on babel
<dignifiedquire> :D
<dignifiedquire> gonna setup the build process and tests next
<dignifiedquire> but it feels pretty sweet in terms of error catching and cleaner code
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<daviddias> what if someone that doesn't use babel requires that code
<daviddias> ?
<dignifiedquire> it throws
<dignifiedquire> we need to provide a built version on npm
<dignifiedquire> and add instructions for building to the readme
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: it’s like all type safe languages, you get a compile step that does type checking
<daviddias> so it would be like using typescript, right?
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<dignifiedquire_> daviddias: similar to typescript, but much more relaxed as you do not have to provide interfaces definitions for all libraries you are using, as flow can be used to only run on parts of the code
<daviddias> got it, main difference then
<daviddias> sounds good :)
<daviddias> oh right, it is thanksgiving in the US! That hangout might have to wait till next week
<dignifiedquire_> ah right
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<dignifiedquire_> I’ll find something to do in the meantime ;) l
<daviddias> review and make registry-mirror even more awesome? :D
<dignifiedquire_> lol
<dignifiedquire_> I could add types to it :P
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<dignifiedquire_> also there is the rest of the http api :'(
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<daviddias> :)
<dignifiedquire_> daviddias: how is the cloning coming along?
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<daviddias> whyrusleeping: made things faster in go-ipfs
<daviddias> and lgierth made it faster at the OS level
<daviddias> but still far 45000 out 500000
<daviddias> libp2p people, wanna check stuff? :D https://github.com/ipfs/specs/labels/libp2p
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<ion> I should get around to reading the existing specs in the first place.
<daviddias> ion: :)
<dignifiedquire> daviddias: :( why so slow
<daviddias> it is a combination of the filesystem + mechanic disks + not fancy CPU
* dignifiedquire needs more POOOWER
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<daviddias> ahaha
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* dignifiedquire setting todo: read libp2p spec
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<_fil_> can anyone cat QmRT28ByQqJvEQ4XSvWyAzxUBTjPjukzfgEYhpPm3N98K4 ? (not dangerous, it's just a date)
<_fil_> I get "Error: merkledag: not found"
<ion> Do you have ipfs daemon running?
<_fil_> yes it appears so
<_fil_> but maybe some firewall is blocking me
<_fil_> I get the contents fine on the server on which I added the file
<_fil_> but not on my other computer
<_fil_> ipfs diag net shows me 100 connections
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<ion> Try running “ipfs id” on one machine and “ipfs ping <ID>” on the other where <ID> is the peer id of the first node.
<_fil_> oh I get it
<_fil_> thanks
<_fil_> only one machine had the daemon running
<_fil_> it makes sense now, but the error message isn't very informative :p
<ion> You are right about that. Would you mind filing an issue about it?
<_fil_> I'm on it
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<_fil_> thanks ion
<ion> thanks
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: richardlitt http://docs.ipfs.apiary.io/# :)
<daviddias> nice
<daviddias> might be good to keep libp2p stuff on a libp2p apiary
<dignifiedquire> are those available as http calls?
<dignifiedquire> mostly boiler plate atm but going to fill it out step by step hopefully
<daviddias> got it
<daviddias> nvm then
<daviddias> I was seeing DHT and thinking that this would be the IPFS API
<daviddias> which then would make into the HTTP API
<dignifiedquire> atm I just copied everything from ipfs commands
<dignifiedquire> need to go through and check each
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<dignifiedquire> daviddias: uuh atom switching stuff to standard + babel instead of coffeescript: https://github.com/atom/toggle-quotes/pull/26/files
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<dignifiedquire> alright I’m out good night everyone
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<daviddias> standard + babel world domination!
<daviddias> g'night! :)
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