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<haad>
good morning. great discussion ^ aboodman ogd whyrusleeping. decentralized database are exciting and I'm happy to see so many of the few projects trying to tackle it represented on #ipfs :)
<haad>
second, as the author of ^ I've been looking into the database side of things for quite some time now. I'm thinking, and have been working on this, to create an open decentralized db protocol that any database system can use. it's great to have all the different db's trying out things, but I believe we need something more... interoperable and composable, than specific databases can provide. aboodman ogd, would you be interested in collaborating on it?
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<haad>
the general idea is to, instead of providing "distributed data structures" as a database, design a protocol that replicates the operations log of a db. that way, we can have a thin API on top (eg. kv.set/get/del) and a thin API at the bottom for replicating the state changes. everything in-between is the secret sauce of any database.
<haad>
it also gives a lot of flexibility for the user on the "High Availability.......ACID" spectrum
<haad>
but my overall goal is that we have something that makes orbit-db talk to nom to DAT to MongoDB to SQLite, at least on the replication level
<haad>
*Noms
<haad>
ping me if this is something you'd like to see and work on together (as an open source project obvs)
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<whyrusleeping>
haad: +1 for that being an actual protocol
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<whyrusleeping>
also, sweet cli tool for orbit
<haad>
whyrusleeping: cheers :) having taken some over the summer to do more research and thinking, I believe doing it as a protocol is a lot better solution for everyone. building blocks, not systems, right? :)
<haad>
whyrusleeping: also, re. the CLI and orbit-db, working on write-permissions as we speak. per-user, private databases coming to your favorite orbit-db soon!
<haad>
that'll be sweet
<haad>
sorry, not per-user strictly, can also be multi-user write-only (ie. set of keys that can write)
<whyrusleeping>
mmmm, the UI in your readme looks amazing
<whyrusleeping>
this will be really great
<haad>
whyrusleeping: try the replication and use the --dashboard option for the other peer. I think that's pretty hypnotizing :D
<haad>
whyrusleeping: if you do try it out, let me know if you hit any problems, that would help a lot. the CLI is mostly WOMC since not many have used it yet.
<whyrusleeping>
will do!
<whyrusleeping>
i'm just playing with the noms ipfs demo right now
<whyrusleeping>
will try out the orbit cli next
<whyrusleeping>
also, mate at 6pm is bad
<whyrusleeping>
dont do it
<whyrusleeping>
bro
<whyrusleeping>
^ was supposed to be a test message in the chat demo
<haad>
:D
<whyrusleeping>
haad: i ran npm install, but i don't javascript often
<whyrusleeping>
so i'm not sure where the binary is
<MatteoHirschstei>
How can be "secure" a database on IPFS? How an application can build a session relative to one user without giving him the "keys" to the entire db, if the user got all the database into his ipfs node?
<jaller94[m]>
That fun and hacky edior throws the following error in my FF and Chrome.
<jaller94[m]>
`mat: Likely by having one encrypted, SQLite file per user. What do you wish to achieve?
<MatteoHirschstei>
jaller94: Nothing, just I'd want understand if it will be capable to replace a mysql installation in the near future, or not... I'm not a programmer, but a sysadm
<MatteoHirschstei>
*developer
<haad>
MatteoHirschstei: it's not as straight-forward (in regards to databases in general) as to just "replace with IPFS" or "slap IPFS on it". databases are very complex systems and there's many different types to serve different use cases. the ideal way here, imo, is to make mysql use IPFS under the hood.
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<haad>
that said, relational DBMS are usually transactional and that's very tricky to implement correctlty in distributed networks and I believe full transactionality can't be done without consensus, ie. IPFS alone can't necessarily do it.
<haad>
so "make mysql use IPFS" is not trivial at all
<haad>
for eventually consistent databases it's a bit easier, and IPFS can certainly be used for that
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<MatteoHirschstei>
I had bet that "make mysql use IPFS" was not trivial :-) In fact I'm here just to comprehend if it could be (one day) possible or it's more a dream...
<haad>
I believe it's possible but definitely will take time, and may involve more than just IPFS
<MatteoHirschstei>
Thanks, I'm really far from understand the logic... but good to know that people believe it will be possible :)
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<Stskeeps>
cool
<Stskeeps>
it'd be an interesting test if governments go far enough as to block ipfs gateway or seed nodes i guess
<lgierth>
we'll see
<lgierth>
we have plans for more sophisticated bootstrap
<lgierth>
e.g. websockets bootstrappers domain-fronted behind google cloud
<Stskeeps>
nod
<Stskeeps>
heh, i did wonder recently if you could make something funky like encrypting towards all public keys holding filecoins random information on nodes or bridges and send it out over satelitte
<lgierth>
anyhow if they block the ipfs.io gateway in spain, you can still use ipfs itself, or pop up many more gateways
<lgierth>
there's this satellite content broadcast network... what was it called again
<lgierth>
i'd love to see them broadcast IPLD blocks
<Stskeeps>
nod
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<Stskeeps>
i recall hearing about it (not the bitcoin one)
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<lgierth>
yeah another one that's already operating for a year or two
<lgierth>
where uses vote on which content they want broadcasted
<Stskeeps>
now i have to wonder you could do blockchain bidding on what ipfs content to broadcast..
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<lgierth>
sure, or any other kind of voluntary mechanism
<lgierth>
doesn't always have involve currency ;)
<lgierth>
*have to
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<ilyaigpetrov>
what can be done if ipfs.io will be censored? Seems like webrtc-based js-libp2p-webrtc-star still needs a signaling server to operate
<lgierth>
depends on which part gets censored
<lgierth>
and how
<ilyaigpetrov>
lgierth: by IP and by domain name, Deep Packet Inspection, etc.
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<r0kk3rz>
we can start bootstrap node whack-a-mole. worked for tpb for a while
<lgierth>
the safest bet will be websockets transport and domain-fronting, and on top of that the circuit relay
<lgierth>
then they can go and censor google's/microsoft's main IP addrs
<lgierth>
but there's a ton of approaches for a ton of attacks
<ilyaigpetrov>
lgierth: I don't get it, does your solutions still exposes an ipfs server to the user? What is circuit relay?
<ilyaigpetrov>
how can you use Microsoft/Google servers? I think it's not easy to host IPFS server there.
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<r0kk3rz>
ilyaigpetrov: ms and goog host webrtc relays already
<ilyaigpetrov>
r0kk3rz: they host STUN servers, but that's not enough for peer discovery
<ilyaigpetrov>
STUN and TURN
<ilyaigpetrov>
js-libp2p-webrtc-star provides signaling server, maybe it could be hosted on some Google virtual/compute service
<ilyaigpetrov>
but in Russia they already censor sites hosted on google compute servers
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<ilyaigpetrov>
thanks, fronting paper is very interesting
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<lgierth>
the idea with domain fronting and ipfs is that we'd make the websockets transport capable of doing it, the run websockets bootstrap nodes in e.g. google cloud or azure
<DuClare>
Censorship in russia sounds crazy right now.. aren't they cracking down on vpns and other anonymizers too?
<lgierth>
these would at the same time also be relay nodes
<lgierth>
and heck there can be really crazy transports -- e.g. connecting nodes over facebook messenger, or via metadata in videos uploaded to vkontakte
<lgierth>
and if you're really dealing with a total loss of connectivity, you can still put ipfs/ipld blocks on a flash drive and deliver them by bike or pidgeon :)
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<lgierth>
oh right that's where we get back to the satellite broadcast use case mentioned earlier ^
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<ilyaigpetrov>
I guess in fronting you need to modify requests on the client, maybe it may be done in a chrome extension
<lgierth>
yeah it won't work in browsers without an additional api for it
<lgierth>
addressing using URLs is such a nightmare
<lgierth>
the host in a https:// URL is used for 3 different things
<lgierth>
DNS lookup for ip address, TLS SNI header, HTTP Host header
<lgierth>
we made came up with multiaddr to be able to address *anything*
<lgierth>
domain fronting is just one example where URL addressing model falls apart
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<lgierth>
with multiaddr, a domain-fronted bootstrap node could be addressed like this: /dns4/google.com/tcp/443/tls/sni/google.com/http/bootstrap.libp2p.io/ws/p2p/QmTheNode
<lgierth>
pretty verbose but super flexible
<lgierth>
/dns4/google.com gets resolved to /ip4/1.2.3.4 and from there on it's just streams encapsulating streams
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<kebb>
Is it possible to interact with and `ipfs mount` via a remote API address? like /ip4/otherhost/tcp/5001?
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<ilyaigpetrov>
lgierth: in domain fronting censors may install my client (chrome-extension) and extract real proxy server address and then block it
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<ilyaigpetrov>
and it won't work, because censors can't distinct packets targeted to blocked proxy server, wow
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<lgierth>
kebb: you can set the api endpoint to connect to: `ipfs --api=/ip4/... mount` -- never tested, but should work. not though that you should never expose :5001 to anyone you don't trust. it lets whoever can access it take complete control over your ipfs node
<lgierth>
ilyaigpetrov: not sure what you mean with "install my client", but yes the idea is that packets look like regular https traffic to google.com, and that blocking google.com would be to "expensive" for the censor
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<grawity>
I like the multiaddr style, but domain-fronting sounds like a terrible hack
<lgierth>
it's one of the better shots we currently have
<lgierth>
the users include signal, lantern, tor
<lgierth>
e.g. when egypt tried to block signal and signal didn't give a fuck? that was domain fronting
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<ilyaigpetrov>
lgierth: This doesn't work as well as maps.google.com: wget -q -O - https://www.google.com/ --header 'Host: mail.google.com'
<ilyaigpetrov>
it's from the paper
<lgierth>
do you mean the multiaddr format?
<ilyaigpetrov>
no, I don't use multiaddr
<ilyaigpetrov>
I mean this line from the domain fronting doesn't work
<ilyaigpetrov>
So I can't be sure that google still supports this feature
<lgierth>
ah got it
<ilyaigpetrov>
If you omit `-q` then you will see redirects
<lgierth>
yeah that example is probably bad
<lgierth>
since mail.google.com at one point move to the google.com domain
<lgierth>
it correctly uses the Host: mail.google.com header though
<kebb>
lgierth: okay, thanks, thats what i was looking for. I intend to firewall the port properly.
<lgierth>
kebb: cool, was just a heads up because it's not very well documented
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<kebb>
lgierth: related question: can I ipfs mount through that redirected API? My goal is to mount /ipfs in a VM using the hostOS's daemon+repo.
<kebb>
oh, that won't work because the "mount" command gets sent to the remote daemon and its mounted ovre there
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<kebb>
any other ideas?
<lgierth>
aah
<lgierth>
mmh yeah got it, it's the daemon which mounts stuff
<kebb>
so is my only option to remote-mount /ipfs via nfs,vboxsf,sshfs, or bind?
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<lgierth>
right now yeah i think so
<lgierth>
it would be super useful functionality to do local-mount though
<kebb>
ideally, "ipfs mount" could maybe spawn a local mount-daemon based on the api address. i think i will file that feature request, because it would be very useful for containers/VMs on same host
<lgierth>
i.e. have the cli mount it, instead of the daemon
<kebb>
yeah
<lgierth>
yeah please file it :)
<Kubuxu>
kebb, lgierth: extracting the `ipfs mount` was a plan for a long time
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<markster>
what is the difference between a bootstrap node and a gateway node? I would like to access the IPFS from a browser running on Android. Thanks.
<r0kk3rz>
bootstrap nodes connect other ipfs nodes to the dht
<r0kk3rz>
gateways forward ipfs content over http
<r0kk3rz>
they arent similar other than the ipfs guys run them on the same hosts
<Kubuxu>
markster: there is no difference in what is running on them, just how they are used
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<whyrusleeping>
Users of zcash can now download the initial zkSNARK parameters via ipfs, thanks to kpcyrd :)
<whyrusleeping>
now we just need to get them to sync the blockchain over ipfs :P
<lgierth>
> On first try, forgot to start my ipfs daemon, and got Error: merkledag not found (not a very informative error) before falling back on wget.
<lgierth>
:):)
<lgierth>
i can see this becoming a running gag
<whyrusleeping>
merkledag not found
<whyrusleeping>
lgierth: making it my github tagline now
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<lgierth>
:)
<lgierth>
we should seriously fix that thuogh
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<lgierth>
and clarify the various offline modes
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<stebalien>
jaller94: I get the same errors but it seems to work regardless (and I can't seem to get rid of them).
<jaller94[m]>
stebalien: Does it save for you? The text field is fine, however, it does not finish saving for me.