Kubuxu changed the topic of #ipfs to: go-ipfs 0.4.14 is out! Try out all the new features: https://dist.ipfs.io/go-ipfs/v0.4.14 | Also: #libp2p #ipfs-cluster #filecoin #ipfs-dev | IPFS, the InterPlanetary FileSystem: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs | Logs: https://botbot.me/freenode/ipfs/ | Forums: https://discuss.ipfs.io | Code of Conduct: https://git.io/vVBS0"
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<MikeFair> And publish it; signed by their node's private key; on the 'IPNSCID' topic channel
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<MikeFair> The results here should be deterministic
<MikeFair> So assuming all nodes did their job, they will all produce the same CID output
<MikeFair> Therefore the signed CID results the receive via PubSub on the IPNSCID topic will all match
<MikeFair> They start putting together an Object Update record
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<MikeFair> By adding the signed results they are collecting to the bottom of the object they have
<MikeFair> So what we have at the moment is several nodes have independently pushed the same Object record into the IPLD DAG
<ChrisMatthieu> I think that ties reputation to computes to authorizes computations
<MikeFair> but the IPNS record that is the "Object ID" still points to the starting point
<ChrisMatthieu> I wonder if we need ever validate results in the event of bad actors...
<ChrisMatthieu> less common on private mesh computers
<ChrisMatthieu> within corporate firewalls
<MikeFair> that's what this is doing
<MikeFair> If you don't get agreement you can't build the object update
<MikeFair> And the network identified the nodes as "Valid and trusted"
<ChrisMatthieu> What time zone are you in? I would love to get a quick call with you, me, and Jade (iamruinous )
<MikeFair> Assuming a PubKey + Signature is 64 bytes; you can add 12 entries to a DAG entry to remain <= 1k and have 256 bytes left over for "other info"
<MikeFair> PST
<ChrisMatthieu> looks like he's offline ATM
<ChrisMatthieu> same as us
<MikeFair> Nice! :)
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<MikeFair> Currently an IPNS record update only takes a single signer; the private key of the IPNS CID generator PubKey
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<MikeFair> This concept isn't changing the CID address, but it is adding the NetworkID, and the list of compute node signers that were collected over PubSub
* ChrisMatthieu re-reading the discussion. there's something i'm still missing
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<MikeFair> Okay, it's easy to see how every node outputs the same ore competing IPLD object right?
<MikeFair> Then they use the PubSub to tell each other the answer they got with their signature
<MikeFair> Each node collects all the messages they receive
<MikeFair> So if there's 20 of us nodes; we each "Publish" our own signed answer
<MikeFair> And we receive 20 signed answers
<MikeFair> These answer are simply the CID address; and the node's signature confirming that's the answer they published into IPLD
<MikeFair> From this I can build a multisig IPNS update record
<ChrisMatthieu> I think I was missing the part about the "network" maintaining a list of node public keys
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<ChrisMatthieu> ^ trusted
<MikeFair> Yeah that's needed for validation
<ChrisMatthieu> ok, i'm with you now
<ChrisMatthieu> I believe that would work well for now
<MikeFair> When you, the receiver, get this multisig IPNS Update Record; you pull the IPNS NetworkCID record and get the listed of valid PubKeys
<MikeFair> You confirm all the signatures on the record update; and you confirm that all the PubKeys are in the Network's published list
<MikeFair> If the Record is well formed; you accept the IPNS record publication
<ChrisMatthieu> it doesn't prevent a trusted node from becoming a bad actor but we can address that down the road
<ChrisMatthieu> i.e. compromised ndoe
<ChrisMatthieu> node
<MikeFair> And *justlikethat* you have automagically transforming named IPLD objects
<ChrisMatthieu> this is a good step forward for us
<MikeFair> (well named by fixed IPNS CID anyway)
<ChrisMatthieu> Cool. I'll take this back to the team. I like it!
<MikeFair> Agreed; for the compromised node thing; there can be a feedback loop for IPNS publications over the PubSub channels
<MikeFair> If a node consistently publishes a different CID than other nodes; it should be taken off the Network's approved list
<MikeFair> Which is done via an IPNS update to the NetworkCID record
<ChrisMatthieu> +1
<MikeFair> You want to ignore situations where every node publishes a different answer because that's more like a non-deterministic code
<MikeFair> This depends on the code's determinism to work
<ChrisMatthieu> true
<MikeFair> And I don't know if there are any ways to prove that;
<MikeFair> (that a piece of code is or is not deterministic)
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<MikeFair> (across executions in many node execution environments)
<MikeFair> What's kind of cool imo is how the IPLD entries begin to take form as object instantiations and the scripts/code file become a form of "type" or "class" system to those objects
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<MikeFair> Using the whole computes jobs can trigger other jobs thing; it seems like objects can call the methods on other objects
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<MikeFair> And since IPLD has "links" it can point those links to the "IPNS CID"
<MikeFair> (the fixed object identifer)
<ChrisMatthieu> I <3 it.
<MikeFair> And each "network" because it's own unique object store
<MikeFair> Which I guess is now the equivalent of an application
<MikeFair> s/because/becomes
<ChrisMatthieu> Oh, I like the idea of the network discussion becoming the application!
<MikeFair> and if like you said, they can be nested; then it's execution domains/contexts
<ChrisMatthieu> +1
<MikeFair> Yeah the multisig IPNS CID record has to have a networkID in order to provide the list of valid signers
<ChrisMatthieu> well, you could have trusted nodes per application
<ChrisMatthieu> and maybe even applications within a network
<MikeFair> the same IPNS PubKey, with a different NetworkId, has different signers, and a different CID
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<MikeFair> applications within a network within an organization within an institution within a framework
<MikeFair> etc
<ChrisMatthieu> <3
<MikeFair> Even sub-systems within an application
<MikeFair> (threads)
<MikeFair> Each "Network" is a separate "address identifier namespace"
<ChrisMatthieu> indeed. lattice could map queues to any level of that structure
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<MikeFair> So what that network represents is pretty arbitrary
<ChrisMatthieu> software-defined
<MikeFair> Even human usage / label defined; it's that because we said it was ;)
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<ChrisMatthieu> If executed properly, this could be more powerful that smart contracts
<MikeFair> You can even use IPNS DNSLINK to link a domain name to a network id
<MikeFair> I think so too
<ChrisMatthieu> Yea, I was thinking alot about building decentralized web on top of computes
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<ChrisMatthieu> via dnslink
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<ChrisMatthieu> not just static pages but also API-like interfaces that tie into computes as well
<MikeFair> yep
<MikeFair> I've got plans that CIDs get CGI like opportunities
<MikeFair> I see no reason an IPLD CID can't evolve into a REST like object
<ChrisMatthieu> cool. me too
<MikeFair> (With the IPNS fixed reference id)
<MikeFair> That's actually one of the first "models" I was going to try and get "SCript" to emulate
<MikeFair> The REST Commands on the "object"
<ChrisMatthieu> I was thinking a shortcut could be to build a small binary similar to blockstack that connected a web browser to computes and ipfs etc
<MikeFair> Well it's interesting because of the HTTP IPFS Gateway
<ChrisMatthieu> yea, that would work too for now
<MikeFair> And the JS-IPFS implementations to build a Node.js server around it
<ChrisMatthieu> yea, i like the idea of js-ipfs and no download
<ChrisMatthieu> even start with https://arpadyne.computes.com/ + js-ipfs
<MikeFair> And if I have my way about it; you can do HTTP over PubSub instead of TCP/IP
<ChrisMatthieu> now that would be cool
<MikeFair> Every NetworkID has a CID now
<MikeFair> err is
<ChrisMatthieu> i have a buddy experimenting with RPC in browsers making them behave both as servers and clients
<ChrisMatthieu> this could come in handy too
<MikeFair> and you can assign a script to it
<ChrisMatthieu> +1
<MikeFair> So it's something like you PubSub with NetworkID topic and that's how you issue commands in the Queue by REST API with the Objects in that namespace
<MikeFair> As the caller you subscribe to the Object Id you're asking about and wait for the IPNS update to come in
<ChrisMatthieu> Yea, RPC over pubsub
<MikeFair> Oh, this actually fist in really well with this idea I have that networks build links to each other
<MikeFair> and as objects move from network to network; they get transformed and aliased
<ChrisMatthieu> trusted and shared networks
<MikeFair> (because each network cares about tracking different aspects of the object)
<ChrisMatthieu> true
<MikeFair> The "end goal" I have in mind is a multi-million node simulation of a human body at the cellular level
<MikeFair> At the highest level you have networks that simulate the different organs
<ChrisMatthieu> <3
<MikeFair> then those have nested networks that produce more and more fidelity as you go down the levels
<ChrisMatthieu> + neural nets
<MikeFair> yeah
<ChrisMatthieu> algorithm appstore where algorithms can call other algorithms
<ChrisMatthieu> abstracted algorithms
<ChrisMatthieu> eventuall quantum computing :)
<MikeFair> And there's consensus within a network about what the right algorithm to use is
<ChrisMatthieu> true
<ChrisMatthieu> machine-to-machine micro-payments
<MikeFair> (because for things like "MD5SUM" they have to agree; even if it's "wrong" as long as they are all "the same" it's probably going to be okay)
<MikeFair> How you evolve the software in a running simulation like that has been one of the "key points" I'e been taking into account
<ChrisMatthieu> Lattice follows a split > map > reduce pattern
<ChrisMatthieu> you could continue to modify the algorithms on every compute
<MikeFair> "they are all production systems; you simply have to define which production system you want to call 'the truth' today"
<MikeFair> yeah it really begins to feel "alive" at some point
<ChrisMatthieu> indeed
<ChrisMatthieu> #skynet :)
<MikeFair> Another one of my end aims here is running the 3d printing automation factory
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<MikeFair> Ultimately I'm making a flying building with a machine shop, a dance hall, a large garden, kitchen, living spaces, etc. that can print more of itself
<ChrisMatthieu> I should introduce you to https://twitter.com/refriedchicken
<ChrisMatthieu> He has 100+ 3D printers at our maker space. His wife sells cookie cutters. He makes them.
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<MikeFair> (that also use an "ambient heat" based generator
<ChrisMatthieu> He's been asking about computes as well
<MikeFair> nice
<MikeFair> Well no that you've got my "agenda", I think this Consensus drive Object transformer can really do something
<ChrisMatthieu> I agree! I'll try to setup a call for another day with the 3 of us to discuss in more detail.
<ChrisMatthieu> Great discussion! Thank you :)
<MikeFair> Thank you!
<ChrisMatthieu> BBL
<MikeFair> I hope I'm getting closer to being able to run computes over Public IPFS ;)
<MikeFair> (Using the IPNS CID as the Network Identifier)
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<ChrisMatthieu> I was running my demo.sc scripts over public ipfs today just fine :)
<MikeFair> I might try and replicate what you did then :)
<ChrisMatthieu> try running my demo.sc script to see if that works for you
<MikeFair> sc or sh?
<ChrisMatthieu> .sh
<MikeFair> just checking
<ChrisMatthieu> you'll also need ipfs w/ pubsub, computes daemon, and docker running
<MikeFair> The Docker part doesn't run on my usual laptop that I sue
<MikeFair> But I got another computer I can use where I got it going
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<MikeFair> Have IPFS with PubSub running there alrady too
<ChrisMatthieu> Jade is writing a terraform template to easily install everything on digital ocean
<MikeFair> only missing the computes daemon piece
<ChrisMatthieu> you can download it from https://github.com/computes/help/wiki/Getting-Started
<MikeFair> Do they have a "free" tier?
<ChrisMatthieu> our beta is free
<ChrisMatthieu> oh, you mean DO
<ChrisMatthieu> i think they are $10/month
<MikeFair> Yeah; I have the license key for computes
<ChrisMatthieu> ah, $5/mo
<MikeFair> I'll take a look; I also like the $2/month low end JoyEnt.com compute node
<ChrisMatthieu> wow, that's cheap
<MikeFair> Might have too little oomph though
<ChrisMatthieu> DO is awesome
<MikeFair> 128 MB ; 0.125 vCPU (whatever that is); 5? GB disk
<MikeFair> might be 256 MB RAM
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<ChrisMatthieu> DO = 1 GB1 vCPU25 GB1 TB$5/mo
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* MikeFair is reading that.
<MikeFair> My end game is that it actually runs on a NAS like appliance on-site
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<ChrisMatthieu> We are thinking about selling a Computes appliance that tracks utility billing for enterprises
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<underikar> I heard jbenet mention ccm (or rather an audience member brought it up) at a talk. Does anyone know where I can find more info about it? Google doesn't seem very helpful
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<victorbjelkholm> underikar: was it possibly http://openccm.ow2.org?
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<underikar> victorbjelkholm: yeah I think so
<underikar> Thank you! I'll take a look
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<Powersource> any news on this? https://github.com/ipfs/js-ipfsd-ctl/issues/223
<Powersource> ipfsd-ctl is really unstable normally so just thought it was that at first :P
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<daftaupe> I have a question concerning the build of go-ipfs, is running make build necessarily run make deps ?
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<singpolyma> Where are things at with fs:/ vs dweb:/ -- is it going to be dweb: now? or are discussions still pretty ongoing?
<raynold> Ahh it's a wonderful day
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<lidel> singpolyma, fs is no longer supported, tools like our browser extension switched to dweb:
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<lidel> you can find links to relevant discussions in https://github.com/ipfs-shipyard/ipfs-companion/issues/164
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<singpolyma> lidel: thanks!
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<Kythyria[m]> (incidentally, unixpaths cannot do IPNS-relative URIs)
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<Icefoz> I don't see what the difference between dweb:/ipfs/$hash is and just ipfs:/$hash
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<Kythyria[m]> Icefoz: There's a faction that believes unix paths are the One True URL Format
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<Kythyria[m]> The theory is that they daisy-chain nicely, and that way you can potentially mount IPFS as a local filesystem.
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<Icefoz> Yeah but they're wrong for several reasons.
<Kythyria[m]> Yup
<Icefoz> sigh.
<Kythyria[m]> You need, eg, dnsfs to have its own registry of handlers anyway.
<Kythyria[m]> `ipfs://$hash/path/to/file` fits most nicely with current browsers.
<Icefoz> If you have dweb:/ipfs/foo and ipfs:/foo you have the exact same information, all the information is necessary to look anything up, and it's no more compact.
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<Kythyria[m]> And ipfs://foo has the nice advantage that you can use origin-relative paths in HTML documents and browsers will do the right thing automatically
<Icefoz> You say that "/ipfs/foo" is a block storage device and mount it to a local file system as if it were a hard drive but you can't compose that sort of syntax without jumping through lots of hoops.
<Icefoz> Bleh.
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<Icefoz> I'd just use dat instead but ironically dat has the opposite problem.
<Icefoz> Not enough vision vs. pragmatism instead of too much.
<Icefoz> IPFS is a fantastic sort of system for low-level content storage and transfer and so much effort has gone into making it as complicated and un-orthogonal as possible.
<Kythyria[m]> Unixpaths don't compose very well if you actually use a unix VFS layer to parse them.
<Kythyria[m]> Or if any but the last handler accepts variable-length data.
<Kythyria[m]> A somewhat contrived example might be `/dns/library.example.com/tcp/8192/https/books/rpg/exalted/daystar.epub/zip/images/chapter5/monorail.jpg/thumbnail/96x96/flif`
<Kythyria[m]> If you want to handle that sort of absurd case, unix path syntax is inadequate.
<Icefoz> mhm
<Icefoz> I mean URL's are too but they're a start.
<Kythyria[m]> I can think of some more cases that break the obvious heuristic too :)
<Kythyria[m]> Yeah.
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<Kythyria[m]> That one there is a structure like... `[ ["dns", "library.example.com"], ["tcp", 8192], ["https", "/books/rpg/exalted/daystar.epub"], ["zip", "/images/chapter5/monorail.jpg"], ["thumbnail", "96x96, "flif"] ]` but you can't easily say that in most things, and the mechanism for actually getting data out of that isn't like a unix VFS layer.
<Kythyria[m]> (this isn't covering interdependencies between the handlers either: `dns` can care what the next links in the chain are, while `https` cares about preceding links)
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<Icefoz> Turns out data is hard.
<Kythyria[m]> Yup
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<Kythyria[m]> In a realistic system you'd punt constructing some of this to a higher layer.
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<Kythyria[m]> And rely on application state.
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<JohnyTheSmith> what was the command again to display where my ipfs is located? Not the repo, the actual programm
<tperson> Like the `ipfs` binary itself? which ipfs
<JohnyTheSmith> yes. the binary
<JohnyTheSmith> i recall there was a command to find the binary location of the currently running daemon
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<JohnyTheSmith> nevermind, found it. Not the command but the location, had it saved in a file when i first tried to set it up as service
<JohnyTheSmith> (which didnt work becouse by default services run as root instead of user)
<JohnyTheSmith> (as user it works, obviously :))
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<tperson> Is unixfs (files api, mfs, add, get etc) suppose to properly store and restore posix permissions? I thought this was supported at some point, though I believe behind some `tar` flag.
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<tperson> Ah I believe I was thinking about `ipfs get` which supports the archive flag. Open issue around unixfs metadata, etc: https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/issues/612
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