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<theseb>
how convert a hash to cid?
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<theseb>
i saw an ipfs guru convert 0xd4e56740f876aef8c010b86a40d5f56745a118d0906a34e69aec8c0db1cb8fa3 to zb34WBy6SBXLaYLPYUUkgvccTdoARP3FFbhE9Wiy3H2ARe3Px
<theseb>
not what sure what he did
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<voker57>
try converting to raw bytes then feeding it to go-cid library
<voker57>
not sure what is that hash of or where is it from
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<Icefoz>
Would be nice to add format conversions to that...
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<Taoki>
Huh. What's this I hear (in an article) about "some parts of the IPFS network supporting copyright takedowns"? Just making sure there is still absolutely no system through which any authority can delete content from the network.
<Taoki>
Unless of course the owner of a specific IPFS node wants to unpin and / or block it.
<camb[m]>
Of course that's still the way it is.
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<camb[m]>
Unless I missed something critical ;)
<Taoki>
I found it after looking up DTube, which is apparently the first site to use IPFS for storage. Gorgeous little site by the way, can't wait to see more of it!
<Taoki>
Phew
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<Taoki>
I can't clearly understand whether DTube can remove videos for copyright purposes. Major flaw if so... the system will inevitably extend back to ideological, and it will be Youtube all over again.
<Taoki>
They say user downvotes hide it.
<camb[m]>
Dtube is something. Are you on Steem yet?
<Taoki>
No. Still new to both it and Steem
<Taoki>
Planning to register in the following days
<Taoki>
I've waited for something like DTube for a long time. Just hope it is everything it seems to be.
<Taoki>
Which starts with no authority having any ability to take down content, so it doesn't become Youtube 2.0.
* Taoki
is reading a few articles on it all now
<camb[m]>
Dtube is a website that shows videos hosted on the Steem blockchain. The owner of the Dtube website can choose to block any video from beeing seen on his site, but once it's been uploaded to Steem and IPFS ist going to stay there until Steem dies or IPFS forgets about it for lack of downloads.
<camb[m]>
It's not everything it seems to be, but it is a lot of it and I think it's a good thing to get started with and continue to evolve.
<voker57>
Taoki: there is no such system, ipfs.io/ipfs (official gateway) haphazardly bans some content via nginx directives
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<voker57>
blocklists (opt-out) are planned though I think
<Taoki>
Hmmm... so there is still potential for censorship.
<camb[m]>
It's a good alternative to most things people use these days for social nets. Inviting you to the Steem chat room now.
<Taoki>
Oh, thanks. Didn't know they have a channel here as well.
<camb[m]>
I see you're on IRC not sure I can invite you. You can find it in the room directory.
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<camb[m]>
Yes there is potential for censorship, but if the content has any value at all, then you would have to censor every IPFS and steem node there is.
<Taoki>
Well this IRC
<Taoki>
What's the channel name?
<camb[m]>
https://steemit.com/@camb is me if you sign up it crrently takes 1-3 weeks for accounts to get approved unless you pay for the registration at anon.steem.network
<Taoki>
Accounts need to be manually approved? o.o
<Taoki>
That... doesn't sound very fit for such a free and open platform.
<Taoki>
I thought it's all automated also, being blockchain and not as easy to control.
* Kythyria[m]
still can't take the name "Steem" seriously.
<Kythyria[m]>
Were they trying to collide?
<camb[m]>
Steem accounts need to be paid for. blockchain is money and is like entering a club where you can only join if you have x coin.
<Taoki>
I see. So you technically need money to join.
<Taoki>
I still like the idea, don't get me wrong. But I sense a few conflicting things sadly.
<Taoki>
Is there a steem channel here on Freenode as well?
<camb[m]>
If you want to join a blockchain based network like Steem, then you need to buy some coin. when you sign up on Steemit.com then they give you ~ $20 worth of coin. that's why it takes so long.
<Taoki>
Interesting
<camb[m]>
I understand why that doesn't sound pleasant and the truth is, it's not.
<Taoki>
Will that always be the case? Or will you someday convert your money to bitcoin and pay to join in?
<Taoki>
Yeah, I agree there. I'm only a little upset because it conflicts with the ideology of what they're doing,
<camb[m]>
But Steem is open source and seems to be slowly fixing these kinds of issues. There are not many other projects that adress these issues better as far as I know.
<Taoki>
"It's a free and open platform... but you need money to join". Also "It's all decentralized and uncensorable... but if it's copyright we can make it go away, so it's censorable".
<Taoki>
True
<Taoki>
Usually I have things with those issues, but in this case I still fully love the idea. It is an open and decentralized system after all, I can't not like it.
<Taoki>
**hate
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<camb[m]>
1 website can make it go away on their website. that doesn't stop it from being shown on any other website that uses steem blockchain.
<camb[m]>
Looks like my invite didn't work to the steem room.
<Taoki>
Fair enough
<Taoki>
Yeah, not seeing anything
<camb[m]>
if you search the matrix directory, the name is just "steem"
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<camb[m]>
are you on riot? it looks like your on a IRC bridge to me.
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<camb[m]>
I see. You're on freenode.
<Taoki>
Yes. Isn't this a freenode channel?
<Taoki>
Is this channel not part of the actual Freenode server? That would be quite something... never seen IRC connect other chat rooms so flawlessly.
<camb[m]>
you're on freenode and freenode also kindly connects to Matrix. they federate chat networks.
<camb[m]>
That is what might be called "herd mentality"
<Taoki>
camb[m]: Whether you will always be given 20$ when you join, or if someday you'll have to pay with your own money to have an account.
<camb[m]>
don't get me wrong. there a re enough reasons to call Steem a ponzi/pyramid scheme. The hope is that it has grown to a large enough open source community to fix these problems.
<Taoki>
If that 20$ is generated by the system, I assume it might stick. If someone is donating their own money which obviously won't last forever, definitely not.
<Taoki>
I'd be amazed if it was the later anyway... who could give 20$ to an infinite number of strangers at every given moment?
<camb[m]>
Taoki: Some day you will have to pay with your own money or have a friend that is already there pay for you.
<Taoki>
I see...
<Taoki>
Can DTube / STEEM be saved from this fate?
<Taoki>
This will lock out new users at some point. Especially those who can't easily convert real money in their pocket to cryptocurrency.
<Taoki>
It will never grow anywhere near Youtube if that is the case :(
<lord|>
small crypto donations for content creation are a nice idea
<lord|>
but I think an important prerequesite for it
<lord|>
is for society to embrace the ideals of free culture
<camb[m]>
the idea is to keep the price low enough to allow poor people to join, while keeping the price high enough to eliminate people from creating/spam/puppet accounts.
<camb[m]>
It's worth getting in to for free and collaborating with all the other people there that share the same thoughts we are having now.
<camb[m]>
Longer answer: steem is currently one of / the most popular option for a decentralized network that awards open source advancement / sharing instead of selling.
<camb[m]>
short answer: yes.
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<lord|>
the ease of copying digital content means you won't always make enough money producing content anymore
<lord|>
for example
<lord|>
someone totally against the content someone is producing will not buy that content
<lord|>
they will get a copy of it and criticize it
<lord|>
which is good IMO, but just doesn't fit into the modern attitudes towards intellectual property
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<camb[m]>
that's true. I see no problem there. Copy right only stops us from sharing advancement.
<lord|>
if people were more willing to donate small amounts of money to creators of good content... then just maybe... autotuned over-produced pop music wouldn't be nearly as widespread
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<Taoki>
camb[m]: 10$ would seem like a reasonable price to join. The problem I think isn't so much the value of the price, as 1 - Ideologically knowing that there is still a price to join, 2 - Needing some technical expertise or special services to convert the physical money in your wallet or on your credit card to STEEM.
<camb[m]>
Yes lordi we are slowly getting there.
<Taoki>
Even if the price was 10 Cents, which even a homeless man could spare without too many thoughts, there's still the feeling of "but it's not really free".
<lord|>
the privacy-invasive advertisement model means no matter the quality of the content, if you attract enough attention you will get money, given a small amount of people copy the content
<camb[m]>
brb 5 min.
<lord|>
copy the content, or use an ad blocker that is
<lord|>
the difficulty of ad blocking on mobile devices is probably what's keeping this broken system alive
<Taoki>
I like that way of making money myself
<Taoki>
If views and likes translated into money on Youtube, that would be a whole different story.
<lord|>
but then youtube would be a charity
<Taoki>
Sadly Youtube will kiss the boots of advertisers, while wiping its own boots on content creators who are not being randomly persecuted without the team batting an eye.
<Taoki>
True. Not its model so that makes sense
<lord|>
is steemit a charity? or are they producing crypto coins out of thin air?
<Taoki>
I'm not against their model as much as I am against them allowing it to be used as an excuse to mistreat creators so badly.
<lord|>
if the latter, what happens when someone hacks steemit and grabs their cryptocurrency private key
<Taoki>
No idea, I am new to STEEM. And I assume there's sadly not much that can be done, just hope no one hack.
<camb[m]>
I'm not a steemit dev. but I do have some answers to that.
<Taoki>
The question would be what happens if someone makes 1000 accounts, meaning they would get 2000$. Sounds pretty nice, but I imagine it would devalue the currency fast.
<camb[m]>
Also I'm not trying to talk you guys in to Steem. There are plenty of problems there. I just think there a re a lot of like minded people in that community.
<camb[m]>
IPFS in certainly a more healthy approach to networking, but in this day we still need some form of currency,
<camb[m]>
you can't make 1000 accounts unless you pay for it.
<camb[m]>
and then steemit is made to reward you more if you spent all that money on 1 account instead of creating sock puppets
<lord|>
camb: hmm? I thought they give you $20
<lord|>
for each account that they believe is not an alt account
<lord|>
it'd be quite difficult making 1000 alt accounts, you'd probably want 1000 ip addresses
<camb[m]>
lord|: That's why it takes 3 weeks, a google adress and a phone number to join. They want to make sire they are not giving the same person money twice.
<lord|>
only works with gmail addresses?
<lord|>
I registered a couple days ago with protonmail
<lord|>
will I get denied?
<lord|>
I guess I imagine they take into account the email provider you're using
<camb[m]>
those $20 were worth zero in the beginning when Steemit started. that's why they can afford to give you $20 now. the Steem that was once worth nothing and easy to have is now worth a lot.
<camb[m]>
no proton mail should be fine. I'm not sure
<lord|>
curious what the actual story is behind the money they give you for free
<lord|>
did they just start the genesis block so that the owners of the site have a huge amount of steem coins
<camb[m]>
They might not accept cheap or free email domains for registration. I'm not sure.
<Taoki>
A google address and a phone number - Ouch... big ouch. Privacy friendlyness has also went out the window now :(
<lord|>
or some system that lets them administer arbitrary amount of coins
<lord|>
Taoki: yeah it seems you can't really find a good compromise on this
<lord|>
which sucks
<camb[m]>
lord|: did they just start the genesis block so that the owners of the site have a huge amount of steem coins
<lord|>
I hope they're just hashing that information and throwing it away or something
<camb[m]>
yes basically.
<Taoki>
camb[m]: What I don't understand however is: Why can't you join with 0$, and only enable the cryptocurrency aspect if and when you are interested in also earning cryptocurrency for your videos? Can STEEMIT not allow useage for free under any form?
<camb[m]>
if you want privacy you could pay for it with anonymous crypto instead of trying to get the free account.
<lord|>
wait, you can post on steemit without any coins left, right?
<Taoki>
One alternative: If you don't want to receive money, you can select other users as benefactors that will for you. That is if you can't block the transfers and money must go somewhere.
<lord|>
I don't know why you'd need any steem coins to get started
<Taoki>
Same here
<Taoki>
The payment system should be optional. If that's technically possible with how STEEM works
<Kythyria[m]>
I've seen people claim that Steem exists for the sole purpose of getting those phone numbers.
<Kythyria[m]>
But those people are idiots.
<Taoki>
Yeah I really wouldn't go that far honestly
<Taoki>
If someone needs phone numbers, Golden Pages probably still exists to this day :P
<Kythyria[m]>
Yup
<lord|>
you should really just be able to start off with $0 and give no personal data
<lord|>
then once you can prove a unique identity they will load you up
<lord|>
well, 'prove'
<lord|>
the current system is still a compromise
<Kythyria[m]>
But there's a certain kind of person who believes that the only business model in the world is data mining.
<Taoki>
Exactly
<lord|>
Kythyria: sadly that is somewhat coming true
<lord|>
lol
<Kythyria[m]>
For values of "somewhat" you can drive an entire datacenter jacked up and put on treads through.
<camb[m]>
Am I the only one here on Matrix? are you guy all on freenode? it would be abit less confusing to move this over to the Steem chat.
<lord|>
camb: I have matrix bridged to freenode but only a couple rooms
<Kythyria[m]>
(but that's a human tendency. Say "all X" to mean "one X, there may or may not be more")
<lord|>
maybe I should add #ipfs :P
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<camb[m]>
lord|: I don't know why you'd need any steem coins to get started
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<camb[m]>
Because if you didn't have to pay then you could just create unlimited accounts to spam the network.
<camb[m]>
Taoki: I don't know why you'd need any steem coins to get started
<lordpipe>
hello from matrix
<lordpipe>
camb: but you always have to deal with spam
<lordpipe>
sites like reddit and, well, steemit deal with it with votes
<Taoki>
camb[m]: Does the service still demand them though, or will it later? You said there is a 20$ entry fee... I assume you can't have an account of any sort without that then.
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<camb[m]>
You need to pay to prove you are 1 human. That's the idea. It does not cost anything to post. That's why Steem currently still has a spam problem. The more money you put in to your account or earn through posts and comments, the more your account and vote is worh. you can sell your Steem ower/reputation at any time and then your account becomes worth less.
<lordpipe>
oh cool, haven't used any bridged channels in a while, just noticed that matrix converts nickalerts to matrix nickalerts
<Taoki>
lordpipe: Moderation based on community voting is WAY WAY WAY better than moderation by a select team, company, or government. However it is not perfect either: The mainstream isn't exactly tolerant, and troll teams dedicated to downvoting what they don't like will always exist as well.
<Taoki>
Those who are marginalized by the mainstream are only more marginalized in this case.
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<lord|>
creato: test
<Taoki>
camb[m]: I see. Is that really necessary however? Why not have to prove that only to unlock the ability to work with money?
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<lordpipe>
nickalert conversion doesn't work from irc -> matrix :(
<camb[m]>
Taoki: Because you are not using web of trust sytem and ists difficult to assign value of work without a public leger.
<lordpipe>
probably would work if I had the default yourmatrixusername[m] username
* Taoki
nods
<Taoki>
Another problem with needing a google page and phone number: If the government wants your identity, they'll easily get it then. This won't make DTube friendly to journalists secretly reporting from dangerous regimes, etc.
<lord|>
camb: if you are 1 user with $0 you have the exact same power as 2 users with $0
<lord|>
if you are 2 users with $40 you have twice as much power as 1 user that only got $20 from steemit
<lord|>
so it would make sense for users joining without the free money to not have to give up a unique identity
<camb[m]>
web of trust is the idea of a system for Spam and trust control provided by your "friends"
<camb[m]>
yes. on Steem $0=0 power
<camb[m]>
it's very capitalist still.
<camb[m]>
you can't joun without the free money
<lord|>
ideally you should
<camb[m]>
unless you pay for it.
<camb[m]>
ideally yes. that's web of trust and IPFS though. I don't think blockchain tech can do this for free.
<lord|>
what
<lord|>
you can't just concatenate a bunch of hyped technologies together
<lord|>
to find a solution
<lord|>
cryptographic web-of-trust is a very specific solution to a very specific scenario
<camb[m]>
I'm trying like crazy man :)
<lord|>
and ipfs is another thing alltogether
<lord|>
as well as blockchain
<Taoki>
Idea: Perhaps have a free version and paid version of DTube? The free one would use IPFS the same way, but no blockchain and STEEM involved.
<Taoki>
Then perhaps the two can be better connected in time.
<lord|>
the only thing blockchain provides to steemit is rewards that can actually have value, by being a cryptocurrency that can't be stolen, double spent, etc.
<camb[m]>
lord|: web of trust is a very generic idea to solve spam and trust problems.
<lord|>
idk if it solves it
<lord|>
it hands the task off to the user
<lord|>
which is reasonable
<lord|>
but won't make traditional websites spam-free
<camb[m]>
Taoki: that's possible. just copy Dtube from github and eliminate the Steem options.
<camb[m]>
how so?
<lord|>
I just want a youtube alternative with no ads that allows you to attach cryptocurrency addresses to profiles
<lord|>
and the site itself doesn't give a fuck about the cryptocurrency part of it
<lord|>
other than displaying the address so that people can use some browser extension to one-click reward content creators or something
<lord|>
I heard the brave browser was experimenting with this as an alternative to the horrible idea of including ads in the browser itself
<camb[m]>
Web of trust should make your machine not run any code that you and your froends don't trust. If you can't trust your friends I think you are screwed either way. What will we do if we can't trust our friends?
<lord|>
camb: why are videos and articles running code on your computer??
<lord|>
lol
<camb[m]>
lord|: you want retroshare that sadly doesn't have a mobile app yet.
<camb[m]>
lord|: I don't think I like the Brave browser idea either.
<lord|>
not sure what retroshare has to do with the problem I'm talking about
<lord|>
of donating to high quality content creators
<Taoki>
camb[m]: Oh... so all of the primary functionality is open-source? That is quite a game changer for the better.
<lord|>
yeah most of the youtube alternatives popping up are open source it seems
<lord|>
open source is almost a prerequesite to being federated so
<lord|>
prerequisite*
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<lord|>
wait, is d-tube federated?
<camb[m]>
Yes, Steem adn Dtube are all open source. I wouldn't waste time on anything that wasn't.
<lord|>
I think it is
<camb[m]>
dtube is distributed blockchain that's a little different than fedreated networks.
<lord|>
peertube was the federated one then
<camb[m]>
yes.
<camb[m]>
also a promising project.
<lord|>
ah yeah, so dtube is a centralized thing that lets you publish video content to ipfs and receive cryptocurrency donations?
<Taoki>
Does dtube contain both the interface used for the html, as well as the blockchain used to keep track in the videos in IPFS?
<camb[m]>
block chain costs money and caters to those with money. Federation is a web of trustiod "friends"
<Taoki>
So if you forked it, you could easily create your own DTube site with your own rules and what not?
<lord|>
camb: lol yeah I don't know why we need to apply blockchain to everything
<camb[m]>
lord|: yeas basically.
<lord|>
blockchain is a great idea for rewards
<lord|>
not a good place to, i.e. store data
<lord|>
or store peaches
<Kythyria[m]>
> **Closed** federation is a web of trustiod "friends"
<Kythyria[m]>
FTFY
<camb[m]>
but it's open source so you can copy dtube to yoursite.com and make it yours.
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<lord|>
because a non-organic peach farmer could set the "organic" bit on their peaches and enter that into the blockchain
<lord|>
and the whole system comes tumbling to the ground
<Taoki>
So you need a yoursite.com. It would have been cool if it worked fully in IPFS, so that not even the site would need to be hosted on a central server.
<Taoki>
Or actually it might?
<lord|>
Taoki: it theoretically does work fully on ipfs
<Taoki>
I mean can you fork DTube, do an "ipfs add" to put it in the network, and run it from there?
<lord|>
I don't know why the content aggregation part of it has to be decentralized
<lord|>
a website makes decisions on how to prioritize content and that's how youtube, reddit works
<Taoki>
Yeah
<Kythyria[m]>
Taoki: You still need to refer to it via IPNS or your browser will think it's a whole new site every time there's a new version.
<lord|>
Taoki: well
<lord|>
you could view the video files directly
<Taoki>
But can a fork of DTube with website included be ran fully in IPFS, so you can access it from a hash on there?
<Kythyria[m]>
And then you have centralness of control.
<lord|>
probably not
<Kythyria[m]>
And any retrieival interface will make decisions on how to prioritise content.
<Taoki>
Kythyria[m]: Still better than nothing. Sounds good if it works that way :)
<lord|>
now
<Taoki>
At least you can make a video site anonymously then.
<lord|>
there might be a way to have an ipfs page
<camb[m]>
Taoki: Perhaps have a free version and paid version of DTube? The free one would use IPFS the same way, but no blockchain and STEEM involved.
<camb[m]>
Yes you can
<lord|>
that shows title, video, and description
<Kythyria[m]>
However, people will likely say "does not prioritise content" when they mean "prioritises it in a way I agree with"
<lord|>
of a particular dtube video
<lord|>
based on the URL hash
<Taoki>
Kythyria[m]: As far as prioritizing content goes, one feature I would like: Give users tags they can customize, so they can choose to see what they want to see more of.
<lord|>
camb: but then you could literally just
<lord|>
upload videos to ipfs
<lord|>
the whole point of dtube is to provide a listing of popular content, right?
<lord|>
you couldn't grab that listing from ipfs only
<Taoki>
Yeah... an interface and a place where everyone can see it, and also like + comment + add to playlists.
<camb[m]>
lord|: Yes you can. But what website will your friends see it on and how will you get paid?
* Taoki
may be semi AFK from chat
<lord|>
1. they won't 2. you'll get paid directly if you provide a crypto address alongside the video content
<lord|>
there's no dynamic content on ipfs without some sort of centralization
<lord|>
and even then you got ipns which certainly isn't wonderful for all purposes
<lord|>
to me
<lord|>
ipfs is just the early internet filesharing/web portals paradise
<lord|>
you discover content not via massive corporations that curate it all for you
<Kythyria[m]>
Not even the portals part.
<Kythyria[m]>
Just the filesharing part.
<camb[m]>
lord|: looks like we're on the same page. So what do you recommend for centralization of dynamic content?
<lord|>
but spontaneously via portals, your friends, and maybe some crappy search engine that really doesn't have much, etc.
<Kythyria[m]>
Uh... "massive corporations that curate it all for you" is literally the point of web portals.
<lord|>
Kythyria: you can publish a homemade web portal on ipfs and then never touch it again
<Kythyria[m]>
I've never seen that definition of "portal" used.
<lord|>
Kythyria: lol were you not there for the early web
<Kythyria[m]>
"portal" as in "literally any list of links to external resources whatsoever"?
<lord|>
where random idiots would put a bunch of links on their home webserver
<lord|>
and then someone else would stumble across it
<lord|>
and go down an internet rabbit hole
<lord|>
camb: seen that, am highly skeptical
<Kythyria[m]>
As opposed to the more common usage of "website integrating content and functionality on a wide range of topics, in a somewhat coherent manner"
<lord|>
camb: I'm sure it's a good search engine if you want to 1. expose your search terms to your peers instead of a large company 2. go through pages and pages and pages finding what you want, simply because a decentralized algorithm just can't do such a task as effectively
<lord|>
it's just not a replacement for google
<lord|>
guess you can still call it a search engine, but it isn't google/duckduckgo/bing/yahoo
<lord|>
where you can ask it random questions and get an answer very quickly
<camb[m]>
lord|: No but it's the best alternative.
<miflow[m]>
"can't do such a task as effectively" why?
<lord|>
the bigger problem
<lord|>
how the hell does YaCy prevent the distribution of garbage data?
<camb[m]>
lord|: grabage data is not ditributed along the netwrok because noone calls to store it.
<Kythyria[m]>
flowpoint: Beyond the considerable overhead trying to do anything in a fully P2P environment you mean?
<lord|>
camb: not sure what you mean
<camb[m]>
lord|: I mean that you will not receive junk search results because Yacy eliminates results with low value.
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<lord|>
how the hell do you measure value
<lord|>
some potentially useful search results will never be clicked
<lord|>
until one day
<camb[m]>
it wont be as fast as a central server, but it performs well in my opinion. it needs more users. That's the only reason google is better. It capitalizes on your input.
<lord|>
but does this capitalize on your input, just in a decentralized way?
<Kythyria[m]>
If it does, now instead of telling only google your input you're telling the whole world.
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<Kythyria[m]>
Also, I bet google have put a lot of effort into refining their search functions beyond just "throw user secrets at it"
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<miflow[m]>
right, the overhead is present, but when looking at the growths of processing and storage in comparison to networking performance, i think p2p can get the edge
<Kythyria[m]>
So Yacy has zero-knowledge computation over internet-sized indexes?
<camb[m]>
you might as well tell the whole world instead of just google. Let the little fish eat and everyone gets more. There are plenty of privacy options in Yacy so noone will know what yoy search for.
<Kythyria[m]>
That's impressive.
<Kythyria[m]>
flowpoint: It can't. Ever.
<camb[m]>
kythyria: So Yacy has zero-knowledge computation over internet-sized indexes?
<Kythyria[m]>
camb: As in, it really _does_ ensure nobody can find out what you searched for.
<camb[m]>
not sure what you mean.
<Kythyria[m]>
camb: The total amount of resources dedicated to that P2P system _will_ be bigger than the total amount of resources dedicated to the centralised system _counting end user clients_.
<camb[m]>
kythyria: of course it can. p2p will grow bigger than any centralized system.
<miflow[m]>
kythyria: whats your opinion on ipfs then 😱
<lord|>
just downloaded YaCy
<Kythyria[m]>
The total resource usage of an end-user client instance will certainly be bigger.
<lord|>
it seems it has a local search mode that only searches the local index?
<camb[m]>
kythyria: There are ways to make yacy completely private yes. you do get better results if you share your indexes and thus use indexes of your connections.
<lord|>
I have a feeling that mode isn't very useful until your hard drive is filled to the top lol
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<camb[m]>
lord|: That is trie sadly.
<camb[m]>
*true
<Kythyria[m]>
How useful is it actually going to be if it's limited to the data your specific node has been able to collect?
<camb[m]>
you can use tor or I2P to anonymize yacy p2p searches of course.
<camb[m]>
kythyria: Still more useful than telling google everything ou want to know.
<Kythyria[m]>
What
<Kythyria[m]>
So a Yacy node that has never communicated with any other node is more likely to produce a useful result than google is?
<camb[m]>
no
<camb[m]>
if you run a yacy node you can trust that the result was chosen to be of value by people you choose to trust instead of trusting google to feed you good advetising.
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<Kythyria[m]>
You pretty much have to be using a Tor to make Yacy both private and useful, then.
<camb[m]>
yes you do
<Kythyria[m]>
Yacy is closed federation, then?
<camb[m]>
what do you mean by closed?
<miflow[m]>
no, you just have to use good peers, which is the same for privacy in tor or others
<Kythyria[m]>
Node operators have to manually agree to communicate.
<camb[m]>
It's quite open. yacy automatically federates with anyone it can find.
<Kythyria[m]>
Oh, so it's not "people you choose to trust" it's "random other yacy users"
<camb[m]>
you can change the settings of course.
<lord|>
Kythyria: default mode is to talk to other random peers
<Kythyria[m]>
So that's "if you run a yacy node in a way which is not the default and which is extremely manual"
<Kythyria[m]>
"and you use tor"
<Kythyria[m]>
(also interesting, are you claiming google's results contain unmarked advertisments?)
<camb[m]>
then you have the best possible privacy in a search engine in my opinion.
<camb[m]>
kythyria: (also interesting, are you claiming google's results contain unmarked advertisments?)
<camb[m]>
yes, absolutely.
<Kythyria[m]>
Of course, it won't be very useful, becuase you'll have to somehow find trustworthy peers who have the information you want.
<Kythyria[m]>
[[citation needed]]
<Kythyria[m]>
AFAIK they've never done that.
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<camb[m]>
Yeas, you need to be able to trust someone you know in real life for all this.
<Kythyria[m]>
Oh, so it's useless then.
<Kythyria[m]>
Seriously, such a system is completey useless as it can never be bootstrapped.
<camb[m]>
lol. maybe you can find 1 person you trust. that's a good start. I'm in the same boat no worries.
<camb[m]>
Bootstrapping requires trusted seed nodes. I'm not aware how you would bootrap without.
<Kythyria[m]>
I mean, you cannot bring up a node from blank.
<Kythyria[m]>
Because you don't have anyone to trust at that point.
<miflow[m]>
finding 100% trustworthy peers is impossible, but you have finegrained control there, vs google and other huge (cartells) where you are kinda stuck with the peers you chose once
<Kythyria[m]>
If only there was some sort of system wherein you could locate information via a telecommunication network.
<camb[m]>
If you don't have 2 people you can trust you are screwed. I would love to hear how you could solve that,
<Kythyria[m]>
flowpoint: Because it's impossible to stop using google and start using a different search engine?
<miflow[m]>
"don't have anyone to trust at that point." thats like not trusting a genesis block, thatll never get you anywhere
<Kythyria[m]>
camb: The set of people who meet "trust someone you know in real life for all this" and the set of people who meet "are likely to ever have a slightly useful yacy index" does not overlap.
<Kythyria[m]>
It is unlikely to ever overlap.
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<miflow[m]>
you can, but who does? example: there is 1 google entity(employee) you dont trust, you cannot just exclude him, in contrast to yacy where its like 1 line code
<camb[m]>
kythyria: That is a real problem, but with only a few people to trust, Yay becomes very useful.
<Kythyria[m]>
"useful"
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<miflow[m]>
if you want nuanced control, you cant use google ...
<Kythyria[m]>
If you want nuanced control... hahaha good luck
<miflow[m]>
or any big cartellised project
<Kythyria[m]>
You're going to need a huge number of peers, or queries that propagate very far through the graph, to have serious reach.
<Kythyria[m]>
How big is the combined index of Youtube, Wikipedia, and MSDN?
<camb[m]>
kythyria: Its not that bad. even on a minimal VPS I'm getting good results. have you tried it yet?
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<Kythyria[m]>
Is that in paranoid mode or in "connect to the regular open federation" mode?
<camb[m]>
It willl be nowhere as expansive as google, but you can tune it to what is really important to you.
<Kythyria[m]>
Sure, with a lot of effort.
<Kythyria[m]>
And good luck finding the particular peers to connect to, although that's pretty easy, since apparently you went from "nobody" to "enough peers you know in real life to have good results" without much difficulty.
<miflow[m]>
kythyria: whats your opinion on ipfs then, as the same arguments probably apply?
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<camb[m]>
kythyria: I'm not trying to sell you something.
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<Kythyria[m]>
flowpoint: At the very least, the size of a node left to its own devices with no local data is going to get bigger over time. And an IPFS client _cannot_ be as mobile friendly as a HTTP client.
<Kythyria[m]>
It's literally not possible.
<Kythyria[m]>
(also, again, you'll have to add tor to the stack if you don't want half the network knowing what chunks you're retrieiving)
<Kythyria[m]>
And IPFS is designed around a content-addressable storage, so the "you need trusted peers" question applies much less.
<miflow[m]>
👍 i was speaking of decentralized search in general above, sure yacy isnt perefect
<camb[m]>
kythyria: do you have better suggestions? Are you saying we should just keep using Google and Facebook?
<Kythyria[m]>
I'm saying your claims that yacy is better... need a pinch of salt and very specific definitions of "better"