mnemoc changed the topic of #linux-sunxi to: Allwinner/sunxi development discussion - did you try looking at our wiki? - Don't ask to ask. Just ask and wait! - - Logs at
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<libv> hrm, no bloody miracle my123 his tablet didn't boot, he added all sorts of unnecessary stuff to uboot to begin with
<quitte> libv: do you happen to know if uboot touches the axp209 configuration?
<libv> quitte: not off the top of my head, but i expect it does
<libv> you will have to look into that yourself
<quitte> libv: i have some funny behaviour on the ct. I bought a 5V dc-dc covertor. with that as the power source it switches off right aftre spl
<quitte> so there is a reason cubietech put 5.2V on the silkscreen
<quitte> but isn't usb 5.0V nominally?
<libv> quitte: how many A does this deliver?
<quitte> plenty
<quitte> 12V 2.5A and the dc-dc convertor does 2A without and 3A with a heat sink
<libv> quitte: what do you all have attached?
<quitte> nothing
<libv> i have no problems, but i do not currently run an lcd or a sata disk from it
<quitte> if i run without an mmc card there is no u-boot
<quitte> and it stays on
<libv> quitte: with another psu it is just fine?
<quitte> if i put the sd-card in it goes spl->off
<quitte> with usb as a supply it is fine. and that is just over 5.1V
<libv> quitte: too much variance on that 5V?
<libv> or ripple
<quitte> libv: i rather think that it is the diodes voltage drop that brings VCC-5V below 5V if DC-IN is spot on
<quitte> i guess I could short that diode and see if i'm right
<nedko> libv: thank you
<libv> nedko: so what was it that threw you off in this whole story?
<libv> nedko: what is missing from our wiki that could have prevented this messup?
<quitte> what was the messup even? wrong script.bin?
<libv> quitte: wrong u-boot i think
<nedko> libv: that i have to build u-boot from latest sunxi branch with a command: make ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=armv7a-olinuxino_a20-linux-gnueabi- A20-OLinuXino_Lime_config
<libv> the arguments story was not related
<libv> nedko: so you tried A20-OLinuXino_Lime ?
<libv> and it didn't do anything for you?
<libv> and you did not see the line ${TARGET}_config ?
<nedko> libv: i think so, i tried lot of things before asking in the channel. and found a link from the olimex site that was pointing to that third party repo. the wiki page was about a10-lime but i saw that there was a recent commit that added a20-lime config
<nedko> so i didnt even check the sunxi wiki, shame on me
<libv> this _config thing is relatively recent
<libv> the previous version of u-boot was happy with using the target directly
<nedko> yes, this was somewhat confusing
<libv> and the upcoming u-boot has thrown away boards.cfg completely
<nedko> i've switched severa u-boot version in an attempt to make the kernel boot
<nedko> *several
<libv> anyway, there are a few things which are piling up for the device pages, at one point i will add _config everywhere
<libv> nedko: you should've come and complained about your first error
<nedko> libv: again, thank you
<libv> nedko: and you should never go and ask random questions without telling us "oh, i am not running the normal setup"
<libv> because that was the key to this whole story
<nedko> well, i wanted to understand how uboot knows which are the bootargs when bootm is used
<libv> everything before that point was a waste of time
<nedko> libv: yes, you are right, but i somehow assumed that my setup is not normal, because the board is somewhat new
<libv> 01:46 < nedko> libv: because the uboot that works most on this board tries to boot from sata (i think so)
<nedko> libv: yes, in that version of u-boot i saw something like this
<libv> that was the sentence which gave me a hint about what was really going on
<libv> but just a hint
<nedko> libv: so in the end, u-boot's bootm command checks the bootargs variable?
<nedko> in the latest sunxi branch version of uboot i mean
<libv> i guess so
<quitte> no
<libv> i do not know about the mechanics of it
<libv> i never needed to look into that
<quitte> well it passes it to the kernel
<quitte> but it does no interpretation
<libv> true
<quitte> nedko: did you build a new script.bin from the fex in the wiki while you were at it?
<nedko> quitte: yes i did
<quitte> ah
<quitte> I can't think of a reason why u-boot itself would have made a difference
<nedko> i was missing the fex file for lime
<quitte> ;)
<nedko> but that version of uboot was working without it
<quitte> "that version"?
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<libv> ... but the script.bin is for the kernel, not for ubot
<libv> uboot
<quitte> nedko: by fixing the environment I'm fairly certain that any u-boot that gives you mmc access could have worked
<nedko> quitte: the one linked from here
<libv> quitte: perhaps a broken config in uboot for the a20 lime?
<libv> quitte: there are two a20 limes in our uboot, but only one in our wiki
<libv> thanks to those people who are above editing our wiki
<quitte> libv: by config you mean environment?
<libv> memory setup, sorry
<libv> but no, not environment at all
<quitte> libv: the only difference from what i got out of the wiki for board support is dram config. that clearly worked since u-boot doesn't fit sram
<libv> but it's still strange
<nedko> libv: olimex sells only "lime", the one i ordered few days ago
<libv> nedko: there are two versions
<nedko> yes i saw them in the borad.cfg or something
<libv> nedko: i do not know what the difference is, as no-one bothered to edit to wiki to tell anyone why
<nedko> but i don't know which one i'm running
<nedko> if lime2 is more recent, i'm probably running it
<nedko> it is a revision C board
<libv> please mail the author of the patch that added the second line to uboot
<libv> i have done so more than enough, and at best i get ignored, if not, i get whined at
<libv> complain that no info is in our wiki, and that this is horribly confusing.
<quitte> well... you are a bit rude. but i gain growing respect for you, especially because of your gpl violation work
<libv> quitte: this wiki work, and the fact that we can easily support any device, is what puts us apart from the other, mostly dead, SoC projects
<libv> the fact that we were the first such project puts us ahead, but that's not what keeps us ahead
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<nedko> i got same or very similar error when booting with the stock debian image from olimex as well:
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<nedko> it doesnt look ok for me, i don't have rootfs yet, but that error seems to be about mmc not working properly
<nedko> could be me some lime1/2/3 thing?
<libv> nedko: hrm
<libv> nedko: this is what you get now?
<nedko> libv: yes
<libv> or is this unrelated
<libv> ok, so what is this talk about not having a rootfs?
<nedko> libv: this is with my old kernel, the i use in my non-lime olinuxino
<libv> nedko: *sigh*
<nedko> libv: because i dont have it, or i rather have it but it has no file sin it
<libv> nedko: is your a20 lime working, yes or no?
<nedko> libv: the kernel starts, and shuts down with that error :]
<nedko> mmm, halts
<libv> nedko: ok, now why are you stating things like "i don't have rootfs yet"
<nedko> libv: because this is the error that i expect at this stage, not what i get: mmc0: error -110 whilst initialising SD card
<libv> nedko: are you sure that those aren't just noise and that the kernel isn't just waiting on root?
<libv> on an actually populated /
<quitte> nedko: could you maybe make liberal use of some pastebin?
<nedko> libv: i'm not
<nedko> but i suspect, because i saw very similar error with a sdcard image made by olimex
<nedko> i previously thought the sd card may be bad, but i tried read and write from a cardreader and it was ok
<nedko> i'll populate the rootfs now and is if it helps
<nedko> it doesnt
<nedko> i'll build a latest kernel one
<nedko> s/one/now/
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<libv> i have a sneaking suspicion that MY123 his problems will be magically solved now
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<steev> libv: that onda tablet appears to be available
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<libv> steev: it's a wiki :p
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<steev> libv: doesn't mean i've signed up for an account
<libv> ...
<steev> whereas you just shot out that email about the gpl violations, so
<steev> sorry? i can't be bothered to sign up for forums and wikis for every freaking soc, and then their community counterpart, and then the split from that one, and then the android ones
<libv> it's not as if we're some random android forum with a minute halflife :)
<libv> i believe that i have accounts on all three linux-$soc wikis
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<steev> there's a third?
<steev> sunxi, exynos and
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<naobsd> olimex's lime2 is not sold yet
<libv> steev: rockchip
<libv> steev: although that really is a pretty dead one
<libv> wait and see whether it goes somewhere now with the mainlining, but it doesn't feel like it
<libv> steev: btw, we could really use an NDH page for the aurora
<steev> a what?
<steev> for the what?
<libv> oh, a device page, for the ainol novo7 aurora
<steev> libv: i thought rockchip was what's being used in the uh, project ara thing by googs
<steev> libv: oh, i don't have one, a gentoo dev i know bought one, he said he likes it, maybe i should point him towards that
<libv> i had a quick google earlier to see whether you were just lurking here or whether you actually have that hw
<libv> steev: yeah, please do
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<libv> it once was all over the web that hw, but these days, i don't see many ainols fly by on ebay, and if they do, they're too expensive for me to get another one for the pile
<steev> i poked him at it
<libv> thanks :)
<steev> wait, that's what the ondo is?
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<libv> ndh, yes, new device howto
<steev> libv: no! i meant the aurora
<steev> libv: honestly, i could probably get work to spring one for me, but ehhh, just not worth it
<wens> oliv3r: thanks, will add to wiki
<libv> oh, yes, it's an ainol novo7 aurora, A10, 1024x600 screen, which was pretty nifty back then
<libv> steev: no, i thought you had that lying around
<steev> oh, er
<steev> uh
<libv> it's tough to get these devices from early 2012
<steev> i have.... something, but i don't think i have that
<steev> i have a 10" tablet, but it's still running android
<libv> steev: well, if you have an afternoon, the ndh should get you serial and everything
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<libv> most of the trouble for me these days is taking good pictures and editing them properly
<wens> libv: a list of files for the A80 SDK would be a plus
<libv> ok, i will run a find on maxima
<wens> either that or tar ztf :)
<libv> wens: refresh that dir
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<steev> libv: oh, i did used to ahve one, yeah, but i tossed it out when it broke way back when
<libv> ok :)
<libv> anyway, i had a first pass over the rest of the a80 page
<libv> i will now continue writing out the main gpl violations one...
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<wens> hmm, no android or toolchain bloat in this SDK
<libv> i removed the toolchain
<libv> and it's not the full sdk as far as i understand it
<libv> but it does have the important bits... and blobs :p
<wens> full sdk being?
<libv> i dunno, just no android stuff in there
<libv> apparently
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<Turl> maybe it's a lichee sdk? does it have buildroot?
<libv> yup
<wens> i should finish my sun8i-dma stuff before diving in
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<wingrime> libv: can we now claim sunxi 3.4 are depricated?
<wingrime> And claim, thats will be limited support ...
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<steev> wingrime: what should be used instead?
<wingrime> Mainline
<steev> mainline has gpu support?
<wingrime> No
<steev> ...
<steev> so you want to go from mostly works, to doesn't work at all, and claim the mostly works is unsupported?
<steev> seems legit
<wingrime> I sayed limited
<wingrime> All efforts should be in mainline
<wingrime> And and thats allready reality
<steev> oh i don't disagree that that's where developer efforts should go
<wingrime> So, thats only claim current state
<wingrime> Don't see 3.4 get any new soc's
<wens> the new SDKs also diverge greatly from linux-3.4
<wens> they have backported various APIs onto 3.4
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<wens> wingrime: bad connection?
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<wingrime> Lte
<wingrime> Some movement with phone
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<steev> wens: what did they backport?
* steev wishes he didn't work 2 jobs and have gentoo stuff in his spare time
<wens> steev: clk, dma, pinctrl, those i know of
<steev> eesh
<wens> libv has compared the A23 sdk against linux-3.4
<wens> but afaik that's about as far as anyone has gone
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<oliv3r> morni'n
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<oliv3r> libv: don't be too noisy yet, I'll see what I can get out of sour 2 allwinner engineers first
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<anthony_emtrion> Hello
<anthony_emtrion> CNX software is testting A80 SDK....
<wingrime> olv3r: we have a chance get optimus board?
<oliv3r> wingrime: possibly
<wingrime> I hopee so, I just can't understand who and why get that before linux-sunxis
<wens> wingrime: cause they're press?
<wingrime> ....
<wens> just a guess
<anthony_emtrion> CNX Software is just one personne Blogging from Thailand.
<ccaione> oh, eva added me on linkedin
<oliv3r> wens: i'm writing an email to the AW engineers, but i'm writing it in english
<wens> oliv3r: well they read code, simple English shouldn't be too hard :)
<oliv3r> wens: i can copy/paste it to you first and you can proof read it and maybeadd a translation?
<wens> my translation would be in trad. chinese
<oliv3r> would that be bad?
<oliv3r> would they be able to understand that better?
<wens> fonts aside, phrases are slightly different
<wens> i suppose it would help
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<oliv3r> Thank you very much for your help. We will discuss internally about our next step support to Sunxi.Will keep you posted.
<oliv3r> from eva about the list of e-mail address :)
<wens> oliv3r: mail it to me, i'll translate, paragraph by paragraph, and mail it back to you
<oliv3r> wens: check your email and say what you think
<wens> typo spotted :p
<oliv3r> wens: feel free to fix it :p
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<wens> found that wikipedia is a good place to lookup proper phrases :p
<wens> this is going slower than i expected, maybe my chinese isn't as good as i thought
<wens> oliv3r: btw, we already have the a31 manuals, shared by jonsmirl
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<wens> oliv3r: and i think boot0/boot1 aren't GPL, as they're written by aw completely
<wens> i may be wrong
<oliv3r> you are wrong
<oliv3r> they use GPL licensed code
<oliv3r> and they admitted that, as they so far, released boot0 for a10, a20 and we have u-boot code (with dram stuff) for A31
<oliv3r> wens: can you remove the a31 usermanual bit and upload it to the wiki?
<wens> well then they stripped it pretty clean :(
<oliv3r> boot0 code?
<oliv3r> they copy/pasted some bits and pieces
<wens> yeah, we have a31 boot0/1 for a31 from merrii's sdk
<oliv3r> some trivial stuff
<wens> great, that's a bit hard to match in a quick run through
<oliv3r> but since they allready agreed and released code, we're 'okay'
<wens> oh, you were asking for permission to publish a31 manuals, so i'll leave that in
<oliv3r> and we only really care about is dram stuff
<oliv3r> oh, and AXP user manuals :)
<wens> axp manuals we have, mostly from cubie and omilex i think
<wens> updated ones for axp221 and axp221s were from jonsmirl
<oliv3r> ok
<oliv3r> so no worries there then
<oliv3r> and the A80 axp? 239 or something?
<wens> 809 and 806
<oliv3r> ah that
<oliv3r> we have docs for that?
<wens> i think the license for the a23 manual was dubious as well
<oliv3r> i doubt these engineers will give us 'permission'
<wens> nope
<oliv3r> so might aswell elave out the a31 usermanual request and just say we have it
<wens> that you should take up with eva and ben i suppose :)
<wens> but yeah, i'll rephrase it
<oliv3r> cool thanks
<MY123> libv: Any recommendation, the Android doesn't even boot from MicroSD, PhoenixSuit is apparently the only choice
<MY123> ?
<MY123> ( or I badly copied it)
<oliv3r> MY123: what does the uart say about your microsd booting?
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<MY123> oliv3r: Tablet and I've not opened it yet.
<MY123> oliv3r: Will retry.
<oliv3r> MY123: if you are experimenting with booting from various sources, you need uart really
<MY123> oliv3r: Discovered the problem . I flashed the compressed image .
<MY123> (a fault)
<MY123> Now restarting with right settings.
<oliv3r> wens: did you read that?
<wens> i did
<wens> hans' message is beyond my abilities to accurately translate
<wens> and didn't hans do LRADC?
<oliv3r> he did
<oliv3r> i also see that simos Xenitellis was in contact with both these guys
<oliv3r> (i need to read the ML more )
<oliv3r> revering*
<oliv3r> so docs should be on their way?
<wens> we can hope :)
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<oliv3r> hmm, i'm reading that thread, and maybe what I sent you is a bit of a duplicate?
<wens> probably :)
<MY123> wens: We can't. They have interrupted everything after joining Linaro. (GPLv2).
<MY123> violatio
<MY123> n
<MY123> s
<wens> oliv3r: any ideas?
<wens> eva added my on linkedin as well
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<skoperst> Its kinda rumor, but still. A single board pc developer that made A10,A20 boards told me Allwinner will not focus on A80 anymore because its price is too high. And they already focus on A83..
<wens> wtf?
<skoperst> I dont like it(as I have a A80 boards on my desk..)
<wens> i just ordered mine yesterday
<skoperst> It will be more for developers boards, and not devices. That what he ment. Thats not too bad but still if there will be only a couple of commercial devices it will be less maintained
<skoperst> which ones? pcduino8?
<wens> optimus
<mnemoc> skoperst: do you know some of the specs of that a83?
<skoperst> Not yet.. I asked him for it
* mnemoc hopes they got rid of the pvr gpu
<skoperst> And I uploaded android device repository
<skoperst> Its called kylin, theres a common and the optimus board device, for all the Android fanboys out here
<mnemoc> skoperst: please ask about SATA as well
<MY123> mnemoc: They did use a PowerVR series 6 with no drivers in the A80.
<mnemoc> did they release linux drivers for A31?
<mnemoc> iirc imagination charges per-OS licenses, so it's "understandable" they didn't pay for linux drivers
<skoperst> MY123: why no drivers? PVR works in my A80 board
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<MY123> skoperst:I'm talking about GNU/Linux not Android.
<skoperst> MY123:I understand. thats unfortunate. Is there a SoC manufacturer that does that? (That actually sells its chips mass market)
<oliv3r> wens: ideas for?
<mnemoc> skoperst: allwinner does it for mali, but not for pvr
<wens> oliv3r: still want the translation or ?
<mnemoc> because of license issues
<MY123> skoperst: Intel Poulsbo. They have at least drivers(now too old to be usable and buggy)
<MY123> (and all their Smartphone SoCs and there CE series)
<wens> mnemoc: a83 probably won't have gmac though :(
<mnemoc> meh :(
<MY123> Poulsbo and A31 (and the A80)are the same for me , trash.
<MY123> ( I own a Poulsbo laptop)
<oliv3r> wens: ah ok, well I'll need to rephrase it and rewrite it :(
<oliv3r> wens: so i'll send you an updated version?
<wens> ok
<oliv3r> wens: i don't wanna see likea w hiney bitch :p
<wens> :)
<anthony_emtrion> poulsbo (aka GM500) is a copy of the PVR SGX no ?
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: It is a PVR SGX with another name
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: I thought so
<MY123> You can even use classic ARM drivers with an emulator, anthony_emtrion.
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: oh! I did not know that
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: Do you work for ImgTech? :P
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: no, not at all !
<MY123> or is there anyone working for ImgTech here?
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<MY123> anthony_emtrion: To know what I do, I reverse-engineer the non-3D parts of the VC4 by BCM.
<anthony_emtrion> To tell the truth, I'm working with other SoC and I don't own any AW SoC. I'm here because I'm curious to see how it goes with AW support in Linux.
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: Which SoC?
<anthony_emtrion> Atmel SAMA5D3x, Freescale i.MX6, TI AM335x....
<oliv3r> wens: ok i read the whole thread, so I now have a better idea as to white to write
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: The AW support is much worse since Allwinner is part of Linaro. They now have lots of GPLv2 violations and hate the community
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: Well I don't understand that at all. Why would you hate the community that help you get known ??
<anthony_emtrion> If there was no community I would'nt even come here and see what happen.
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: Allwinner now hates the community because they don't like to release 'confidential infos' and spend time.
<anthony_emtrion> and without the website made by the community I would not understand the "state" of AW SoC in Linux and how to get info for there SoC.
<anthony_emtrion> I wonder if the other Chinese SoC like Mediatek, Rockchip are doing the same with there community ?
<quitte> playing devils advocate here: had I known the state of AW on linux I would probably not have bought one
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: Let Allwinner suck ! linux-sunxi will now have to reverse-engineer all the A80 blood. All the Chinese SoC have the same problem
<quitte> anthony_emtrion: how's the i.MX6 ?
<MY123> quitte: Fully open with mainline kernel. (and the FOSS etnaviv graphics driver)
<anthony_emtrion> quitte: mainline is getting there, veerrrry slowly be surely. Only problem is the vivante GPU
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: There is etnaviv.
<MY123> ( You should try it)
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: yeah etnaviv is still in developpement.
<quitte> great. it's kind of funny. I considered A20 the better choice since the i.MX6 has its ethernet on too slow a bus for full GBit
<MY123> quitte: The BCM2835 in the Pi is a good choice. (no X11 accelerated drivers but docs !).
<MY123> (and Wayland)
<quitte> What I want is fast sata and ethernet
<MY123> quitte: Intel Atom or Samsung Exynos.
<quitte> and amd a1100 is not becoming a reality fast enough
<MY123> quitte: I have one.
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: The Rpi Ethernet port is provided by a built-in USB Ethernet adapter.
<quitte> MY123: it's cubietruck now. it will do
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: Know that. Microchip LAN9514
<quitte> not an option then
<anthony_emtrion> quitte: I guess you want to do a NAS ?
<quitte> yes
<anthony_emtrion> well cubitruck I would say is your best option for the moment.
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: It is worth noting that the Pi has two general-purpose processors.
<quitte> marvell armada XP seems nice. but their community support does not exist as far as i can tell
<MY123> ( yes have not mispelled, 2)
<anthony_emtrion> there is also the Exynos boards from HardKernel
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: They also have a 5Gbit/sec interconnection bus( the Pi).
<MY123> Now in reverse-enginnering.
<skoperst> the exynos boards from hardkernel have very polished software(from android perspective)
<skoperst> Its my experience with it
<anthony_emtrion> Rpi is so cheap that it doesn't hurt to test first on it.
<anthony_emtrion> skoperst: that's what I've read.
<mnemoc> anthony_emtrion: the lime is just as cheap, but much more powerful and oshw
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<MY123> anthony_emtrion: The problem that all the interfaces faster than USB needs a special ASIC or FPGA to work with them.
<MY123> ( the Pi)
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: and so it's not cheap anymore.
<anthony_emtrion> mnemoc: yes ! it's just that everyone got a Rpi, so that's handy to test first with.
<mnemoc> shame on everything
<mnemoc> shame on everyone*
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<anthony_emtrion> mnemoc:
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: It is a part of the Freeblob project goal to get an affordable ASIC that will be used in the Pi board itself. ( cheaper than a 9514).
<anthony_emtrion> mnemoc: : )
<MY123> Let it. Not ready yet.
<mnemoc> wens: changed the permissions of dl/ to use a group and g+s. if you have any trouble there, or you thing I should add someone else to the group, please let me know
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: thanks I did not know them.
<MY123> The second dual-core CPU in the Pi is without a good GCC port. (custom dual-issue RISC at 250MHz)
<quitte> i haven't tried the rpi myself. but it seems they got that sd-card image thing right. getting rid of android took me far too long with the CT.
<MY123> quitte: The Pi fondation did not, and will NEVER EVER support Android. The newer Pis uses MicroSD.
<quitte> i don't get the appeal of android on pc-like devices
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: The Freeblob project is mine with a few another persons. (community)
<quitte> maybe when google-tv is a reality...
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: I was checking the github
<MY123> anthony_emtrion:
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: You should see that the ARM is just a coprocessor in the Pi.
<MY123> (freeblob/drivers/arm/arm.c)
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: yeah that's interresting !
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<anthony_emtrion> MY123: that's why you have to turn it on at init !
<MY123> anthony_emtrion: If you want to continue, join the invite. It's a bit off-topic here.
<anthony_emtrion> MY123: yeah maybe later, it's lunch time now for me :)
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<jemk> hm, the arisc binaries in A80 sdk contain aes encrypted .tar.bz2s that don't get used anywhere...
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<petrosagg> where does the lichee codename come from?
<mnemoc> they've always called theur SDK that way
<mnemoc> it's a chinese berry
<petrosagg> yeah, I like those berries :)
<mnemoc> :)
<petrosagg> ok, and the other name merrii? is it a person?
<mnemoc> merrii is the marketing name for the division of Wits Techs that makes development boards for individuals
<mnemoc> i guess it's just a variant of "merry" (cheerful)
<petrosagg> got that
<petrosagg> thanks
<mnemoc> yw
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<MY123> kill -9 1
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<arete74> whois mnemoc
<ccaione> mnemoc is a good guy :)
<MY123> arete74: mnemoc is Alejandro Mery ,
<mnemoc> o_O
<arete74> i have need find hans, and try to test if whois command work fine!
<MY123> mnemoc: There is a ZNC plugin enabled inside this client.
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<arete74> i have an problem with uboot 2014.10rc1
<MY123> arete74: What problem?
<arete74> not read uEnv.txt from mmc
<quitte> arete74: I don't think that's something u-boot does by itself
<quitte> insted there is some "script" in the environment that reads uEnv.txt and uses that to set the environment from that
<arete74> quitte: the u-boot-sunxi work fine!
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<quitte> arete74: then look at tis environment with printenv
<quitte> maybe pastebin it
<quitte> preferrably without a uEnv.txt in place
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<paulk-aldrin> oliv3r, new page for my tzx:
<paulk-aldrin> oliv3r, feel free to move the old page to TZX-Q8-713B6, remove the unrelated photos there and rename the fex to tzx-q8-713b6 in sunxi-boards
<paulk-aldrin> oliv3r, or just let me know if you're ok with me doing all that
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<oliv3r_phone> paulk sure go for it :)
<oliv3r_phone> i can do the git mv if you want
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<paulk-aldrin> oliv3r_phone, it's fine, I'll do it as well, especially if you're on a phone now :)
<libv> wingrime: what? no.
<oliv3r_phone> :p well i can do git mv and just push it
<oliv3r_phone> gimme 10m
<paulk-aldrin> sure :)
<libv> wingrime: people should always first do 3.4, or the a23, a31 or a80 kernels directly (why has no-one gone and tested this and written up their findings in THE WIKI?)
<quitte> arete74:,0 some information about uEnv.txt in that article. What environment is that you posted? this does not work with uENV.txt, right?
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<libv> oh, so cnx-software needs the toolchain, but cannot be bothered to tell us that. good.
<libv> wens,oliv3r: if boot0 uses gpled code, then we need to prove that
<wingrime> libv: there some one who will do 3.4 for a22, a31?
<arete74> quitte: yes this enviroment not work with uEnv.txt, i now try with boot.scr.uimg
<quitte> arete74: it is the environment that makes uEnv.txt work.
<quitte> you can use printenv int the working environment and setenv in the other environment
<quitte> if anyone could chime in with information how to load and store a environment from a textfile?
<quitte> I've seen it in some env at some point :/
<libv> hramrach: good idea for main page, but that will still mean that most will miss it as people are blind ;)
<libv> wingrime: there is no a22
<libv> wingrime: secondly, there is no mention of support on a23, a31 or a80 soc pages
<libv> wingrime: because no-one has gone and tested the sdk kernels and reported back and edited the wiki
<libv> wingrime: so if you have a23, a31(s) or a80 hw, and you ran into issues with the manual build howto, write up a page on how to deal with $soc u-boot and kernel separately
<wens> mnemoc: nice :) # permissions of dl/
<libv> and provide the link in the relevant device pages to that replacement manual build howto
<libv> so no-one bothered to tell MY123 that a fixed u-boot is now available :(
<quitte> libv: sorry. I only vaguely recalled you knowing MY123's problem.
<libv> quitte: he copied the full u-boot config for bananapi
<libv> instead of DEVICE_DEFINE,SPL
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<libv> i will have to get into more detail on how to adapt u-boot for a new device there, especially since the wrong CONS_INDEX will stop your device from booting as well
<quitte> libv: I know that u-boot does some things more than enable dram and load timages into ram. for example it provides some function for linux to turn on the second core. I'd like to know more about those other things. With my current understanding if u-boot runs and can access storage it can run linux.
<oliv3r_phone> paulk renamed. jp to you now
<arete74> quitte: with boot.scr work fine! thanks
<libv> quitte: cons_index sets some gpios differently, so it might enable/disable some things which are/were important
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<wingrime> Its diffult to, say clearly, after recent uboot changes I have problems with 3.4
<quitte> ah. probably what kills u-boot with too little voltage on mine. since it has no i2c support it can't be axp
<oliv3r_phone> paul u-boot pro needs some patch ;)
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<paulk-aldrin> oliv3r, U-Boot uses A13_MID
<libv> pfff, why are people _that_ against simplefb gaining a clocks property :(
<libv> paulk-aldrin: please provide a separate patch
<paulk-aldrin> for what?
<libv> paulk-aldrin: i will want to get rid of A13_MID
<paulk-aldrin> good :)
<libv> it's for a totally undocumented device
<libv> which could share nothing with any of the other Q8 (i think) devices
<paulk-aldrin> do I keep its dram file named as-is or move it to a generic name?
<libv> paulk-aldrin: make it generic
<paulk-aldrin> I'll let you remove the A13_MID target though
<libv> as soon as there are two users, try to make it generic :)
<libv> yeah, it won't be removed yet
<paulk-aldrin> ok
<libv> until i get ticked off :p
<libv> ssvb: do you have any more good ideas like "why don't you do simplefb, it'll get us all a display fast" ;p
<paulk-aldrin> I'm not totally confortable with having one target for different devices either, essentially because in Replicant, it'll build all the U-Boots at the same time and I don't like having 2 make running on the same output directory
<libv> paulk-aldrin: i think it also messes up oliv3r, the sole user of the BSP
<libv> paulk-aldrin: but yeah, i prefer having well documented devices, through an through
<libv> (but that's a bit of a given to you now, i'm sure)
<paulk-aldrin> haha :)
<paulk-aldrin> I figured that much, indeed
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<libv> paulk-aldrin: can you set [uart_para]->uart_debug_port = 1
<paulk-aldrin> libv, I figured it's not actually used
<libv> in the fex, and see if that fixes your ttys1 thingie?
<libv> paulk-aldrin: you tell uboot to use a different CONS_INDEX
<paulk-aldrin> well, I'll try, but nothing in the driver indicates that it will have the slightest effect
<libv> ok, then we should go fix the driver :)
<paulk-aldrin> libv, linux still maps it as ttyS1
<paulk-aldrin> libv, well if you think about it, it makes sense
<paulk-aldrin> ttyS0 doesn't *have to* be the serial port for messages
<libv> PG03/04 is what i think i just enabled on the mobii 703
<libv> paulk-aldrin: what if you disable ttyS0?
<libv> [uart_para0]->uart_used = 1
<libv> to 0
<libv> or...
<libv> disable para1
<paulk-aldrin> it won't allocate ttyS1 to ttyS0
<libv> and set the GPIOs to uart_para0
<paulk-aldrin> the ports are not used either
<libv> hrm
<libv> then why do we have these :)
<paulk-aldrin> no idea
<libv> paulk-aldrin: i just fixed my mobii 703
<libv> because it used PG03/04
<paulk-aldrin> as far as I can see, only uart_para is used
<libv> ah, yes
<libv> check out that fex :)
<libv> pov_mobii_703.fex
<libv> that's what you need to do :)
<libv> [uart_para]
<libv> and then CONS_INDEX=2 for uboot
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, also, why the hell is the index starting at 1 in u-boot?
<libv> paulk-aldrin: dunno :)
<libv> paulk-aldrin: it's uboot?
<libv> or did one of us do that?
<paulk-aldrin> seems to be the whole u-boot
<libv> after my cfbconsole work, i am not surprised
<libv> we should move to barebox.
<paulk-aldrin> lol
<paulk-aldrin> libv, I did try inverting the PG* stuff btw, it had no effect
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, are you sure that had any effect at all on your board?
<libv> compared the fexes
<libv> this is how it is done on the 703
<paulk-aldrin> (I don't have pov_mobii_703.fex btw)
<libv> it's in sunxi-boards
<libv> oh, pov_tab_p703.fex
<paulk-aldrin> I just pulled
<paulk-aldrin> ah
<paulk-aldrin> pov_tab_p703.fex
<paulk-aldrin> so uart_used are all off currently
<paulk-aldrin> I bet that only turning them to 1 solved your issue
<libv> oh, nope
<libv> i didn't touch those
<libv> it just works with that and the uboot change
<libv> hah
<libv> those things are indeed just dead weight
<paulk-aldrin> libv, well, you probably can't spawn getty
<paulk-aldrin> but dmesg will get through, yes
<libv> aaah, true
* libv fires up that machine again
<paulk-aldrin> and you'll need to spawn it on ttyS1
<libv> seems like we have very similar hw in this sense, so we can go try a few different things
<paulk-aldrin> no way around that, except for rewriting the driver to actually care about the rest of the fex configs
<paulk-aldrin> libv, looks like my other a13 behaves the same, too
<libv> so even if you disable the first uart, it still doesn't get called ttyS0
<libv> hrm :(
<paulk-aldrin> right
<libv> sounds like a driver fix would indeed be good
<paulk-aldrin> I would still ignore the uart_tx/uart_rx
<libv> but first, we need to add a lot of stuff to uart howto
<paulk-aldrin> but taking uart_port in account would be nice
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<paulk-aldrin> mhh, I must eat first
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<codekipper> libv: Yo..I'm starting to document my Mele I7...would you prefer a seperate page or shall I bundle it under the Mele M9(which is another A31 HTPC)
<codekipper> I can get the fex's for the other devices from the latest firmware releases to add to both wiki/git
<hramrach> libv: at least it is linked *somewhere*
<hramrach> anyone has some idea if there is support for GSLX680 touchscreen?
<wens> there's a userspace driver
<libv> hramrach: but it _is_
<libv> hramrach: did you see the "Allwinner based devices" section right above it?"
<hramrach> hmm, that's the driver with some weird firmware you have to extract from original module
<hramrach> or what is the userspace driver?
<libv> codekipper: is the motherboard the same?
<codekipper> almost....
<libv> codekipper: explain
<codekipper> 2secs I'll get them both up
<hramrach> no. because I read the hardware list section ;-)
<wens> hramrach: yes
<libv> hramrach: so i now provided 2 correct links, in the right order, for people like you :p
<libv> hramrach: but good idea
<codekipper> libv: extra flash on I7 although not soldered
<libv> some people will indeed skip that
<libv> codekipper: hrm, could be a revisional difference or more
<libv> codekipper: start with a separate page
<libv> we can always merge later
<codekipper> sure
<libv> thanks :)
<codekipper> I'll tidy up the other page as best as I can
<codekipper> it was a bit of a bargain $60 and recieved after 10 days
<libv> :)
<libv> paulk-aldrin: i added the manufacturer
<libv> tzx does more than just cases these days, but of course, they haven't bothered to do anything to their website
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, thanks
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, sunxi-boards and u-boot patches are ready
<paulk-aldrin> libv, once that is merged, I suppose there is nothing standing in the way of being NDH_TODO-free?
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<libv> paulk-aldrin: fix up the different ram sizes, add a link to Format_Q8#A13_based in See Also
<libv> and then, yes
<paulk-aldrin> right
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<libv> i still need to pass over the other Q8 tablets to add a proper see also link
<MY123> libv: Oops. Responded on e-mail instead of IRC.
<MY123> libv: The A20-Olinuxino-Micro images have not a partition table , is that normal?
<MY123> (SD and Android)
<libv> MY123: forget about the olimex images.
<libv> MY123: i told you before to not pull such crazy stuff
<libv> you got real lucky
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<MY123> libv: OK. How to build u-boot now? (the only compiler I have is the Android NDK , should it work?)
<libv> ...
<libv> *sigh*
<libv> MY123: dl a linaro one
<longsleep> So anyone can point me to some docs or code how i can put a working u-boot into mtd/nand?
<libv> longsleep: mtd is too early days
<libv> longsleep: our wiki has a page called NAND
<libv> start reading there
<longsleep> libv: well i got mtd working and all including fs and everthing
<longsleep> libv: i did that last week :) - i am running mainline with very latest bbrezillons patches.
<longsleep> libv: Right - i got the driver and an UBIFS rootfs. I am search for infos on what to put into mtd0 and mtd1 (mtd2 has UBI and UBIFS).
<libv> longsleep: again, early days
<libv> talk to bbrezill1, quitte, and petrosagg
<longsleep> libv: i know - very early. But bbrezill1 said he did it if i remember correctly. So i was wondering if he might have written somewhere about it. Else i have to experiment a lot myself :)
<libv> he has afaik, not touched our wiki
<longsleep> longsleep: i am looking more for a overview kind of thing how it is suppoesed to work rather than exact docs.
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<libv> even though all got instructed to start filling it up
<MY123> libv: Where? only puts GNexus and another platforms things.
<libv> is where it is at
<libv> longsleep: if what you need is not there, whine at bbrezill1, quitte, and petrosagg
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<longsleep> libv: Ok great :) i was hoping thanks
<longsleep> +e
<wens> that simplefb thread is getting pretty long
<libv> wens: i do not understand why the nvidia guys are so against this
<libv> also, they kind of lost track from where it started
<MY123> libv: What thing about Linaro? Google doesn't put nothing useful.
<libv> MY123: just a sec, i am not your exclusive property.
<libv> oh great, linaro moved things again
<libv> they do so even more than u-boot.
<wingrime> simplefb is just use som mem for fb out or more?
<MY123> libv: The NDK crashes with the linking. syscall_**** not found. There should not be linking with the system libs.
<libv> MY123: do not use the NDK
<libv> stop throwing random shit around
<MY123> libv: Is there GNU/Linux PhoenixSuit A20 images and a FOSS packer/unpacker to replace u-boot and the script.bin?
<MY123> (can have a temp Windows install for try)
<libv> <up><enter>
<MY123> libv: Why shit?
<libv> oh great.
<libv> urls are<release_year>.<release_month>/components/toolchain/gcc-linaro
<libv> gcc-4.6 is 14.06 while gcc-4.7 is 14.04
<libv> smart.
<libv> err, 4.7 and 4.8
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<bbrezill1> libv: sorry if I don't have as much time as you to work on the Wiki
<MY123> libv: Thanks. Will try to build.
<libv> bbrezill1: it's not about having time, it is about making time
<libv> bbrezill1: if you want people to use your code, you should make sure that they _can_ use your code
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<libv> it's all good and well rubbing yourself in some corner somewhere, but if you want users, you must give them a bit more than just the code, and it does not take much in our case, as most information that is not related to the mtd subsystem is already on our wiki, and you're welcome.
<bbrezill1> libv: but I'm happy to review quitte_ and petrosagg documentation ;-)
<libv> please do, perhaps you even have some things that you can add
<libv> now that they have created the page, please use that page to document things as you go, once you have added what you need to add first
<libv> MY123: that doesn't matter
<libv> that part of the fex is ignored anyway.
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<arete74> quitte_: the env bootenv for sunxi not contain uEnv.txt parameter, other board have this parameter, example bealge ./include/configs/omap3_beagle.h: "bootenv=uEnv.txt\0"
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<libv> MY123: the toolchain page has now been fixed.
<quitte_> arete74: what you are looking at is the default boot environment. saveenv overwrites it from within u-boot.
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<quitte_> ... well - doesn't overwrite it. default is used if no good environment can be found at the offset where uboot expects it to be on the mmc
<libv> paulk-aldrin: did you manage to test the CONS_INDEX and [uart_para] changes?
<quitte_> arete74: if you have console access uEnv.txt is not that useful. simply change the env directly
<quitte_> less confusing, too. complex environments are horrible
<paulk-aldrin> libv, I was already going with CONS_INDEX=2 (no output at all without it), and uart_para1 had to have uart_used = 1 to be able to use getty
<paulk-aldrin> libv, the patch I sent has it already
<arete74> quitte_: i not have console access, i connect via ssh, modify uEnv.txt and reboot
<libv> ah, ok
<libv> good, committing
<quitte_> arete74: oh. then you in fact have to fix the default environment to work with uEnv.txt. or simply use the working u-bbot. why would you want a newer one?
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<quitte_> arete74: there are tools to modify u-boot environment in openwrt. I don't know if they work with mmc.
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<arete74> quitte_: i try to test the simplefb + menu for uboot
<MY123> libv:DZ
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<quitte_> arete74: you really should get a serial connection then
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<MY123> Now downloading,...
<paulk-aldrin> libv, I have U-Boot config ready for Ampe A76, but Linux still crashes on NAND
<libv> :(
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<arete74> quitte_: i try to use fonera for connect serial to cubie2 via networking
<paulk-aldrin> and it actually didn't work with the tzx script.bin
<paulk-aldrin> libv, if I can't get it to work, I'll probably just push the fex with nand disabled (if that's actually effective), as the rest is working fine
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<libv> yeah, that makes sense
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, I'll relocate soon, so I'll just send A76 U-Boot now and the fex later
<paulk-aldrin> clear for NDH_TODO?
<libv> paulk-aldrin: yup
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<Master_Crumble> hey whats up? :)
<Master_Crumble> someone already tried to get a kernel running on a31 device?
<libv> wiki says no
<Master_Crumble> reason why im asking :) but i dont understand why allwinner has stopped the communication back to the community
<libv> Master_Crumble: there is some hope again ow
<libv> now even
<libv> but wait and see, i won't hold my breath, only results are telling heer
<libv> and the current result is that A80 has severely increased the amount of binary blobs
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<Master_Crumble> more binary blobs?
<Master_Crumble> not the best news
<Master_Crumble> :D
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<Master_Crumble> the linux-sunxi project is a good thing for allwinner
<Master_Crumble> more customers if you thin kin this way
<Master_Crumble> i think banana pi pushed them a bit up , too
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<libv> paulk-aldrin: can you fix the spaces vs tabs thing on the 86vz line you just touched?
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, yuk, I didn't notice it
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<paulk-aldrin> libv, done
<skoperst> Tried to get some info about A83, nothing.. company secret
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<libv> hramrach: don't paste random stuff in the wiki
<libv> hramrach: follow the ndh
<libv> hramrach: do you see other device pages which have this?
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<libv> paulk-aldrin: isn't that a tab too much?
<paulk-aldrin> libv, align correctly in gedit
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<libv> ah, you're right
<paulk-aldrin> +s
<libv> i should've known, donkey, stone, etc
<libv> hramrach: this about tablet multiple tapping stuff, is this more generic information that applies to some android versions?
<libv> quitte_: the CONS_INDEX will be written up later, in either u-boot bringup or uart pages
<libv> paulk-aldrin: as for the nand on the ampe, describe that under tips/tricks/caveats
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<libv> add a {{Remove|TODO: Fix me!}}
<libv> perhaps disable the nand in the fex for the time being?
<paulk-aldrin> libv, well, I'll probably see mupuf tonight, I'll try to debug that with his wisdom
<kill_-9_1> MY123 is now here
<paulk-aldrin> worst case scenario, I push with nand disabled
<paulk-aldrin> first thing tomorrow morning, if it fails
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<libv> paulk-aldrin: also, can you describe how to use the plastic tool? how does which cover move?
<libv> ... to pop the clips
<paulk-aldrin> I'll try
<libv> paulk-aldrin: mupuf doesn't know anything but nouveau power management :p
<paulk-aldrin> libv, that's what he wants you to think ;)
<paulk-aldrin> actually, he helped me a lot in debugging i2c on another device
<paulk-aldrin> (his numeric oscilloscope was also of good help)
<libv> :)
<libv> digital, right
<libv> numeric is almost french :)
<paulk-aldrin> my bad, force of habit
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<paulk-aldrin> in french, digital refers to your fingers
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* rz2k watches charbax video about cubietech
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<rz2k> so hipboi left/sold it and now it is a two floor large office? I remember when we did crowdfund or something to make first batch.
* rz2k feels sort of old
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<CaptHindsight> way back about 2 years ago
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<kill_-9_1> Will allwinner release a 64-bit chip?
<libv> if so, it will be called sun64ip1w1
<libv> and A160
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<libv> kill_-9_1: are you getting anywhere with the new toolchain?
<kill_-9_1> libv: OOM killer.
<libv> ?
<kill_-9_1> libv: My only x86 PC is a Celeron Mendocino @ 400MHz with 64MB of RAM. Just not enough memory.
<libv> indeed
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<dack> libv: any luck with libnand?
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<libv> dack: i have not been able to get to that
<dack> libv: understandable. I just thought I'd check.
<dack> I still haven't been able to get a flash image for my device. The time difference with China makes for long message return times.
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<kill_-9_1> libv: Will install Debian somewhere in one of my ARM devices.
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<oliv3r> paulk: if you backread this; sunxi-boards filename should match boards.cfg (the bsp)
<libv> oliv3r: did you write that into the wiki already?
<kill_-9_1> libv: Should it work on my ARM9 with 128MB of RAM system?
<kill_-9_1> (the build)
<libv> nope
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<oliv3r> libv: i think paj, was doing the otner cnanges
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<libv> wtf
<libv> old marsboard a20
<libv> new marsboard a20
<libv> and the same person just filling it with the template and what you can find off the website
<libv> i already sent him a mail reading "how about you..."
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<physis> hi guys. I'm with very strange behavior on XBMC... After 2 or 3h running fine h.264 video XBMC crashs. And I'm flooded with "[DISP] not supported image0 pixel sequence:8 in img_sw_para_to_reg" messages. Someone has similar problem?
<libv> i am thinking about locking down the new page
<libv> with a big fat message on top: fix the other one first.
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<libv> hramrach: you attempted to link to an image on a vendor page?
<libv> hramrach: really?
<libv> hramrach: please, follow the ndh
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<libv> MY123: let me build you a set of uboot binaries
<libv> grmbl, and a kernel as well.
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<libv> a20 is soo huge
<libv> paulk-collins: stop ndhing, fix the default configs
<libv> no!
<libv> continue ndhing, don't fix the default configs
<libv> no!
<libv> stop ndhing, fis the ... argh
<paulk-collins> exactly. I'll do that!
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<libv> continue ndh first, you're on a roll :)
<kill_-9_1> libv: Will go to the store in a few weeks buying a good Bay Trail tablet/laptop.
<libv> besides, the uart thing will remove some lines from the device pages, and keeps me from adding that info to the wiki :)
<libv> paulk-collins: i just have a longer build and a longer upload, that's all :)
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<libv> so ignore me
<libv> paulk-collins: do you have a github account yet?
<libv> that's the first order of business :)
<paulk-collins> libv, not yet
<paulk-collins> libv, is there a possible scenario where I don't have to create one?
<libv> paulk-collins: not really
<paulk-collins> I'm not overly fond of creating accounts I'm not really going to use
<libv> paulk-collins: what's the problem with github?
<libv> oh, but you are actually going to use this one
<paulk-collins> nothing in particular, I'll just not use it
<libv> that's the whole point of you getting write access to the sunxi repos
<paulk-collins> well, I do have an account on gitorious for replicant, even though I only use it to push to replicant
<paulk-collins> alright, I'll make one
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<paulk-collins> libv, ok, I'm good
<paulk-collins> libv, username is paulkocialkowski
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<paulk-collins> libv, thanks
<libv> it took a while, my main machines browser and github apparently do not agree, so i had to fire up an eeepc to get this done
<paulk-collins> libv, I hope this is not too serious a commitment though
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<paulk-collins> libv, I'm working on sunxi a lot now, but I have a lot of other projects that I need to focus on at times, so I may not contribute for months
<libv> still, you have a small heap of devices to ndh, and you are now quite adept to it
<paulk-collins> yup
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<BrainDamage> hello, does the A20 chip SATA controller supports port multiplexing? the wiki mentions the A10 in the cubieboard faq not supporting it, but no info relative to the A20
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<petrosagg> BrainDamage: I don't know if it answers your question but take a look at page 822 in this PDF
<libv> BrainDamage: no, it does not
<libv> BrainDamage: a20 is an a10 with very little changes.
<libv> mostly: 2 A7s and a more powerful mali
<BrainDamage> aw :/ thanks
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<physis_> hi guys. I'm with very strange behavior on XBMC... After 2 or 3h running fine h.264 video XBMC crashs. And I'm flooded with "[DISP] not supported image0 pixel sequence:8 in img_sw_para_to_reg" messages. Someone has similar problem?
<physis_> I changed from 720p to 1080p but seems no differences.
<libv> physis_: are you using the cedarx blob?
<physis_> libv: yes.
<libv> physis_: feel free to direct your rage at allwinner
<libv> physis_: ... and/or help the REing effort:
<physis_> libv: hehehe
<libv> which does not provide you with a dependable driver yet (but it should, in some future)
<physis_> libv: i'm not sure if the problem is cedar dev or xbmc. Because XBMC crashs
<physis_> libv: I'm using cedrus. Sorry for my confusion. I'm running rella xbmc build that uses Cedrus.
<libv> physis_: then you need to talk to rellla :)
<physis_> hehehe :-)
<physis_> maybe he wakes up here anytime
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<physis> the xbmc code is not so clear for a novice :)
<physis> libv: now I'm a bit confuse here. There are a blob version with creates /dev/cedar dev too?
<libv> physis: the cedarx kernel driver will not be poking the disp kernel driver
<libv> physis: userspace is doing that
<libv> physis: cedrus is not a kernel driver
<libv> physis: so are you using cedrus in userspace, or are you using cedarx?
<libv> my money is on the latter.
<libv> urgh, we dropped under the 1/3rd mark with complete device pages :(
<physis> libv: i'm not sure how xbmc is doing it. I will try to discover.
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<Turl> libv: how come? we got a lot of new full ones from paulk
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<libv> Turl: paulk is not working fast enough