rellla changed the topic of #linux-sunxi to: Allwinner/sunxi /development discussion - did you try looking at our wiki? - Don't ask to ask. Just ask and wait! - - Logs at - *only registered users can talk*
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<tllim> @martinayotte, I agreed with icenowy, the H6 watcdog issue may be broad related rather than chip. We have make several board designs and using several batch of H6 chip at different time. If chip issue and PINE64 still not encounter, then we are god bless.
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<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: TERES-I uses DDR3
<MoeIcenowy> martinayotte: all my Pine H64's don't fail
<MoeIcenowy> tllim: strange thought: could I buy a Orange Pi 3, test WDOG on it, and send it to the SZ office of Pine to get its chip soldered on a Pine H64?
<tllim> I can do the reverse, provide you a H^ chip that PINE64 purchased and you just provide to Orange Pi :-)
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<jo0nas> anarsoul: debug flags applied and reg_dcc1sw added to dtsi - but seemingly no change at all:
<jo0nas> perhaps the notes from another patchset is helpful in what needs enabled: - see esp. the hack at line 23 onwards
<jo0nas> ok
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<jo0nas> during build (possibly also earlier) there's a warning: Missing property '#pwm-cells' in node /soc/interrupt-controller@1c81000
<jo0nas> ...and just before that: /backlight:pwms: cell 4 is not a phandle reference
<jo0nas> (in case those are important here)
<jo0nas> progress: Now SPL wrote "PMIC: AXP803: Enabling DC1SW" as in earlier succesful builds (but still black screen):
<jo0nas> here's boot messages and "dm tree" for a mainline u-boot patched to include your axp803 driver:
<anarsoul> I don't see any debug messages from u-boot
<anarsoul> show 'git diff'?
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<anarsoul> jo0nas: you have to put '#define DEBUG' before all the includes
<jo0nas> oh - sorry!
<MoeIcenowy> tllim: maybe I should ask nearby mobile phone repair providers whether they can do BGA replacement
<MoeIcenowy> tllim: is Pine64 AP6256 module ready now?
<jo0nas> anarsoul: with debug:
<tllim> why not just pass one H6 from PINE64 to Banana Pi? They should have interest to check out.
<tllim> the AP6256 module will ship to you on Monday
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<anarsoul> jo0nas: figure out what regulators power anx6345 and make sure they're enabled
<jo0nas> ok, I'll try... - thanks!
<anarsoul> probably dldo2 and dldo3, but you should check
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<jo0nas> uhm - that sounds like the thing noted at line 23 onwards of the opensuse patch I shared above
<jo0nas> Olimex has the following note in their scematics about powerup: Power UP sequency:\nSet edp_RESET to LOW\nSet DLDO3 to 1.2V\nSet DLDO2 to 2.5V\nup DLDO2\n2 ms delay\nup DLDO3\n10ms delay\neDP_RESET to HIGH
<jo0nas> ...which to me seems to match the hack by opensuse
<MoeIcenowy> maybe I should do some WDOG test program when I have the time
<jo0nas> ...but which I don't know how to express in a DTS
<anarsoul> you don't have to
<jo0nas> is that the info you talked about, or am I looking at the wrong thing?
<jo0nas> if the right info, it seems to me the two voltages are correctly set already now
<MoeIcenowy> tllim: steven now doesn't show a lot of interest on this problem
<jo0nas> anarsoul: rephrased: what more specifically should I check?
<jo0nas> I think I saw notes somewhere that the 2ms delay is important - is that implied in mainline u-boot?
<anarsoul> so basically "anx6345_write: write failed, reg=0x6, value=0x1, ret=33554440" means that anx6345 driver can't talk to the chip
<jo0nas> ok
<anarsoul> jo0nas: try setting 'CONFIG_I2C0_ENABLE' in your config
<jo0nas> ok
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<anarsoul> and I think you can drop 'dc1sw' stuff
<jo0nas> still get "anx6345_write: write failed, reg=0x6, value=0x1, ret=33554440"
<jo0nas> you want the whole console output?
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<jo0nas> (I didn't drop the dc1sw stuff in dtsi file yet)
<jo0nas> I notice that fixed regulator is _not_ used in succesful builds - should I try remove it?
<tllim> @icenowy, then no much I can do. I don't want to take Banana Pi board and change something, this gives people impression about Pine64 try to gain from Banana Pi.
<tllim> s/Bana/Orange/
<jo0nas> anarsoul: I notice that in succesful builds SPL sets dcdc5 to 1.36 V and this build sets it to 1.5 V
<jo0nas> should I try lower that?
<jo0nas> (tried disable DM_REGULATOR_FIXED but apparently no change other than it not sowing up in "dm tree"
<anarsoul> jo0nas: one thing at a time
<anarsoul> try enabling CONFIG_I2C0_ENABLE
<jo0nas> yes. did that. See above
<jo0nas> hmm - no, I failed at that somehow...
<jo0nas> anarsoul: is that perhaps conflicting with CONFIG_R_I2C_ENABLE and I also need to disable that?
<anarsoul> it doesn't conflict, but you can disable R_I2C_ENABLE since you don't need it
<jo0nas> ah - silly me, I forgot "=y"
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<jo0nas> anarsoul: that looks like progress - still black screen but seems it detected the screen now - "just" need backlight neabled?
<jo0nas> enabled*
<jo0nas> your current patch has in dtsi "pwms = <&pwm 0 50000 0>;" whereas some older patches has "pwms = <&pwm 0 50000 0 PWM_POLARITY_INVERTED>;" - is that a clue?
* jo0nas tried adding PWM_POLARITY_INVERTED but no noticable change
* jo0nas tries remove DM_REGULATOR_FIXED and CONFIG_I2C0_ENABLE
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<jo0nas> continues to detect panel (and still black screen as expected)
* jo0nas tries remove dc1sw stuff in dtsi file...
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<anarsoul> jo0nas: show dm tree
<jo0nas> earlier patches has in dts(i) this at anx6345: dvdd25-supply = <&reg_dldo2>; dvdd12-supply = <&reg_dldo3>;
<jo0nas> I tried adding those now with no noticable change - but perhaps they are needed but changed name with mainline u-boot?
<anarsoul> backlight is still not probed
<anarsoul> also you don't have a pwm
<jo0nas> ok
<anarsoul> add it to dtsi
<anarsoul> (refer to pinebook dts)
<jo0nas> ok
<anarsoul> I remember that on teres backlight might be on r_pwm
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<anarsoul> so if pwm doesn't work, change it to r_pwm
<anarsoul> refer to schematics.
<anarsoul> I'm off to bed :)
<jo0nas> alright - thanks a lot!
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<jo0nas> anarsoul: Success!!
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<libv> hah, tllim is worried about stealing from banana pi
<libv> the last people to complain are the banana pi folks
<libv> as they would be nowhere without cubietruck or the sunxi community, or the rpi
<libv> so imho bpi is fair game
<MoeIcenowy> libv: he said the wrong community
<MoeIcenowy> he means opi
<MoeIcenowy> not bpi
<libv> opi only barely ranks higher in my world ;)
<libv> so no worries there either :)
<libv> after the gpl violations storm, i should've moved in on $shitpi, and made it a thing: cheap chinese boards with fake support and a ethereal community
<libv> $hitpi even
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* MoeIcenowy suddenly remembered OPi's "OpenWRT" with 3.4 kernel migrated in
<libv> i remember tsvetan having loads of difficulty in getting a chip stable due to overheating... a64?
<KotCzarny> but at least hw price isnt bubbled as shithole
<libv> and that the orange pi was shipped in high numbers but was hopelessly unstable
<libv> KotCzarny: well, we have to thank the raspberry pi for something
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<libv> not for openness, but for driving the price of arm sbcs to where it should be
<MoeIcenowy> should be H3
<MoeIcenowy> originally OPi drived their H3 boards to crazily 1.6GHz
<MoeIcenowy> *facepalm*
<KotCzarny> isnt rpi hopelessly overpriced?
<libv> KotCzarny: not compared to what happened before
<KotCzarny> true
<KotCzarny> but moght be socs were much better?
<KotCzarny> *might
<libv> KotCzarny: err, only slightly
<libv> imx6 is not a good soc
<libv> and freescale saw that it was just not competitive
<libv> and they slapped like 20y support on it, and then it sold to automotive and other people who find that thing important
<libv> and then in 2015, they finally admitted that they had an issue, and they shipped a + version of it with fixed bus bandwidth
<libv> the thing was totally crippled before
<KotCzarny> ship crippled, once it gets old, fix the cripple, sell again
<KotCzarny> ;)
<libv> so even renowned companies, that are not cheap copy paste, mess up bad
<libv> but if it was not for the rpi, the imx6 boards would also be 200usd for a limited amount of features
<libv> i am not entirely sure what the beaglebone used to cost
<libv> but it was significantly more than what we are used to today
<libv> and that came with a powervr sgx
<libv> but tbh, the powervr was pretty much the monopolist gpu at the time
<libv> tom cubie pioneered allwinner developer boards for a useful price
<libv> shortly after the rpi
<buZz> i miss the OMAPs
<libv> and in conjunction with linux-sunxi
<libv> in fact, tom cubie selling the mele a1000 is one of the big seeds for this community
<libv> banana pi was not that much cheaper, and it was just there to "cash" in, in as far as one can cash in in such a race to the bottom
<KotCzarny> a20 boards are still helluva overpriced compared to h3
<libv> it seems pretty difficult to still find the original orange pi with an a20
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<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: can 8723bs/cs BT be dealt with the same source code by uploading different firmware?
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<libv> NiteHawk: do you want access to -boards and -tools?
<libv> where is clement
<libv> i want my cookie.
<libv> cookie!
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<MoeIcenowy> re-trying to build Android w/ Lima
<MoeIcenowy> wonder whether it will work or not
<MoeIcenowy> this time the targeted device is PineTab
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<JohnDoe_71Rus> libv: i have not orange, but cubie a20
<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: is it really needed to add postfix for RTL8723BS/CS?
<MoeIcenowy> (I think it's at least not needed for BS, as BS usually come as modules)
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<MoeIcenowy> (btw why do you use the word "postfix", not "suffix"?
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<clementp> MoeIcenowy: OK as suposed market says "Hey it's DDR4" but in reality it's SoC that supported it but the real memory is LPDDR3 :
<MoeIcenowy> in fact I think you can judge the RAM chip's type by its number and w:h ratio
<MoeIcenowy> LPDDR3 chip has nearly 1:1 w:h
<clementp> yes it's a 1:1
<MoeIcenowy> and as it's 32-bit (and one package contains two CS pins), H6 can only attach 1 LPDDR3
<MoeIcenowy> so it should be LPDDR3
<MoeIcenowy> to be honest, a good news to get open source support for it -- the open source DRAM driver done by me supports ONLY LPDDR3
<clementp> libv: I rely on Matrix IRC gateway/bouncer which is down right now :'(
<MoeIcenowy> I used to use matrix, but now I switched back to ZNC running on my own VPS
<clementp> *cookie*
<MoeIcenowy> (a VPS is a must for me, because as a Chinese I need it to bypass something that every Internet user knows ;-)
<megi> VPS is useful for many things
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<clementp> I have a dedicated server (Kimsufi) which runs many things but still not time to bring up an IRC bouncer
<clementp> I don't use IRC a lot
<clementp> tllim: martinayotte: MoeIcenowy: for the wdog even if it's not hardware rev. related the result is here, reset doesn't work on 50% of the boards we should change to the r_wdog. But I'm also curious to get the final words on this issue.
<MoeIcenowy> oh I should do a test image that just says something and triggers wdog
<MoeIcenowy> Steven now seems to be not caring about this issue
<clementp> I actually try to devmem directly the wdog on my board
<clementp> make the board stuck and doens't reboot
<clementp> complete test I done on my beelink GS1:
<MoeIcenowy> a test image can keep out as much difference as possible
<clementp> Yes I agree but wdog should work in any circumstances
<MoeIcenowy> yes
<MoeIcenowy> otherwise this dog is not loyal and cannot be a watchdog ;-)
<clementp> So even if we found that the wdog is broken due to some regulators or some specific HW configurations we should change to the r_wdog
<clementp> Which is working on all the board with different configuration
<clementp> and btw big congrats to jernej: for the Allwinner support on
<MoeIcenowy> finished a test image
<jo0nas> anarsoul or others: I can now succesfully boot Olimex Teres-I laptop with screen getting turned on - using this patch against mainline u-boot 2019.04: - what is the procedure to push it to mainline?
<jo0nas> thanks
<clementp> I recommend you to use "git send-email" but I'm still a newbie on patch submission
<MoeIcenowy> could you test this image on OPi3?
<MoeIcenowy> the expected behavior when WDOG is okay is repeatedly print w/ 1s interval
<MoeIcenowy> but I think on OPi it may only print once
<clementp> I have only a Beelink GS1
<clementp> but i will test
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<jo0nas> since anarsoul holds copyright for the patch (I only tested it) seems it makes better sense that anarsoul submits it
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<clementp> MoeIcenowy: Hello from Allwinner H6! Testing H6 watchdog. Board should reset in 1s.
<MoeIcenowy> does it reset in 1s?
<clementp> Nope
<clementp> print on time the message and then stucl
<MoeIcenowy> as expected
<clementp> jo0nas: You can post the patch yourself and leave him as the author of the commit, just add your signed-off
<jo0nas> ok
<libv> clementp: cookie!
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<clementp> libv: instructions unclear, IRC noob here how to give a cookie
<clementp> \action
<clementp> \/cookie ?
<jo0nas> libv: hmm - is it me who's supposed to hand out cookies?
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* clementp give libv a cookie.
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<libv> :)))
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<clementp> Yes nice job
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<tllim> @libv, regarding GPL compliance, I have already meet up with Allwinner forks in their HQ two weeks ago and mentioned to them now is good time to clear it on H6 page that you created. However, if there is no action, then they are guilty as charge and I no longer defense them. Please allow few weeks to check out whether they response on your wiki H6 GPL compliance remark.
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<libv> tllim: it will be cleared when the issues are cleared.
<libv> tllim: as i have stated several times before, we have been here several times before
<libv> the wiki is a source of information, when the information becomes invalid, then it can be removed
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<tllim> ^^^ noted, wink from Allwinner mentioned that he has responded back in your wiki remarks.
<tllim> he just responded back to me and icenowy from wechat IRC.
<tllim> @libv, please check and if there is further GPL violation, then I will keep pushing.
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<MoeIcenowy> I think libdram needs to be investigated
<KotCzarny> is there ANY arm vendor with open dram init code?
<tllim> @icenowy, you poke into this tricky one :-)
<BroderTuck> tllim: Do you think you can get them to release the source for libnand-sun8iw7 (as in H3)? for e.g. and other ott boxes
<MoeIcenowy> BroderTuck: they cannot
<MoeIcenowy> because for newer NAND chips
<MoeIcenowy> the vendor tend to hide the details
<MoeIcenowy> but Allwinner signed NDA with them to write a FTL for them
<MoeIcenowy> even if they release a version of the source code, it will only have support for old NANDs
<MoeIcenowy> and sunxi NAND driver is not mainlinable
<MoeIcenowy> our mainline solution is totally not compatible with BSP NAND, and the NAND needs to be totally wiped to work on mainline
<MoeIcenowy> and then formatted with UBIFS
<MoeIcenowy> by the way modern MLC+ NANDs are just cursed
<MoeIcenowy> SLC ones are acceptable
<MoeIcenowy> but I don't think you will see high-capacity SLC to come with consumer-level Allwinner devices ;-)
<BroderTuck> MoeIcenowy: Inded this box comes with an 8GB MLC nand, and as you say, mainline support is intentionally incompatible with the allwinner solution so it's impossible to use it to get at the fex.
<BroderTuck> I don't know what vonfritz did to get the fex he links to on that wiki page. My box comes with a camera module that his didn't have, so I've been trying (and failing) to see what's different between our boxes
<clementp> BroderTuck: what's your board ?
<BroderTuck> clementp: Check the link to the wiki i posted
<willmore> libv, 'billy' is a unit of measurement, now, huh? ;)
<clementp> You can build a linux + an out of three module for the NAND
<clementp> or find an update of this board and extract the fex
<clementp> find an update is the easier, else you should need the UART and check if the boot order is first on the TF-Flash
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<jo0nas> whohoo - I just sent my first ever patch to u-boot - cookies for everyone!
<clementp> be prepare to be slapped and rolled into the mud :P
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<jo0nas> :-)
<clementp> You sent it to ? Because nothings received on my side nor patchworks :
<jo0nas> apparently first challenge is to get my post accepted to the mailinglist at all - apparently it is not enough to subscribe there :-/
<jo0nas> it was held back
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<jo0nas> yes I sent it to
<jo0nas> "The reason it is being held: Post to moderated list" - even though I had subscribed roughly an hour prior to posting
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<smaeul> and you sent with the same email you used to subscribe?
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<jo0nas> yes
<jo0nas> ...or at least it looks that way, as far as I understand the tools
<jo0nas> I mean, I do indeed have several email addresses, but the listmaster notice about mail being held was sent to same email address as the notice an hour earlier that my subscription was succesful
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<jo0nas> (and they were _targeted_ same address, examining email headers, not only ending in same inbox)
<libv> willmore: ikea rules us all, sadly
<libv> tllim: i will not actively go and check _all_ tarballs out there
<libv> because all will tell the exact same story
<libv> and nothing has changed
<libv> nor will it
<libv> i will just keep pushing that big rock up the same hill, over and over again
<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: yes, you either need postfixes or you need to add parameters (like baud rate) to dt and generate config blob on the fly
<anarsoul> jo0nas: just add your copyright and submit it. I preserved mine since I copied pinebook's u-boot.dtsi
<tllim> @libv, noted. As you have mentioned, "the wiki is a source of information, when the information becomes invalid, then it can be removed"
<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: isn't config blob model specific?
<MoeIcenowy> at least configuration specific
<jo0nas> anarsoul: I chose to leave you as sole copyright holder, since I didn't really contribute _creative_ changes to the resulting code - my contribution was testing which of your suggestions worked
<MoeIcenowy> check the android/hardware/realtek/bluetooth/firmware/ directory of Android BSP of Allwinner
<MoeIcenowy> this should be provided by Realtek
<MoeIcenowy> for 8723BS there's two variant: normal (as SoM) and VQ0 (CoB, 8703AS)
<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: it's configuration specific
<MoeIcenowy> for 8723CS the chip number variant already covered it
<anarsoul> I saw two different configs for 8723bs
<MoeIcenowy> so I think a postfix seems a bit overkill
<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: what devices are they for?
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<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: I don't remember. I found firmware somewhere on github and it didn't work for me. Changed config - and it's working.
<MoeIcenowy> it could be VQ0 one
<MoeIcenowy> VQ0 one is for CoB 8703AS
<anarsoul> jo0nas: I didn't contribute any creative changes either
<MoeIcenowy> 8703AS come as QFN chip, not as SoM with BGA chip on it
<MoeIcenowy> a difference on WLAN part is that 8703AS comes with no MAC address
<MoeIcenowy> but 8723BS comes with MAC
<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: see rtl8723bs_config-OBDA8723.bin in /lib/firmware/rtl_bt
<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: is this one not working on Pine64?
<anarsoul> *at least* this one
<MoeIcenowy> thus OBDA8723 could be a bad postfix ;-)
<MoeIcenowy> it's just the ACPI ID of the 8723bs bt
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<anarsoul> yes
<MoeIcenowy> anarsoul: should we use the same postfix between Pinebook and Pinetab?
<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: anyway, right way would be to take link params from DT
<anarsoul> and generate a blob that doesn't have link params
<MoeIcenowy> do you know the format of the config blob?
<anarsoul> MoeIcenowy: see the code
<anarsoul> it parses it to get link parameters
<anarsoul> and according to realtek rest is chip-specific fuses
<anarsoul> see thread with my last attempt to upstream it
<MoeIcenowy> could we omit the config blob if we take link params from DT?
<anarsoul> we can't, it has some fuse settings beside link params
<anarsoul> see mail thread, someone from realtek briefly shed some light on config contents
<anarsoul> [PATCH 3/8] dt-bindings: net: bluetooth: Add rtl8723bs-bluetooth
<jo0nas> I proposed a patch to mainline u-boot to support Olimex Teres-I and is asked about Maintainer line - Should add myself as I have the hardware and can test, or should it rather be anarsoul or someone else with deeper skills?
<MoeIcenowy> jo0nas: if you want, you can give me the maintainership ;-)
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<jo0nas> MoeIcenowy: I'd be more than happy to do that!
<jo0nas> thanks!
<jo0nas> is it more sensible that I wait for some hours/days/weeks for additional feedback, or more sensible to issue a v2 of a patch now that I got some feedback?
<jo0nas> ...or would you want to take over pushing it to mainline too, MoeIcenowy?
<anarsoul> wait for at least few days
<jo0nas> as I also mentioned yesterday, I am in deep here - my skills are 20 years of patching and compiling a wide variety of packages in Debian - I don't write C code so am really fumbling here
<jo0nas> ok
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<MoeIcenowy> jo0nas: ah I also started from patching packages ;-)
<MoeIcenowy> instead I'm a maintainer of a quite small distro
<jo0nas> interesting. URL?
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<anarsoul> jo0nas:
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* jo0nas maintains a few Debian-internal distros (so-called "Debian Pure Blends") - mot notably
* vagrantc waves
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* jo0nas waves back
<jo0nas> anarsoul: wauw - that looks *big*
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<anarsoul> jo0nas: I'm not affiliated with aosc :)
<jo0nas> ah :-)
<jo0nas> MoeIcenowy: wauw, that looks *big*
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<vagrantc> jo0nas: have you tried the latest teres-i patches on 2019.01 ? seems plausible they would work...
<jo0nas> you mean backporting from 2019.04 to 2019.01? No, haven't tried that - would it help upstreaming process and/or inclusion in Debian Buster, or why do you ask?
<jo0nas> MoeIcenowy: for adding you as maintainer I need your email address - I seem to recall that you updated it recently somewhere, is your new domain or is it another one?
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<vagrantc> jo0nas: it might still be possible to include in Debian Buster if backported to 2019.01, yes.
<jo0nas> cool! Looking into that right now!
<vagrantc> jo0nas: no promises, though ... but i've gotten support for a few boards through this late in the freeze recently
<vagrantc> jo0nas: i didn't suggest 2019.01 earlier because the patch was more invasive, but this looks safe enough to suggest
<vagrantc> jo0nas: sorry if it seems like i'm going back and forth on it :)
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<jo0nas> vagrantc: I appreciate your being cautious - and also that you are open about even vague options, rather than only sharing (fewer!) solid options
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<MoeIcenowy> jo0nas: my new mail address is one
<MoeIcenowy> old is
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<imcsk8> hello, i'm getting this error while booting with root=/dev/sda2 on a cubietruck plus: [ 230.912224] localhost dracut-initqueue[667]: Warning: /dev/sda2 does not exist can somebody give me a hand?
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<libv> imcsk8: look through the log
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<imcsk8> libv: it's odd when i boot using root=/dev/mmcblk0p4 i can see the /dev/sda device but when i try booting with root=/dev/sda i can't see it. i'm not sure if it's a timing problem or a driver not being added to initramfs
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<jo0nas> diff is slightly larger - required one patch introduced after 2019.01 to initialize i2c
<jo0nas> MoeIcenowy: good - then I remembered right :-)
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<martinayotte> MoeIcenowy: clementp: I've tried the h6-wdog-test.img, as expected : all my OPis failed and the PineH64 succeeded ...
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<clementp_> Thanks martinayotte I will add details about your tests in my patchsets
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<martinayotte> clementp: do you mean the serialno that I provided yesterday ?
<clementp> yes
<martinayotte> :-)
<vagrantc> jo0nas: looks promising ... i'll do a build and check if it doesn't break pine64+ or pinebook
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<jo0nas> thanks
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<vagrantc> jo0nas: pinebook seems to test ok, on to test pine64+
<vagrantc> jo0nas: any chance you could come up with a more meaningful Origin: in the patch?
<vagrantc> jo0nas: the link to the irc log is not exactly obviously how the patch came into fruition
<jo0nas> not sure what could be more accurate - you prefer the pastebin URL?
<jo0nas> the patch evolved over an irc correspondence
<vagrantc> the github jist link actually looks more like the patch ... but ok
<jo0nas> exchanged as a series of pastebin posts
<jo0nas> ...and remarks hinting about how those pastebin dumps needed to be massaged
<vagrantc> which someday, all you'll have is the irc conversation to a bunch of dead pastebin links :/
<jo0nas> there really is no better "Origin" than that
<vagrantc> fair enough
<jo0nas> no, we have Salsa :-)
<jo0nas> don't talk about a day when Debian is obsolete - that makes me sad
<kilobyte> as permanent as Alioth?
<jo0nas> urgh
<jo0nas> nah, we do a dance - shuffle our data from one system to another, and then to another...
<kilobyte> BTS links are extremely stable, though
<jo0nas> permanence is Debian, not the various frontends we have
<kilobyte> but that's obsolete email, not some fancy node.js stuff with a maintained lifetime of 3 months
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