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<Drup>
probably not :p
<BAMbanda>
Drup, life! Do you think its practical to learn multiple functional languages at once?
<BAMbanda>
such as haskell and lisp, even javascript?
<BAMbanda>
to get an overall feel for the paradigm as well as to be flexible?
<Drup>
why do you want to do them all at once ?
<Drup>
are you in a hurry or something ?
<BAMbanda>
Drup, i like programming a lot.
<Drup>
just pick an order
<BAMbanda>
no, but I kinda want to find my niche. I use js for work
<BAMbanda>
lisp to feel hackerish, and haskell for sort of the same
<Drup>
less confusion, more deep insight
<BAMbanda>
hmm alright, I must make a difficult deision
<BAMbanda>
may I ask you what you like about ocaml, as opposed to the other options
<Drup>
just pick an order, it's not going to look you in anything anyway :)
<ollehar>
(I'm alive, too!)
<Drup>
lock*
<ollehar>
(Could recommend SICP)
<BAMbanda>
ah ok. that's nice
<Drup>
also, to be honest, javascript is barely functionnal ;)
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<BAMbanda>
haha ok then. I'll play around and see what feels right
<ollehar>
(SICP teaches Scheme. I went to OCaml from there.)
<BAMbanda>
SICP,
<BAMbanda>
added to my list of eventual endeavors
<BAMbanda>
polyglot
<ollehar>
SICP = Structures and interpretations of computer programs
<ollehar>
available online for free
<Drup>
about ocaml compare to the other ... I will only talk about haskell, because that's the only one which make sense to compare too
<BAMbanda>
coool,
<BAMbanda>
and I'm listening Drup, actually I gotta go, but I look forward to hearing if I catch you in here when im back
<Drup>
haskell get you deeper in the whole purity and functionnal aspect of things
<Drup>
ocaml is far more practical
<BAMbanda>
short and brief, good stuff
<Drup>
which one is the best is up to each one, I prefer ocaml for actually doing stuff
<BAMbanda>
I wonder why haskell's irc room is so filled
<BAMbanda>
1200
<BAMbanda>
Drup, yeah preference it all comes down to
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<mildfate>
Hey guys, I'm trying to install OCaml on a shared server. I've set the prefix variable to my local directory (/home/me/local) and TMPDIR to /home/me/tmp but I still get permissions error, namely when it tries to compile the test program. Is there a way to install ocaml without root and locally?
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<Drup>
mildfate: I don't really have a direct answer, but if you can install opam ,it will handle all this stuff for you
<Drup>
this a bit recursive, though.
<mildfate>
Drup: I've found that it's because I don't have permissions for "as"
<mildfate>
But in the ocaml installation, I can give "as" options, is there an option to select a different assembler
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<Drup>
wow, you can't use as ? huh, I don't really now, sorry :x
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<maurer>
So, I'm getting a stack overflow, but if I try to run it under ocamldebug to get a trace, it times out and disconnects from the process
<maurer>
Is there any way to make ocamldebug stay more connected or get at least a backtrace?
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<adrien>
you're getting a Stack Overflow exception?
<adrien>
to get the OCAMLRUNPARAM environment variable set to "b" in your program
<maurer>
The OK, re-running
<adrien>
it enables printing backtraces on uncaught exceptions; you can have a look at the Printexc module too which will let you enable/disable that too
<maurer>
I seem to recall the last time this happened needing to use the debugger though because the backtrace just printed a hundred lines of map
<adrien>
for stack overflows, maybe
<adrien>
but stack overflows usually indicate that you have unbound recursion
<adrien>
or too deep
* adrien
has to leave soon
<maurer>
So, the last time this happened I had just mapped a moderate sized list
<maurer>
I'm still waiting for it to finish, turns out a program that errors a minute thirty into native takes a long time to error under dbg
<maurer>
OK, got backtrace, time to see if it's any use
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<Kakadu>
I have wrote library with .plpack file. There is an issue: when I build it 1st time --- it builds OK, but when I build it 2nd time it rebuilds everyting -- it doesn't remember last successful build
<gasche>
I'm thinking of setting up a very informal "sprint" in December around the idea of writing small libraries, or packaging existing but hidden ones
<gasche>
I'll ask Roberto if we could have some physical space at IRILL
<gasche>
(over the week-end)
<gasche>
I was thinking you cambridge people may be interested in doing so as well
<gasche>
right now I'm collecting ideas of useful targets on this webpage, so this alone could be helpful
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<mfp>
gasche: well, atm. I'd like to have a process pool (with early fork()ing so as to avoid pbs with resources) to run async background tasks in the Lwt monad (last time I looked, none of the existing libs did exactly what I wanted). Would that count?
<Kakadu>
[13:56:45] <gasche>Kakadu: pull request sent
<gasche>
mfp: can you build a first usable version of that over a week-end?
<companion_cube>
mfp: maybe ocamlnetmulticore? something like this?
<mfp>
oh and I have a a GZip_stream_lwt with things like uncompress : Lwt_io.input_channel -> Lwt_io.input_channel Lwt.t
<Kakadu>
ah, I got it
<mfp>
gasche: I think so; in fact, I'm probably doing it soon :P
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<mfp>
companion_cube: I didn't really care about its communication via shared mem for efficiency reasons (IIRC). https://github.com/MyLifeLabs/nproc was very close to what I wanted, but there was some issue (IIRC reentrancy, not sure).
<companion_cube>
maybe you could patch it then? :)
<mfp>
ah yes that must be it: val submit : t -> f: ('a -> 'b) -> 'a -> 'b option Lwt.t
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<mfp>
this means you only "detach" once and cannot do it recursively unless you create another pool for each worker
<mfp>
it'd be better to be able to perform [submit f x] in the worker (implicit pool inherited from parent) recursively, which might send the task to any other worker (or itself)
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<gasche>
Romain Bardou presented a version of what you describe for distributed computing
<mfp>
another mildly interesting extension (which I don't really need) would be to measure the actual computation/communication cost ratio, so as to decide when to run locally in recursive algos
<gasche>
(I mean socket communication)
<mfp>
was it pro-something?
<mfp>
procord
<Kakadu>
gasche: Thanks for your pull request. You rock!
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<mfp>
procord -> I only remember that it didn't scratch my itch either :P My issues with procord (quick glance at the code) probably included: blocking interface (I prefer having it in the lwt monad), no early forking + pool, no access to pool in workers(?)
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<siaW>
how do i get my ocaIDE working in eclipse
<siaW>
i think i installed it but i can't get my codes to compilie :(
<whitequark>
perhaps I should port merlin to sublimetext as well
<whitequark>
my ocp-index plugin is too slow
<Kakadu>
siaW: AFAIK emacs is installable via brew, but I'm not mac user
<siaW>
i don't want to work in the terminal
<siaW>
i want and IDE, something like eclipse to use
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* Kakadu
shouts: Mac users, come here!
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<AltGr>
whitequark, what libs are you using ?
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<AltGr>
ocp-index should be quite fast as long as it doesn't need to load huge interfaces (eg 'open Core.Std' is slow atm)
<whitequark>
AltGr: it's because it's reran at every keypress or so
<AltGr>
I see. Re-running only on dots should be enough, but I think the issue is the same with emacs auto-complete
<whitequark>
AltGr: sublime's interface is not exactly easy to use
<whitequark>
the delays aren't huge, less than 100ms, but it's incredibly annoying so I stopped using it myself
<AltGr>
It can get annoying quickly yes. That's the price we pay for the as-simple-as-possible interface
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<AltGr>
running as daemon + querying the daemon should be easy enough though, just need to find the time to write it
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<rks`>
whitequark: if you plan to bind merlin at some point, open an issue on the tracker / a pull request : we'd be interested in how it goes, and we could answer your questions if you have some
<whitequark>
rks`: sure. I've a quick question: do I understand it correctly that merlin runs as a daemon and I issue requests to it?
<whitequark>
AltGr: btw, one very annoying thing is the auto-wrapping of text
<whitequark>
I have to unwrap it manually and it often fails
<rks`>
whitequark: yes, that's it :)
<AltGr>
whitequark, there is a --sexp option that makes parsing easier (from emacs at least :P); other outputs would be straight-forward to implement
<whitequark>
AltGr: not for sublime (python)
<whitequark>
I've considered it but that was too much work
<AltGr>
Adding JSON should be a matter of minutes if that solves the pb :)
<whitequark>
unfortunately it'll still be too slow
<whitequark>
I'll think about it
<AltGr>
sure, that's another issue
<AltGr>
but if it can help for binding in different contexts too
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<gasche>
I don't think it makes sense to try to support autocompletion through ocp-index, from a design point of view
<gasche>
by design, the tool is suitable for analysis of (possibly partially) compiled sources
<gasche>
it should work well for exploring, from your editor, an existing project that you've just compiled (with -bin-annot)
<gasche>
jump-to-definition, possibly list-of-use-sites, type feedback, etc.
<gasche>
none of these require ocp-index's logic to run on every keystroke, just specific commands
<AltGr>
gasche, exactly ; that's actually how I use autocompletion (only on-demand, as a means to access a chunk of API/doc)
<gasche>
osa1: the "specification" of OCaml is the OCaml Reference Manual, minus the extension parts
<gasche>
(but in practice people consider the extensions to be part of the language)
<johnelse>
apple seem to have wrapped quiet a few CLI apps with creepy license-requiring ones :(
<osa1>
adrien_oww: JVM. this is basically a learning exercise. I choose Caml Light because I want to move to OCaml if I can manage to finish it and it should give me a good start(ie. I won't restart from scratch)
<gasche>
what are you planning to do, osa1?
<gasche>
implement a subset of Caml?
<gasche>
adrien_oww: there was a revival of a fork of caml-light a couple of years ago, by someone that found it easier to hack on than OCaml (at the type-checker level)
<siaW>
thanks @johnelse
<siaW>
now i get this
<siaW>
make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
<siaW>
[Finished in 0.7s with exit code 2]
<gasche>
"llama light", appears to be dead now
<siaW>
in sublime text
<siaW>
i have this list program
<siaW>
let add x y = x + y;;
<siaW>
add 4 5;;
<gasche>
siaW: do you have some experience with using a compiler (of any language) from the command-line or a Makefile before?
<siaW>
how do i get sublmiste text to show me the result?
<osa1>
gasche: I'm planning to compile smallest useful subset of OCaml to JVM.
<gasche>
do you know a programming language already?
<siaW>
gasche: i'm a complete noob!
<siaW>
i know java
<gasche>
ok
<gasche>
are you comfortable with a terminal?
<siaW>
yes
<gasche>
then
<adrien_oww>
osa1: sounds like a fairly big project; are you aware of ocamljava?
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<osa1>
adrien_oww: I said "smallest useful subset" which means something like Caml Light, do you think this is also fairly big?
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<j0sh>
is it possible to have literals as part of the type definition?
<j0sh>
eg, to constrain the values that the type can take, eg type t = "a" | "b"
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<Drup>
j0sh: no
<wmeyer>
yo
<wmeyer>
j0sh: you can have polymorphic variants though
<wmeyer>
let's say: type t = [`Trousers | `Jacket | `Shoes]
<wmeyer>
which actually is similar to what you want
<wmeyer>
or you can do GADT types: type a;; type b;; type 'a t = A : a t | B : b t;; then you also can disambiguite between these two cases on a type level
<wmeyer>
(GADTS are cool new addition, and I would suggest being a little bit more patient and get them to know)
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<wmeyer>
I have to say, I also look forward the GADTS to become an integral part of every more advanced project
<j0sh>
wmeyer: yeah, GADTs are a bit over my head at the moment
<j0sh>
was just hoping that the compiler could eliminate some of the boilerplate when pattern-matching literals corresponding to a type, oh well
<wmeyer>
have a rest, on another call I will definitely answer your question :) (however I am far from fluent with GADTs)
<wmeyer>
they are complex in the begining. At the same time they are much simplier than other parts of the type system.
<def-lkb>
Or just define type t = A | B val to_string : t -> string val of_string : string -> t option :)
<wmeyer>
def-lkb: yeah.
<wmeyer>
:)
<def-lkb>
Much less involved type-system wise, but that should do the job
<wmeyer>
makes sense, if you don't plan to extend it
<wmeyer>
and I'd indeed prefer def-lkb solution
<wmeyer>
because there are not many operatoins that can be done on a type level in OCaml
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<j0sh>
yeah, would be nice to use the type system to constrain more of the program
<j0sh>
and maybe automate some other things like de/serialization (i've been looking at adt/adtgen for this)
<wmeyer>
yes, maybe you can look at deriving-ocsigen library, and sexplib?
<j0sh>
deriving-ocsigen has been on my list of things to check out, yes
<wmeyer>
these ones use meta programming to get your seralisation code :-)
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<wmeyer>
in manys it works, but the parametric types are problematic
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<pippijn>
j0sh: atdgen*
<pippijn>
I use all of those things :)
<pippijn>
atdgen, deriving-ocsigen, and sexplib
<pippijn>
though atdgen has limited use for me, sadly
<pippijn>
because I don't define the protocol
<j0sh>
yeah, i have to play around with them some more... not sure what the tradeoffs yet or what would be more appropriate for my use-case
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<j0sh>
trying to build a system that acts as an erlang node, so it needs to speak the erlang eterm format and so forth
<pippijn>
nice
<j0sh>
wrote all the handshake code manually, it works well enough but feels error-prone, would be nice to generate that from the type definitions
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<pippijn>
yes
<pippijn>
if all else fails, make your own generator
<pippijn>
I made a spring lobby client library in ocaml
<j0sh>
ah i see, spring is an opensource RTS, nice
<def-lkb>
nice to know pippijn, though I never managed to have a fully working spring setup
<pippijn>
rts engine
<pippijn>
zero-k is a game
<pippijn>
def-lkb: spring rts?
<def-lkb>
pippijn: yes
<pippijn>
hmm
<def-lkb>
when I checked, most games came with a lot a different version, disparate media… most combinations I tried failed, except one which was quite limited
<pippijn>
hm
<pippijn>
try zero-k
<def-lkb>
(2 years ago if I recall)
<pippijn>
ok, it may be better
<def-lkb>
ok i will give it a look, thanks! :)
<pippijn>
try weblobby (with firefox, if you have a java plugin)
<pippijn>
def-lkb: if you get it to work and want to play, I'd gladly join :)
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<adrien>
gasche: hey, can you remove "0002-build-always-build-lex-and-tools-with-the-compiler-f.patch" and " 0001-build-always-build-lex-tools-and-ocamlc-with-the-com-fixed.patch" from bug 5737? (some people want a latency of 16ms; I have a latency which is close to 16 days at times =/ )
<whitequark>
I don't think humans can actually reply to issues within 16ms
<adrien>
that's 60fps; what I've been trying to get at work
<adrien>
but the standard deviation between frames on the machine I'm using is close to 20ms
<adrien>
so it feels bad
<whitequark>
wow. what do you need that for?
<adrien>
smoothness
<whitequark>
well, sure, I mean smoothness of what? :)
<adrien>
GUIs :P
<whitequark>
that... sounds like a huge overkill
<adrien>
but it's quite awful because profilers will help you with throughput
<adrien>
over the whole life of your proces
<adrien>
s
<whitequark>
I honestly can't notice anything under 50ms
<adrien>
16ms or 50ms is the same issue
<adrien>
if you have a disk access between two frames, you'll start having issues
<whitequark>
though on touch 16ms may be an issue
<adrien>
yeah, touch
<adrien>
but 30fps will still feel smooth
<adrien>
if ther are no hiccups
<whitequark>
yeah, android had quite a job to fix that
<adrien>
you don't care much if it's 50ms or 15ms
<whitequark>
"project butter"
<adrien>
as long as it's not 5ms then 40ms then 12ms then 42ms then 1ms then ...
<adrien>
and tools are inapproriate for that
<adrien>
but if I could get that FRP stuff better on track...
<def-lkb>
pippijn: cool, later this week probably :)
<pippijn>
:)
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