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<whitequark>
fucking OASIS, what is the point of ocamlfind integration if you can't properly extract ocamlc path from ocamlfind configuration?
<whitequark>
I'm now entirely convinced that the sole purpose of existence of OASIS is to make my life miserable
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<whitequark>
you couldn't possibly make a worse designed system with an express \intent
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<whitequark>
why does it try to detect ocamlfind or bytecc on its own *at all*?!
<whitequark>
also, why the fuck does it not accept --prefix= and at the SAME TIME break the non-spaced argument *somehow* when invoked via ./configure?
<whitequark>
why does it attempt to invoke configure via a single make target rather than just doing make setup.exe and then passing the arguments to setup.exe directly? would that, you know, *work*, and thus violate some unwritten rule of OASIS development?
<whitequark>
I'm going to claim from now on that packages compile *despite* the existence of OASIS, rather than owing to it
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<whitequark>
I mean it seriously, every single thing that ./configure detected is plain wrong, and yet ocaml-re (on which I do my testing) cross-compiles to Android just fine
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<def`>
whitequark: nice :-)
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<adrien>
whitequark: oasis has never been an issue for me for cross-compilation
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<adrien>
whitequark: it does try to detect the compiler but it doesn't use it
<adrien>
I provide an ocamlfind.conf file and everything's good
<whitequark>
adrien: well, yes, I figured that as well
<whitequark>
but why does it even try to?
<adrien>
get a time machine, head back to 2010 and you'll probably find the answer obvious
<adrien>
maybe for deps without ocamlfind support
<adrien>
could be anything
<adrien>
also, the patch I have been applying on top of the header-name-clash patches:
<adrien>
sed -i 's;\\\.\\\.\\/;\0\0;g' tools/cleanup-header
<adrien>
iirc it's needed for building C stubs
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<whitequark>
-_-'
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<gasche>
< whitequark> you couldn't possibly make a worse designed system with an express \intent
<gasche>
that's not a very respectful way to talk about a tool that was developped in good faith by a developper with the express intent of helping the community
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<gasche>
Sylvain has been mostly alone working on oasis (with some appreciated help here and there, eg. by jpdeplaix), and I'm sure he would welcome bugreports and contributions to help with your use-case
<gasche>
I understand the personal use of venting (and surely you personally do a lot for the OCaml ecosystem), but I don't think #ocaml is the right place for being unconstructive about other's work; I wouldn't want this place to become a ranting echo chamber (which it sometimes looks like)
<whitequark>
noted
<gasche>
thanks :)
<adrien>
yup, I think the case of the discovery of the compiler that is then unused is a good example of the development of oasis : it's quite young in terms of development mainly because there haven't been that many contributions so things sometimes look as if they were stopped in the middle of the dev
<whitequark>
it is very hard to contribute code to OASIS
<whitequark>
I did try to contribute something useful to it
<whitequark>
there really are pervasive design issues in it which make the code much more complex than it should be
<adrien>
like which one?
<adrien>
(genious question, I'm wondering how much they are caused by original goals)
<whitequark>
everything is very modular
<whitequark>
but 1) when you try to figure out how something works, you have to trace through many, many layers
<whitequark>
which are, of course, undocumented
<adrien>
also, yeah, iirc Sylvain has a child now (been one or two years I think) so time must be scarce
<whitequark>
2) and when you need to get something from another layer, you have to update everything in middle
<adrien>
but it means it needs new people to co-maintain and not a single upstream
<adrien>
I see
<adrien>
so probably cause by the wish to be able to target several build systems
<adrien>
which never really materialized
<adrien>
I think omake was a candidate backend then
<adrien>
well, omake, make, ocamlbuild, and everything else that could ever exist
<whitequark>
I feel like it was in general made too modular
<adrien>
obviously that's a good way to get something complex
<whitequark>
not just build systems, though that's a major factor
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<whitequark>
then, if you need to extend it somehow, you've really bad luck
<whitequark>
for example extending setup.ml to discover something else
<whitequark>
Lwt does this, I would have to spend probably hours digging around and still my solution would be inelegant and probably fail at some point
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<whitequark>
hell, just figuring out how to make some myocamlbuild.ml rules that coexist with OASIS took me a day of work back then
<whitequark>
(granted I did not know much OCaml, but still.)
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<adrien>
I still don't know well how to do ocamlbuild rules and I've had to look around many times :P
<whitequark>
oh, sure, what I mean is that now you *also* have to deal with OASIS
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<adrien>
I understand the concern; I've found it to work well enough in most cases
<whitequark>
or take Lwt, we have two problems with Drup that are purely OASIS-borne. 1) we need to generate documentation for syntax extension *somehow*, but OASIS doesn't want to generate docs from an executable .ml file
<adrien>
especially it's way way way better than what was there before
<whitequark>
2) we need to add a META library without building an empty .cmxa, as that fails on OS X
<whitequark>
and generally, there is no reason to build an empty cma or cmxa, it was there *solely* because of OASIS
<adrien>
you mean, instead of having a cmx/cmo only?
<whitequark>
I don't need anything at all, it's a META library that only contains a ppx field
<adrien>
ah, ok
<adrien>
was dbunzli's example in mind
<whitequark>
but OASIS doesn't allow to add XMETAExtraLines: to executables
<whitequark>
and in fact the hack that Drup made to make it install executables to lib/, I would have never figured it out in my life
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<gasche>
I don't know much about oasis myself, mostly treat it as a black box
<gasche>
(I think trying to get a reasonable understanding of ocamlbuild is enough work for a part-time contributor to the ecosystem :p)
<whitequark>
better keep it at that, really
<adrien>
after having looked inside ocamlbuild, I'm not sure I want to look a lot more at it
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<gasche>
the coding style is peculiar, but I found it workable
<whitequark>
I have relatively few issues wrangling ocamlbuild to do what I want, as well
<whitequark>
gasche: last week I extensively looked at the ocaml buildsystem wrt cross-compilation
<whitequark>
the thing that horrified me most was ocamlmklib
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<gasche>
(I still don't understand why ocamlpro felt the need to silently shun ocamlbuild of their ocaml-win distribution, but well)
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<whitequark>
./configure puts several lines starting with #ml into config/Makefile, and then ocamlmklib buildscript extracts those lines and puts them inside a ocamlmklibconfig.ml (!)
<gasche>
doesn't ocamlbuild do the same? or maybe adrien cleaned that part already
<whitequark>
bonus points, it could in fact do a mere substitution, as the ML parts of those lines are always constant
<whitequark>
I mean, ocamlmklib buildscript does a substitution anyway
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<whitequark>
I think the code was added when ocamlmklib was extracted from ocamlbuild, so probably a remnant from that time
<whitequark>
ocamlbuild doesn't seem to do that anymore
<adrien>
whitequark: no, extracting data from config/Makefile isn't trivial
<adrien>
some annoying corner-cases
<adrien>
and you haven't seen the code before a dozen sed expressions
<whitequark>
adrien: yes, it can be sometimes problematic, but I think this case is just overseen
<adrien>
windows is the reason of some of the complexity here
<adrien>
nah, assemblage isn't released yet so there's plenty of time for the documentation to get out of sync
<companion_cube>
rght
<whitequark>
hah
<companion_cube>
still, it looks less crazy than myocamlbuild.ml
<whitequark>
I eagerly wait for assemblage to start working
<companion_cube>
it looks like it would actually make sense to describe the build in ocaml, honestly
<adrien>
gasche: about splitting ocamlbuild from the compiler, what about not building it along the compiler instead?
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<adrien>
and build it afterwards
<adrien>
afterwards the compile ris installed
<adrien>
compiler is*
<companion_cube>
as afterwards as possible, even
<adrien>
more work, not many more benefits
<adrien>
my concern is that if assemblage is to take over the world soon, it would be a bit stupid to have split ocamlbuild from the compiler, hosted a new project, done work in such and such field needlessly
<companion_cube>
if assemblage is to take over the world, ocamlbuild can rot in its corner of the compiler, sure
<adrien>
I don't know how things will work out but if ocamlbuild were handled like the tool it is instead of being handled like a compiler bit, my issues would vanish
<adrien>
and probably others' too
<whitequark>
I would rather say that ocamlbuild should be split even more eagerly in that case
<whitequark>
like camlp4 was
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<companion_cube>
if assemblage works well, I'm even willing to big farewell to oasis
<adrien>
I'm not sure it's worth it if it can be made to be built later on
<adrien>
anyway, I think I'll start on that road
<adrien>
I don't see a significant drawback (maybe gasche would be able to point one out) and I see nice gains for little work
<adrien>
plus that work would be needed if it ended up being completely split
<whitequark>
imo there needs to be much more pruning of ocamlc.
<adrien>
?
<companion_cube>
prune the bytecode compiler!!
<whitequark>
I mean, the ocaml/ocaml repo
<whitequark>
Alain does really nice work on the front-end and middle-end parts, but the tools are in terrible disarray
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<whitequark>
and the buildsystem ...
<whitequark>
... well
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<adrien>
front-end and middle-end changes are "easy"
<adrien>
tools, you need to handle many OSes and configurations and they require much more testing
* adrien
going to slack a bit and move outside to write his documentation
<gasche>
adrien: I have nothing against your suggestion, but I'm not motivated to implement it -- patches welcome!
<adrien>
ok
<gasche>
I worked on ocamlbuild a bit before the release
<adrien>
and can you think of any possible issue with it?
<gasche>
but these days are past and I need to get back on my thesis
<adrien>
I mean, I can't see a reason not to do it but maybe someone would
<gasche>
on my personal ocamlbuild todo-list, there would be the .install feature that Daniel requested
<adrien>
DESTDIR now works well, right?
<gasche>
and maybe some slightly more exciting things like parallelization improvements
<gasche>
adrien: I implemented DESTDIR but only tested it cursorily, so I don't know about "well"
<gasche>
the issue I can see is the one that separated-camlp4 has: some people using Nix do not want to go write in the official-compiler directory at camlp4 install time
<gasche>
that should not be an issue as long as ocamlbuild remains in the "make install" target, though
<adrien>
hmmm, I se
<gasche>
(and I don't think people rely on ocamlbuild's installation dir as much as they do on camlp4's)
<whitequark>
-use-ocamlfind Use the 'ocamlfind' wrapper instead of using Findlib directly to determine command-line arguments. Use -no-ocamlfind to disable.
<whitequark>
how come ocamlbuild can use Findlib directly?
<adrien>
I was thinking some people would want to build and test ocamlbuild without installing the compiler first and that can be done fairly well with good DESTDIR support
<gasche>
whitequark: iirc. it communicates through the ocamlfind command-line tool
<adrien>
ah, right, something that could be in ocamlfind if its build is separated from the compiler: use findlib's cmxs
<adrien>
well, I'm going to slack and then play a bit on mantis
<whitequark>
I don't think you can use .cmxs like that
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<gasche>
we could consider doing that even if ocamlfind remains distributed with the compiler
<whitequark>
there's no equivalent of dlsym
<gasche>
I think the compiler maintainers would frown at the idea of having some parts of the distribution relying on external tools, but then, they're open to using menhir, and we rely on flexlink on windows anyway
<whitequark>
either findlib or ocamlfind gotta have a hard dependency on the another one
<whitequark>
er, ocamlbuild
<companion_cube>
findlib is more important than ocamlbuild
<companion_cube>
it should be the one shipped with the compiler
<whitequark>
pls no
<gasche>
I think the "issues" with having ocamlbuild inside the distribution are mostly imaginary
<whitequark>
it's problematic enough to get an update into findlib as it is
<gasche>
but then, imaginary issues are real as long as they affect people
<companion_cube>
whitequark: hmmm, right
<companion_cube>
maybe the distribution should only contain ocam{c,opt}
<companion_cube>
+l
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<whitequark>
you need toplevel at least, packages use it for configuring themselves
<companion_cube>
... really?
<whitequark>
... yes? like every OASIS package in opam-repository ever
<whitequark>
and topkg
<companion_cube>
well, ocamlrun, of course
<whitequark>
they use ocaml, not ocamlrun (though you do need ocamlrun obviously)
<whitequark>
(you don't ship bytecode)
<companion_cube>
yes
<companion_cube>
but it's more an interpreter than a toplevel in this case. I see your point
<gasche>
there are mild legal issues related to the fact that OCaml Consortium members really want the permissive license over what's in the distribution
<whitequark>
there isn't terribly more in the distribution than you say. I mean, there's ocamldoc and ocamldebug and ocamlbuild
<gasche>
moving stuff out of the distribution annoys them a bit because they have to separately make sure the legalese works as well
<whitequark>
ocamlmklib and ocamlmktop and profiling wrappers are too insignificant
<gasche>
I think the statu quo (plus or minus ocamlbuild, ocamldebug or what not) are reasonable enough; common sense, a tiny bit of patience, and sending patches solve most issues
<whitequark>
yup
<companion_cube>
whitequark: some libraries could disappear, too, like Str
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<whitequark>
and Num
<gasche>
any minute spent thinking about Str is better spent helping with ocaml-re's documentation
<gasche>
(just write small examples and send pull requests; that worked well enough with Set and Map in the stdlib)
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<gasche>
Num is pure-ocaml, which trumps Zarith in some use-cases (eg. js_of_ocaml); but it certainly could be provided separately
<whitequark>
oh, it is? then it's not as bad
<gasche>
... in fact it isn't, there's some C code in it
<companion_cube>
Num can be useful, but its API is terrible
<companion_cube>
aww.
<companion_cube>
stiller lesser of a depdendency than GMP
<gasche>
it's only in nat.ml
<gasche>
I only ever use Big_int
<whitequark>
oh right, I remember js_of_ocaml breaking because of that
<whitequark>
:D
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<gasche>
it would be amusing to try to re-implement Nat in OCaml, measure the performance difference, and propose this upstream
<gasche>
sometimes I wish for a magic "get a motivated intern" button
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<companion_cube>
rigt, Re lacks documentation
<companion_cube>
gasche: indeed, I never understood the point of the num type, big_int and big_rat are the interesting parts
<gasche>
it's hard to guess in advance what people will care about
<gasche>
same thing for Bigarray multi-dimensional support
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<fdsf>
Can ocp-indent be used with Sublime Text ?
<gasche>
(today I learned "Hindsight is 20/20" exists as a sentence in the Urban Dictionary)
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<adrien>
gasche, whitequark : if there is a timeframe between the build of the compiler and ocamlbuild, libs could be built in between and ocamlbuild could discover additional _optional_ dependencies
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<companion_cube>
whitequark: you're right, parsing IRC logs is trivial
<companion_cube>
I just found strange that Re doesn't provide anything to parse a file
<jpdeplaix>
whitequark: the main feature of OASIS which makes it overcomplicated is the fact that it writes itself in the setup.ml (the normal setup), I think.
<jpdeplaix>
2014-10-15 17:46:56 jpdeplaix gasche: is ocamlbuild supposed to stop target compilation after the first error ? Like if I do « ocamlbuild a.cmo b.cmo », if a.cmo fails, b.cmo will not be compiled.
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* whitequark
sighs
<whitequark>
so I'm patching utop to not require camlp4
<whitequark>
even if I do that, it still depends on OASIS
<whitequark>
and OASIS depends on ocaml-data-notation, also, I don't even know why, and that depends on type_conv
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<whitequark>
wow, you can do this in ocamlbuild: let prod1 = "%(name: <*> and not <*.cppo>).ml" in
<whitequark>
i.e. embed lhs tag syntax inside rules
<Drup>
gasche: stop being so politically correct, productive ranting is a fine, that's how you make most things move forward and completely unproductive is not as common as you make it sound.
<Drup>
</rant>
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<whitequark>
gasche: he's right, that remark was off limits and unfair
<whitequark>
errr I mean Drup
<whitequark>
gah I made it even more confusing
<whitequark>
I'll just kill some more camlp4 instead
<whitequark>
burrrrrn
<rks`>
did I /ignore gasche by accident? I don't understand what you guys are talking about
<whitequark>
rks`: I said a rude thing about OASIS's author and gasche asked me to not do this. I agreed. end of story basically
<whitequark>
... I removed lwt.syntax from BuildDepends: and utop still builds
<whitequark>
what
<Drup>
whitequark: my remark is more general about gasche's attitude. Sure, we should avoid being rude and all that, but not to the point of not pointing out things that are deeply wrong, just because "the guy poured a lot of hours into his work".
<whitequark>
oh, it *also* requires camlp4 in _tags
<whitequark>
brb crying
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<whitequark>
why is there camlp5 support in utop
<whitequark>
it's not even in _oasis, you can't possibly use it
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<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: I agree, but it's the difference between "you're a moron" and "you'd better do this instead" (I've been guilty of the former a lot)
<Drup>
yes
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<MercurialAlchemi>
You just end up in a pointless fight and don't achieve anything this way
<MercurialAlchemi>
That's why I avoid the "You're a moron" option in Crucible when doing a code review :D
<Drup>
btw whitequark, in cppo, you can do "#if OCAML_MAJOR >= 3 && OCAML_MINOR >= 10"
<whitequark>
Drup: yes, fuck that
<Drup>
and they're built in, no need to pass a flag
<Drup>
hum, ok =')
<whitequark>
see, write out a full equivalent for ocaml_version >= (4, 02, 1)
<Drup>
ok, ok =')
<whitequark>
it's something along the lines of #if OCAML_MAJOR > 4 || (OCAML_MAJOR == 4 && (OCAML_MINOR > 2 || OCAML_MINOR == 2 && OCAML_PATCHLEVEL >= 1))
<whitequark>
not only this looks horrible, it is also error-prone
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<whitequark>
Drup: hm, why is there no Lwt.raise?
<whitequark>
oh, it's Lwt.fail
<Drup>
Lwt.fail
<Drup>
whitequark: I was going to open a ticket to request tuple support
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<whitequark>
it's a lot of complexity
<whitequark>
I don't really care if it's tuples or ints
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<Drup>
I'm actually surprised we use "'B" and not some horrible generated name
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<ToTheInternet>
Hello. I installed libocamlnet-ocaml-dev on debian, now i have ftp_client.cmi and ftp_client.mli in /usr/lib/ocaml/netclient. But in interactive mode, when i do: open Ftp_client;; i get an error saying Unbound module Ftp_client
<ToTheInternet>
'ocamlfind list' outputs a list of installed packages, but ocamlnet is not in that list
<ToTheInternet>
so i'm wondering, if installing modules from the distribution repository is not a good idea, or if my way of open the module is simply wrong
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<Drup>
ToTheInternet: what is the result of "where `ocamlfind`" ?
<Drup>
meh, without backquotes, obviously
<ToTheInternet>
Drup: i assume you mean 'which ocamlfind' ? The result of that is: /home/totheinternet/.opam/system/bin/ocamlfind
<Drup>
ok, so you're using opam, so you should install everything through opam
<ToTheInternet>
i see. i set this stuff up more than a year ago and haven't used it since, so i don't remember
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<Drup>
ToTheInternet: "opam install ocamlnet" and go take a coffee :)
<ToTheInternet>
Drup: yeah, its installing already. at first it failed compiling a dependency but when i ran it as root it compiled just fine
<Drup>
You shouldn't run it as room
<Drup>
root*
<ToTheInternet>
after running it again as user the compilation of the dependency (ssl.0.4.6) doesn't fail anymore. weird.
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<ToTheInternet>
ok, so it installed fine, couldn't even finish my coffee. but 'ocamlfind list' still doesn't list it
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<tane>
ToTheInternet, what about "netstring"?
<ToTheInternet>
tane: yes, netstring is listed. i installed ocamlnet version 3.7.3, and 'ocamlfind list | grep 3.7.3' lists a bunch of modules. netstring, netclient, rpc, and like 15 more
<tane>
yes
<tane>
ocamlnet is a bundle of packages
<ToTheInternet>
tane: so i guess it was installed? but still: open Ftp_client;; gives an error saying Unbound module Ftp_client
<tane>
so it is installed
<tane>
did opam update your .ocamlinit?
<Drup>
ToTheInternet: #require "some_module" ;;
<Drup>
(I don't know which one, sorry, you need to fine the one implementing ftp)
<Drup>
find*
<ToTheInternet>
tane: ~/.ocamlinit was last modified in april
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<tane>
ToTheInternet, #require "netclient";;
<ToTheInternet>
tane: Unknown directive `require'
<Drup>
#use "topfind" ;; before then
<ToTheInternet>
yes. thats it. now it works
<ToTheInternet>
i assume i only need this stuff in interactive mode though?
<Drup>
yes
<nicoo>
ToTheInternet: Yes, but you need to tell your buildsystem about the packages you require, instead
<ToTheInternet>
thanks. so now i can try if ocaml suites my need. i want to write a fuzzer for an FTP server. i just read that ocaml doesn't support UTF8 or Unicode, i guess that's something i would need for a fuzzer lol
<Drup>
ToTheInternet: There are several libraries for utf8, don't worry
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<gasche>
Drup: why is there a local module?
<Drup>
to ensure generalization. jerome's trick, I'm not responsible :D