adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org and http://caml.inria.fr | http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.0.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<whitequark> Drup: well, it's an utop dependency
<Drup> I know
<Drup> arrrg, it's that late, I should go to bed >_>
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<whitequark> Drup: btw you had some LLVM patches I think?
<whitequark> I received an approval to merge C API changes on as-needed basis, so we can now upstream it much quicker
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<companion_cube> o/
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<uggwar> using core seems to remove parts from std lib; why so? Eg. Sys.time is gone
<adrien> it shadows modules from the stdlib
<adrien> also
<adrien> are you sure it's Sys.time you want?
<uggwar> no. not sure at all :-)
<adrien> bec Return the processor time, in seconds, used by the program since the
<adrien> beginning of execution.
<uggwar> i'm a noob
<adrien> s/bec/because/
<adrien> it's not the clock time
<uggwar> what's a good way to get high precision timing?
<adrien> look for clock_gettime; I'm not sure it's available in Core since I don't know that lib
<adrien> an alternative is gettimeofday which is often precise enough
<uggwar> thanks! i'm not sure core will work for me either, since i have problems building it on my raspberry pi...
<adrien> clock_gettime is the best timing function but it's not available everywhere and therefore not bound in the standard library
<adrien> I guess ext_unix has it
<whitequark> uggwar: try `oclock`
<whitequark> it's basically a clock_gettime binding
<uggwar> whitequark: building it now. thanks!
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<companion_cube> core must be long to compile on a rpi
<adrien> does the rpi even has enough memory?
<whitequark> people compile LLVM on rpi
<whitequark> it takes about 35 hours if I recall
<adrien> and then they build webkit and qt
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<whitequark> probably not
<adrien> these people don't know how to have fun
<companion_cube> oh dear.
<companion_cube> whitequark: did you see my new release? ;)
<whitequark> no
<companion_cube> (containers)
<whitequark> >module Opt = CCOpt
<whitequark> Option :<
<whitequark> for everything else the type name and module name is the same
<companion_cube> oh, in CCPervasives
<companion_cube> right, I should have though of that
<whitequark> I would even say it should be CCOption too but I don't have a strong opinion on that
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<companion_cube> anyway, that's bikshedding, isn't it? :)
<whitequark> so?
<whitequark> you say it like it's something bad
<adrien> the total absence of bikeshedding leads to C++
<companion_cube> sure, I'll do module Option = CCOpt
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<flux> not bad, though I've found emacs useful for this use as well (as mentioned in the mailing list): http://www.coherentpdf.com/exnsource.png
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<Drup> whitequark: right now, I'm very tempted to write a ppx that transforms "Lwt.return ()" (resp [], None, false, true) into Lwt.return_unit (resp ..) :D
<whitequark> do it
<whitequark> actually, just add it to ppx_lwt.
<Drup> certainly not by default.
<Drup> and I will call the option "silly little optimisation"
<whitequark> I would say by default
<whitequark> I see no issues that could come from that
<Drup> I can't think of any scenario where it would bite you in the ass, but I'm sure it exists.
<whitequark> I don't think it does
<Drup> (I overloaded Lwt.return once, when writing the ppx for lwt, "Lwt.return" was emiting the relevant ast ...)
<Drup> (but the ppx was not called on itself, so it's """safe""")
<whitequark> ...
<whitequark> you've engineered your own demise, I would say
<Drup> what, it was very clever ! :D
<Drup> (I also did it for jsoo's ppx)
<whitequark> holy crap, someone made a textmate snippet for *every stdlib function*
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<Drup> I hope it's auto-generated
<whitequark> I'm ... not so sure
<Drup> "8 years ago"
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<whitequark> 4.01 already exports compiler-libs as a package, right?
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<whitequark> it does
<whitequark> in unrelated news I broke camlp4 support in utop
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<Drup> whitequark: there you go https://github.com/ocsigen/lwt/pull/94
<Drup> I hope it's never going to be merged x)
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<whitequark> *facedesk*
<companion_cube> easy, easy
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<whitequark> it's related to camlp4.
<whitequark> after removing support for camlp4, I exposed some sleeping bug in utop, and now I have to spend my time fixing the fucking camlp4
<companion_cube> oh. Good luck then.
<whitequark> this chain of logic is thoroughly absurd, and yet here I am: fixing camlp4 in order to remove support for camlp4
<companion_cube> I'm not sure I follow either
<whitequark> well, #camlp4o;; still has to work
<companion_cube> oh, I see
<companion_cube> or it could raise Not_found;;
<companion_cube> ;)
<whitequark> no, people want type_conv and all that
<whitequark> but how utop itself doesn't depend on camlp4 and I exposed some bug that is re
<whitequark> that is related to load order or something, I'm not exactly sure yet
<whitequark> and it breaks
<whitequark> it breaks in a really weird way, too
<whitequark> it seems like topfind has a split brain situation
<whitequark> I mean findlib
<whitequark> but only if #use "topfind" is in my .ocamlinit
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<whitequark> OH HAHAHAHA
<whitequark> so
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<whitequark> it does some "expunge" thing to make uTop_top.top out of uTop_top.byte
<whitequark> or maybe the other way around
<whitequark> and uTop_top.top works, but uTop_top.byte is broken.
<whitequark> right, if findlib (or rather Topfind) is not an explicit dependency anymore, that would make a split-brain
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<whitequark> ... and the reason is, there is some hack in myocamlbuild to gather the dependencies, and it quietly broke, possibly when I upgraded OASIS to 0.4 from 0.3.
<whitequark> I don't want to be alive
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<whitequark> ... ocamlbuild extends the stdlib String?
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<hcarty> Has the handling of git tags changed in opam 1.2.0?
<hcarty> I have a local repository with a package defined with a git URL (ssh://host:post/repo/#v0.1.0). This works under opam 1.1.0. Under 1.2.0rc4 I get "fatal: Couldn't find remote ref v0.1.0"
<hcarty> "port" not "post"
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<thomasga> does pack and module aliases are supposed to work well together?
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<thomasga> hcarty: report on the bug tracker, looks like a regression ...
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<whitequark> thomasga: I think they're orthogonal
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<thomasga> whitequark: hum … I don't understand https://travis-ci.org/ocaml/opam-repository/jobs/38498467 this is working fine on 4.01 …
<thomasga> and the only thing I could think of is: Nocrypto is a pack, SHA1 is an alias
<whitequark> oh, interesting
<whitequark> possibly a compiler bug, report it
<thomasga> yup, testing a bit more
<thomasga> and I'll do
<whitequark> but OTOH: no reason to use packs and aliases together
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<hcarty> thomasga: Looks that way. Thanks, will do.
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<_obad_> hi guys. is there an automated way of creating a debian package for an oasis program, with proper dependencies?
<whitequark> not really. there's oasis2debian but it is broken.
<_obad_> I see
<_obad_> actually I have a CLI that uses lambda-term, and the resulting binary has no dependencies, except that it insists on using the camomile unicode database
<whitequark> this is a known problem with camomile.
<_obad_> I guess I could ask the user to install their system's version of camomile
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<pyon> Can top-level modules (that is, modules that correspond to individual *.ml files) be mutually recursive?
<Drup> no
<pyon> Oh, well.
<mrvn> you can lift the recursion
<mrvn> or have a common file and then include each half of the recursive modules in the top-level files
<pyon> Makes sense. :-)
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<ggole> I find that really annoying on occasion
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<ollehar> if I want refined types, should I learn agda instead of coq?
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<Drup> depends, do you want to do proofs or programs ?
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<Anarchos> ollehar what is a refined type ?
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<ollehar> Drup: programs
<ollehar> Anarchos: where int is not only int, but maybe 0 < i < 10
<Anarchos> ok
<Drup> ollehar: then Agda, or Idris
<Drup> (or Haskell ....)
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<Drup> there is refinement framework in Haskell, but meh.
<mrvn> ollehar: you can encode limits into phantom types
<Drup> ahah mrvn, cute.
<Drup> yeah, and you can count unary with types
<Drup> don't do that.
<mrvn> looks like someone puked but it works.
<ollehar> mrvn: yeah, I know, have done it
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<mrvn> Drup: you can count dezimal with phantom types too
<ollehar> time to take the next step
<Drup> ollehar: If you really want to experiment on programming with dependent types, I would say Idris. Just be aware that it is, indeed, experimental.
<ollehar> hm
<ollehar> OK
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<Bluddy> whitequark: any chance on supporting inline records in utop?
<Drup> Bluddy: what's the issue ?
<whitequark> Parsetree changed
<whitequark> Bluddy: can you open an issue?
<Bluddy> sure
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<Drup> https://github.com/ocsigen/lwt/pull/94#issuecomment-59821934 this is so beautiful, micro-optim delicacies. =')
<ollehar> in coq you can actually give a function the type `n > 0 -> nat`
<Drup> ollehar: sure you can
<Drup> well, it's not *exactly* this one
<Drup> but with dependent types, it's quite easy
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<sinelaw> hi. in: let x = []
<sinelaw> what is the type of x?
<adrien> 'a list
<sinelaw> oops.
<adrien> rather
<sinelaw> let x = ref []
<ggole> '_a list
<ggole> :)
<sinelaw> is what I really meant.
<adrien> 'a list ref
<adrien> as ggole said :)
<ggole> Yeah, with a ref
<adrien> "'_a list ref" then
<ggole> The '_a means that the type variable can only every be one type
<sinelaw> I know that the compiler ends up assigning an "unknown type" (not type variable) to x and later collapses it to a certain value. Is this what the _ indicates?
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<ggole> It's not polymorphic like let x = [] can be
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<ggole> Yes.
<sinelaw> right, value restriction.
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<ggole> OCaml has a relaxed variant of the value restriction
<sinelaw> so may actual question is, how is does this fit into hindley-milner
<sinelaw> *how does
<sinelaw> ggole, let's assume no relaxation
<sinelaw> I'm trying to see how this can be implemented
<ggole> Well
<sinelaw> normally one associates variable names with type schemes
<sinelaw> e.g. forall a. a list
<sinelaw> so in this case it would just be: a list (no quantification)
<ggole> Traditionally polymorphism is done by generalising, that is, creating type schemas for, let bound values, and instantiating the type schema (making the relevant type variables fresh) at each use of the variable.
<sinelaw> yeah
<ggole> If you simply don't make the type variables fresh, then you get essentially the '_a behaviour
<sinelaw> but we do know the structure of the type at the time of the let binding
<sinelaw> right?
<ggole> Yep
<ggole> You should be able to tell which variables to generalise and which not to at that point
<sinelaw> ok. I'm trying to implement value restriction in another syntax and i'm kinda stuck because you have sepearate variable declaration and variable assignment
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<sinelaw> (not actually stuck, because there is an obvious ugly solution)
<sinelaw> ggole, so when the variable is declared, nothing is known about it at all.
<ggole> Hmm.
<ggole> I guess you have to delay things until you do somehow.
<ggole> That does sound a bit messy.
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<sinelaw> yes.
<sinelaw> ggole, I tried by assigning it a fresh type variable
<sinelaw> that is wrong because it leaves it polymorphic
<ggole> Yeah. You really need to wait until you see the term.
<sinelaw> I mean i tried to assign it a quantified type schema
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<ggole> Is it like Java's assignment rules? You can do int x; if (cond()) { x = 1; } else { x = 2; }?
<sinelaw> yes, but in java you have type ascriptions
<sinelaw> so no problem.
<troydm> any llvm binding experts here?
<troydm> I have a slight problem with LLVM kaleidoscope tutorial
<ggole> I think you'll need to walk the function collecting every initialising assignment, and then union their types... blurgh.
<sinelaw> ggole, more like C#: var x; if ... x = 1 else x = 2
<sinelaw> actually C# disallows that :)
<ggole> Right, same issue there.
<sinelaw> var decls are required to assign unambiguous values
<troydm> namely this line of code refuses to compile with llvm 3.4 bindings DataLayout.add (ExecutionEngine.target_data the_execution_engine) the_fpm;
<ggole> Anyway, I have to go: good luck with your problem o/
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<troydm> I've found that DataLayout.add function name changed to DataLayout.add_to_pass_manager
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<troydm> however I can't find ExecutionEngine.target_data function nor it's changed equivalent
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<companion_cube> can't wait for opam to distinguish between dependencies and compilation dependencies
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<pyon> How do I configure OCaml to use Batteries instead of the default standard library?