ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
* rgrinberg raises hand
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<darryn> rgrinberg: How did you go about that? How did you get the job?
<rgrinberg> darryn: never worried about that. I programmed for years just as a hobby
<rgrinberg> eventually it was just obvious that i should just do that
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<nullcat__> rgrinberg: r u math major?
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<flux> I think a good editor with macro functionality might help there?
<flux> oops, in the backlog I was. but it was to denommus :)
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<Drup> haven't read yet, but related to things we discussed
<ggole> Hmm, looks interesting
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<ggole> This sounds a lot like I've been trying to design IRs
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<ggole> A dialect of Rust?!
<ggole> Drup: this is a really interesting paper
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<Drup> haven't read yet :3
<flux> yeah, don't spoil it for him ;)
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<Drup> #articlespoiler "At the end, the theorem is proven."
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<ggole> I totally agree with all the arguments that nesting and renaming are silly and just get in the way
<ggole> And Stephen Weeks said pretty much the same thing (about nesting - MLTon uses textual names iirc)
<ggole> The graph IR is also pretty much what I expected, except that function nesting is entirely a matter of data dependencies
<ggole> I ran into trouble with this part of the design because I didn't know how to handle cycles (eg, let rec + mutual recursion) - the paper doesn't quite make the details clear on that question, unless I missed something.
<Drup> I like the sentence: "However,as we will see, enthusiastic GADT users were more cleverthan the checker, and they got exhaustiveness warningswhere none should be"
<adrien_znc> users, always a problem
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<Drup> "The solution to this conundrum is to actually do all ofthese simultaneously." famous last words of algorithm designers.
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<thomasga> is there any way to make Format.ifprintf faster?
<adrien_znc> replace with ikfprintf? :P
<flux> didn't the gadt-based format strings already speed up those functions a bit?
<flux> profiling might tell what's taking so long in ifprintf, then just don't do it ;)
<Drup> thomasga: fwiw, flambda provides a rather important speed boost to formatters ...
<thomasga> the GADT is still trying to interpret the arguments types
<thomasga> that's slow
<Drup> yeah
<thomasga> (especially in a loop in the hot path)
<flux> it isn't the dealing with buffers and maybe copying stuff that's slow?
<Drup> thomasga: it's a know issue, unfortunatly
<thomasga> is there a work-around?
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<Drup> not without Obj.magic
<thomasga> give me the runes
<flux> use pp_print_ and friends instead of format strings?
<thomasga> flux: I'd like to use the usual format strings if possible :-)
<Drup> thomasga: the other (better ?) solution is to manually do the if
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<Drup> The whole issue come down to "ikfprintf must evaluate the GADT in order to have the correct type"
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<flux> aren't there ppx-based loggers that would write that ugliness for you?
<Drup> thomasga: the good part is that, with flambda, the compiler realize that you are building a string for nothing and just eliminate all that crap
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<Drup> thomasga: so in your place, i would use whatever evil mean temporarily until the compiler get smarter, which should happen soon enough.
<thomasga> great, let push the flamba branch into trunk then :p
<thomasga> Drup: what is your Obj.magic trick?
<Drup> I'm not sure it actually works, in fact
<Drup> give me a sec, asking someone more expert. :D
<Drup> the expert is busy
<Drup> thomasga: the idea was to Obj.magic ignore to the right type, but the variable arity will cause issues
<Drup> (and by issues, I mean segfault)
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<Drup> thomasga: Is this a big problem to break the interface later ?
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<Drup> If no, just use your current hack for now :/
<thomasga> Drup: no
<Drup> are you starting the work on the general logging framework that anil mailed about ?
<thomasga> just on a specific framework for now on
<Drup> Ok
<thomasga> which can be later expanded to something more general
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<Drup> So, it lacks the hierarchical stuff for now, right.
<Drup> (It's like a Lwt_log without the crud :p)
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<companion_cube> Drup: why don't you say anything to the people who rewrite another log framework? :p
<Drup> companion_cube: because there is no correct non-lwt non-async minimalist log framework with proper (hierarchical) sectioning
<Drup> Dolog doesn't handle sectioning
<companion_cube> well then just patch dolog
<Drup> You do realize it means basically removing all Dolog code (100 lines ? :D) and rewriting it ?
<Drup> I mean, it's just adding constraint for compatibility, the concept of the log library is just different
<companion_cube> it's modifying it
<companion_cube> https://github.com/c-cube/logtk/blob/master/src/base/logtkUtil.mli#L39 <--- also you can merge dolog with this :P
<Drup> You see, you reinveted yours and you didn't patched dolog.
<companion_cube> yes, I think this existed before dolog
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<Drup> Il y a des papiers pour apprendre un hypergraph caché <3
<adrien_znc> ECHAN :)
<Drup> oups.
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<tonyg> hi all, is it true that (v = w) iff (Obj.repr v = Obj.repr w)? experiments suggest so, but it'd be good to get an authoritative judgement
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<samae> In the toplevel, how can one load a module that requires external C functions? The said functions are available in the same folder in an object file compiled from C.
<ggole> With the caveat that Obj isn't supposed to be used: Obj.repr is just the identity function
<tonyg> ggole: thanks. That sounds plausible :)
<ggole> So this boils down to v = w iff v = w
<tonyg> excellent.
<ggole> Can I ask why you want to know this?
<tonyg> i'm experimenting with implementing a kind of pattern-matching dispatch
<ggole> I assume you are well versed in the dangers.
<tonyg> heh :) yeah, ish
<tonyg> i'm finding out whether there's enough structure available in the runtime representations to let my idea fly or not
<tonyg> if not, never mind; but if so, ocaml would make a nice platform to demo what i have in mind
<ggole> Using Obj for experiments is fine, of course
<ggole> What's the idea?
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<tonyg> i work on messaging middleware. i'm exploring the possibility of using polymorphic variants across the bus to avoid having to reify messages so much
<tonyg> other options include making use of metaprogramming facilities
<tonyg> i'm not at the point of making firm decisions yet
<ggole> real world ocaml has a reasonable description of the structure of polymorphic variants, iirc
<tonyg> yep, it does
<tonyg> thank you
<Drup> it sounds like you will want to reimplement Marshal.
<tonyg> Drup: sort of. i need some way of embedding wildcards in values, which is... awkward in ocaml's type system.
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<tonyg> actually the more i think about it, the more i think this idea of mine won't work in ocaml. i need runtime representations of types, which IIUC are not available in any form
<tonyg> modulo possibly via some metaprogramming path i am not yet aware of
<jrslepak> if you ever run across a really nice way of doing "runtime representations of types," let me know
<Drup> metaocaml can certainly do a ton of stuff, but runtime introspection of *values* is not one of them
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<ggole> GADTs can reify types pretty effectively
<tonyg> jrslepak: yo
<Drup> ggole: not in the presence of subtyping
<ggole> I think there's even a proposal to add such a library to OCaml
<jrslepak> tonyg: saw you and momentarily thought this was another channel
<ggole> Drup: another instance of "subtyping ruins everything", eh?
<Drup> ggole: or "gadt ruins everything", your choice ;)
<ggole> Why not both?
<Drup> non exclusive or :3
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<samae> In the toplevel, how can one load a module that requires external C functions? The said functions are available in the same folder in an object file compiled from C.
<samae> I'm using `ocamlmktop` with the `-custom` option and I pass it my .o files
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<samae> Is there any else I should know. When I start my custom toplevel, it still complains about a missing external function…
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<dsheets> can someone remind me of a trick to make recursive functions polymorphic in functional parameters?
<Drup> "'a . ..." ?
<dsheets> this seems to make it *too* polymorphic somehow and I get type generality errors
<dsheets> one sec, i'm getting a mincase
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<dsheets> let rec aux : 'a. _ -> ('a -> int) -> 'a -> int = fun i f x -> if i = 0 then f x else aux (i-1) (~-) x;;
<dsheets> oops sorry that's not quite right
<dsheets> hmm perhaps i'm tired and have made a type, thanks Drup
<dsheets> s/type/typo/
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<dsheets> ya, i need to type my types correctly and polymorphize the inner and outer function
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<xificurC> I read through the list of changes for 4.02.2+rc1 but didn't catch anything special. Are there some improvements you are excited about?
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<Drup> xificurC: the necessary stuff for codoc
<Drup> the necessary stuff for jsoo's ppx
<Drup> Some people are going to be very interested by the cross compil stuff
<Drup> but really, :codoc hype:
<flux> well, stack traces in gdb is the only that caught my eye
<flux> but it's ok to have boring releases 8-)
<Drup> the next one will probably not be boring
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<xificurC> Drup: yeah I saw android being mentioned, is that new?
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<xificurC> didn't see codoc mentioned, nice
<Drup> codoc is not mentioned because it's only "the necessary stuff for ..."
<Drup> (the relevant line is "- GPR#149: Attach documentation comments to parse tree (Leo White)")
<flux> well it doesn't seem the next release after that is going to be super exiting either?
<Drup> flux: flambda.
<Drup> (at least)
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<xificurC> well codoc is dsheets' lib which isn't part of the ocaml compiler right. Still they could mention why were some changes implemented :)
<flux> drup, where is it here? http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/roadmap_page.php
<Drup> xificurC: they don't mention js_of_ocaml in the section about ## either :D
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<Drup> it make senses, the change was motivated by it, but is more general and can be used for other things as well
<xificurC> yes well that's why I came to ask if there's anything sexy :)
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<flux> but not in mantis roadmap?-(
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<Drup> apparently not
<flux> in any case, flambda is going to be nice
<flux> and comparisons to mlton would be interesting
<Drup> according to damien, there is also going to be multicore in 4.03, we will see how ready it is by that time
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<thomasga1> Drup: a solid prototype will be ready, but I doubt anything more than that will be there… but we'll see!
<Drup> thomasga1: that was my instinct as well, but I don't have any real internal information on this work (as opposed to flambda :p)
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<octachron> What is the status of camlp4 in regards of the 4.02.2 version? Testing the rc version while avoiding all the package that depends on camlp4 seems ... impractical.
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<raboof> it looks like janestreet core_kernel uses pa_ounit for tests.
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<raboof> it's unclear to me how to run those, though - doesn't appear to be simply 'make test'. Any pointers?
<Drup> ./configure --enable test
<Drup> or --enable-test
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<raboof> hmm, i changed a testcase and did './configure --enable-tests; make clean; make test' - didn't fail
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