ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<MercurialAlchemi> Drup: yeah, I disappeared brutally
<MercurialAlchemi> hm
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<MercurialAlchemi> I think being able to compose filters (eg, have y=z as an independent part, and be able to attach it to the query via an 'and' or 'or' operator, at least, is important
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<Algebr> Why won't the type system allow this, http://pastebin.com/sDeshprJ
<Algebr> Also interestingly Random.int throws an exception on Random.int max_int;;
<Algebr> but Random.float max_float works...I am confused.
<flux> hmm, very good question I think
<Algebr> I thought that the array would be 'a array, I would be fine but its not the case
<Algebr> Nice, open since 2005.
<flux> nope
<flux> it's _closed_ :)
<flux> algebr, you would need gadts to make a function like that
<flux> algebr, a value cannot really be polymorphic
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<Algebr> okay, well it should be opened since I'm getting this on osx..
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<flux> algebr, if you had a value of type 'a array, it means you can write and read any kind of values into/from it
<Algebr> I don't understand the type issue though. Isn't that the point of doing 'a array?
<flux> so like write integers and read strings, leading to crashy times
<Algebr> I'm still not seeing it the issue, what should I be googling for.
<flux> hmm
<flux> well, it's how the type inference works
<flux> ok, let's have a simpler example
<flux> let array = if Random.int 2 > 0 then [|1|] else [|"hello"|]
<flux> then I have expression: array.(0) + 1 - should this expression compile?
<Algebr> heh, as soon as I saw your message two previous I immediately got it.
<Algebr> damn
<flux> the usual way of doing is: `Int -> `Int (Array.init ...) | `Float -> `Float (Array.init ...)
<flux> but GADTs now provide a direct way to do it
<flux> type 'a nums = Int : int nums | Float : float nums
<flux> (sadly GADTs don't work with polymorphic variants that you've used)
<Algebr> I keep hitting GADTs
<flux> it's because they are a new feature
<flux> cool one at that.. ;-)
<flux> but many struggle to find use for them. and I think they indeed should be used sparingly.
<Algebr> this is the second time I'm hitting a use case for them, its annoying
<flux> how are you going to use that random_array, though, in the later code?
<Algebr> interesting in that you didn't have to change the code all that much
<flux> btw, the "did_init" is pointless
<flux> the code is giong to be evaluated once when the let random_array = .. is evaluated
<flux> and then never again
<flux> if you want it to work in a lazy fashion you would move the 'did_init' inside the 'fun'
<Algebr> What the heck, this only works once
<Algebr> Why is the type becoming determined..?
<flux> oops :)
<flux> hmm, I wonder if it's because of the code between let and fun..
<flux> yep
<flux> there are some syntactic rules that lead to that '_a -type you are seeing
<flux> http://pastebin.com/ikGUKfTd results in polymorphic types
<flux> the '_a is something one sees in types that don't yet have their type fixed, and once you use them, it becomes fixed
<flux> no, scratch that: ..in values that are _potentially_ mutable and don't yet have their type fixed
<flux> ie. [|None|]
<flux> the rules how let a = [|None|] is '_a option array yet let a () = [|None|] is () -> 'a option array are at play here I think
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<Algebr> the (type t) is that private types? also isn't clear to me. this feels like a lot of type system voodoo.
<flux> it's called the "value restriction"
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<flux> it gives you a type you can use locally, as its scope is the whole function
<flux> with 'a the scope is only the left side of the = -character
<Algebr> so its like an anonymous type, sort of, that's only in the scope of this one function
<flux> a bit like yes.. it's like a polymorphic type describing an input value, an output value, a local variable or some combination thereof, that needs to be polymorphic
<Algebr> how does one learn about this besides IRC
<flux> it's useful as well if you want to write a function that works on polymorphic values and want to ensure your function doesn't accidentally turn into monomorphic one
<flux> for example: let identity : 'a -> 'a = fun a -> a + 1 -> 'a becomes 'int' here
<flux> let identity (type t) (a : a) : a = a + 1 -> compilation error
<flux> algebr, ah, there was another bug that explains it: http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/print_bug_page.php?bug_id=3672
<flux> not sure why it's this way, though. probably to have better reproducability between 32- and 64-bit programs :-o
<flux> it's a very common isue according to google
<Algebr> so I wonder why its still broken
<flux> maybe someone(TM) wants random integer sequences to be reproducible between 32- and 64-bit programs
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<Algebr> this also doesn't work, trying to get that peak random number input http://pastebin.com/8C8KJxg6
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<flux> Random.int (1 lsl 30 - 1) is the largest it will work with
<flux> if you want to allow for results that include that value, then you need to use Random.bits ()
<ggole> Algebr: what are you trying to do there?
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<Algebr> I wanted a random integer from among all the possible integer the machine can produce.
<Algebr> which works for float, Random.float max_float
<Algebr> but I'll settle for 1 lsl 30 - 1
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<ggole> That won't produce negative numbers
<Algebr> amending my previous statement to say natural numbers
<ggole> OK
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<keep_learning> Hello Everyone
<keep_learning> I am trying to install Ocaml 4.02.2
<flux> algebr, use Random.nativeint then?
<keep_learning> and when I am trying opam switch 4.02.2
<keep_learning> it says "4.02.2" is not a valid compiler.
<flux> keep_learning, well, it doesn't list 4.02.2 in the there?
<flux> keep_learning, did you try opam update ?
<keep_learning> Today I deleted the .opam and .ocamlinit from my home directory and
<keep_learning> and ran opam init
<flux> the argument to opam switch comes from the list opam switch produces, so the problem is actually "why isn't 4.02.2 listed there"
<flux> so I think opam update might be a good thing to try out.
<keep_learning> flux: Thank you
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<keep_learning> flux: Updating it right now.
<keep_learning> flux: I have updated it
<keep_learning> but it's still not showing 4.02.2 version
<flux> keep_learning, which version of opam do you have?
<flux> perhaps you need the 1.2.2 version for it to work
<keep_learning> flux: mukeshtiwari$ opam --version 1.0.0
<flux> oh, that's very old
<keep_learning> 1.0.0
<flux> so pretty sure that's the problem
<keep_learning> flux: I should update my opam version ?
<flux> definitely
<flux> start from the scratch once again :-)
<flux> also as a general note about using opam: you should have "aspcud" installed, it really makes the dependency resolver better (even if this doesn't affect this problem)
<flux> even opam 1.2.0 beta seems to be almost a year old at this point
<flux> but good luck, I need to be moving
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<keep_learning_> flux: Sorry got disconnected.
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<keep_learning_> brew install opam will help ?
<Algebr> presumably you'll want to do brew update first
<keep_learning_> Yes
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<emma> hi guys.. what can you tell me about ocaml.. i know nothing. but im curious. It seems so exotic
<Algebr> emma: its a really fun programming language and it hits the sweet spot in terms of speed, expressiveness and abstraction. Oh course that's opinion
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<emma> what makes it unique?
<emma> how do you pronounce it?
<Algebr> O-Caml
<emma> okay
<emma> what family of languages is it in?
<Algebr> ML
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<Algebr> functional programming as well
<emma> is ML a language also?
<emma> does O stand for open?
<Algebr> O stands for Objective, OCaml has objects as well
<emma> so there must be a caml
<Algebr> ML is a family of languages, and ml is a language as well from the 70s.
<Algebr> supposedly there is a caml, and a caml-light or something (That's history)
<Algebr> was*
<Algebr> so F# is in the ML family as well
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<emma> is haskell in the family?
<Algebr> in common languge I would say yes, but maybe not in the strict technical answer. I don't know.
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<emma> so it is very mathematical?
<emma> Algebr: what sort of things have you made with ocaml?
<destrius> wikipedia has a decent summary of ocaml and haskell, that could be a good starting point for learning more about the languages
<Algebr> Its a programming language, so I guess it can be as mathematical as you want. I made a terminal game https://github.com/fxfactorial/lambda-invaders , used it to talk to Amazon web services, now I have a job in it
<emma> sweet
<destrius> its mathematical in the sense that variables and functions work the way they do in maths, as long as you don't have any side effects
<Algebr> its pretty sure, I love ocaml.
<destrius> which is a property of most functional languages
<Algebr> sweet*
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<companion_cube> o/
<nullcat_> morning /
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<nullcat_> companion_cube: "This expression has type string/3 but an expression was expected of type string/15 ← interesting error message though"
<nullcat_> encountered this on Tuesday
<nullcat_> :(
<companion_cube> oh
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<nullcat_> and then I asked people in lab if they use merlin when they hack compiler. none
<companion_cube> this error is still 100× better than not having merlin
<nullcat_> yeah
<nullcat_> 100x
<nullcat_> we also probably discovered some bug of opam-compiler-conf... i couldn't describe clearly but when you switch compiler using opam-compiler-conf, and then u open editor and use merlin... it doesn't work
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<companion_cube> nullcat_: where do you work?
<nullcat_> you need to use opam-compiler-conf to remove your local branch and reinstall it
<nullcat_> just interning at ocamllab...
<companion_cube> oh ok, nice
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<nullcat_> anyway, using merlin when hacking compiler is not really pleasant
<nullcat_> i asked jeremy if he uses merlin. he said no and suggested me a guy called Francis (* cannot remember the exact name*). he said that guy probably uses merlin with compiler hacking
<flux> why is not pleaseant? I would expect the reverse to be true.
<nullcat_> ok, it's not perfect
<flux> or is the tree too difficult for it somehow?
<nullcat_> it shows weird error that bothers programmer
<nullcat_> btw, http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/comp.html what is warning 22? is that a typo?
<flux> must be
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<flux> I have gained a bit more appreciation for merlin now that I've been using Eliom and it doesn't seem to work with that.. :)
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<ollehar> what was the name of that validating software built by facebook in ocaml? it could check java and c.
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<ollehar> ah, infer
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<adrien_znc> s
<adrien_znc> EFOCUS :)
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<ia0> I am refactoring stuff (making the computation of a stuff optional)
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<ia0> And when the stuff is not computed I should add a new behavior where the stuff is used
<ia0> In haskell I would put undefined where I put the computed stuff and run the tests and see where it is used
<ia0> How can I do something like that in OCaml?
<companion_cube> can't you replace stuff with stuff option and see where the typer complains?
<ia0> (grep is of course the last resort option)
<companion_cube> or stuff Lazy.t
<ia0> Let's try the Lazy.t
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<keep_learning> Hello everyone
<keep_learning> could some one please tell me how to resolve this issue
<flux> ia0, you can get the effect of 'undefined' with "assert false" as far as I know
<flux> if you want to find the paths at runtime
<flux> alternative you can use failwith "descriptive message here"
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<flux> I actually like very much implementing new apis (that I have a good picture of in my head) by first writing the .mli, then filling in the .ml file with failwith "not implemented" implementations and then moving forward with the implementation.. or even test case if I feel TDDish enough!
<ia0> flux: yes I am actually using "Lazy.from_fun (fun () -> ignore (assert false); old_value)"
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<flux> well, you don't need to do any trickery, (fun () -> assert false) will work straight out of the box
<flux> assert false is handled specially by the compiler; it knows that it won't return, so it will have type 'a
<flux> (failwith works the same but without any special compiler support)
<ia0> Yes, it's just that I want to keep the old value which I will restore once the refactoring is done
<flux> ok :)
<flux> well, you could use comments :)
<ia0> yes :-)
<flux> maybe my version would have been too flexible anyway. this way you enforce the type.
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<nullcat> ``parser'' is a keyword because of camlp4?
<flux> it's not really a keyword
<flux> but some editors like to think that way because of a popular campl4 extension (used to be..)
<nullcat> ok
<nullcat> actually i remember i saw it in manual
<nullcat> but manual does not explain
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<Drup> flux: (about merlin and eliom) unfortunatly :(
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<flux> drup, ppx would fix it I suppose 8-), but I guess it's quite a task
<Drup> not completely
<flux> well, at the very least it would allow it to work outside client-contexts with ease? now it works nowhere
<flux> but I can see that the client side support might need some serious reworking..
<Drup> ?
<Drup> It's not that simple
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<hcarty> Does Lwt include something like a "val never : 'a Lwt.t" which sleeps forever?
<Drup> fst (Lwt.wait ())
<hcarty> Drup: Ah, of course. Thank you!
<Drup> (it might be cancellable, not sure)
<hcarty> Looks like it: Lwt.cancel (fst (Lwt.wait ())) returns immediately in utop
<Drup> you could make it non-cancelable if you want
<hcarty> That's what I want in this case. Effectively Lwt.pick [if flag then real_thread else sleep_forever; other_real_thread; ...]
<Drup> why not Lwt.pick (if flat then real_thread :: l else l) instead ?
<hcarty> Drup: That's what I have currently. The number of enabled/disabled threads could vary.
<hcarty> Though I suppose I could handle that by grouping them appropriately.
<Drup> let (+++) (b,t) l = if b then t :: l else l
<Drup> (flag, real_thread) ++ (flag, reall_thread) ++ ...
<Drup> :]
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<hcarty> :-)
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<Denommus> what libraries to use to make a REST client in OCaml?
<Denommus> I just want the client, not the server, for now
<hcarty> Denommus: Cohttp and the curl bindings are both usable as a client
<Denommus> hcarty: what about parsing JSON?
<Denommus> hcarty: also, does it support HTTPS?
<Drup> jsonm/ezjsonm for json
<Drup> and yes, it supports https
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<dmbaturin> Denommus: There's also a HTTP client in ocamlnet.
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<Denommus> thanks
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<def`> nullcat: maybe not Francis, but Georges?
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<nullcat> not sure
<nullcat> it's some name starting with F
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<creichert> does 'utop' load libraries in ~/.opam/$VER/lib? When I run plain ocaml toplevel the libraries are loaded, when I run 'utop' they are not (same .ocamlinit)
<creichert> I think I am wrong, running 'ocaml' just has more search path loading chatter
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<MercurialAlchemi> creichert: it loads libraries in the switch it is installed in, I think
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<SomeDamnBody> Is there any way to resolve circular dependencies in ocaml code?
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<SomeDamnBody> This is really annoying. I get my library to compile by providing mli files, but now it's being a pain in the ass because some modules aren't defined
<SomeDamnBody> WTF
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<zozozo> SomeDamnBody: do you really need circular dependencies for your modules ?
<SomeDamnBody> well it's for a library, and I really just need the damn thing to compile
<SomeDamnBody> honestly, I don't want to refactor it
<SomeDamnBody> but I had to in order to improve efficiency
<zozozo> you can always use recursive modules : http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/extn.html#sec220
<zozozo> but then all your modules need to be in the same file
<zozozo> but most likely, it is more of a problem with the way you designed your modules
<SomeDamnBody> *sigh
<SomeDamnBody> alright, well... I think I will back up and try and just change the function calls
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<SomeDamnBody> thanks zozozo
<SomeDamnBody> I wish I had known that co-recursive module implementation would be quite such a bother
<zozozo> well, to *need* recursive modules, you have to do something quite complex I think
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<zozozo> SomeDamnBody: I'm curious, what kind of library are you making ?
<SomeDamnBody> I'm not making a library, I'm improving one
<zozozo> ok, what does it do ?
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<SomeDamnBody> It's piqi
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<SomeDamnBody> Basically it's an ocaml implementation of protobuf
<SomeDamnBody> zozozo, ^
<zozozo> ok, then where does the need for recursive module arises ?
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<SomeDamnBody> well basically, piqi supports multiple formats and uses a common data schema specification language
<SomeDamnBody> so there's all of this structured conversion code that allows for transforms between the various formats
<SomeDamnBody> as well as serialization to from ocaml vernacular
<SomeDamnBody> There is a lot of inherent inter-dependency of code
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<SomeDamnBody> I didn't know that modules couldn't be co-recursive or interdependent
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<zozozo> are you sure it couldn't be solved by separating the definition of each format (having a module for each format that only defines it and implement basic operations over it) from the tranformations ?
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<Drup> you can have recursive modules, you just need to annotate all the module with their complete type
<Drup> (and there are a lot of quirks, too)
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<SomeDamnBody> Yeah, that's too long for my route
<SomeDamnBody> I really am incurring a lot of overhead getting tangled up dealing with module problems that really aren't mine
<SomeDamnBody> the problem has gotten way out of hand in that, all I wanted to do was refactor to eliminate some non-tail recursive calls
<SomeDamnBody> I just want to edit to have the right function calls and be done.
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<SomeDamnBody> zozozo, probably I could do that, but I'm not going to. I was able to make progress, get everything to compile and achieve my ends without doing that
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<zozozo> ok, if it works and looks maintainable, everything's good
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<Drup> thomasga: pretty sure I saw it in a mirage (or mirage team) blog post, but I can't find it again
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<thomasga> Drup: blog post on what?
<Drup> automatic deployment
<Drup> It's basically the one I got my original shell script (I modified it a bit after that ...)
<thomasga> the scripts are now a bit different
<Drup> No, this one is much more recent
<thomasga> anyway, I'm going to bed now, fix to the deployment scripts are welcome :-)
<Drup> ah yes, that one !
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