ChanServ changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | Channel Log: https://irclog.whitequark.org/picolisp/ | Check also http://www.picolisp.com for more information
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<aw-> Regenaxer: hi
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<tankf33der> zillipip: check this out
<Regenaxer> zillipip, yes, setcar is just 'set' and setcdr is 'con'
<tankf33der> correct this is con
<Regenaxer> Other Lisps used 'rplaca' and 'rplacd' er similar
<Regenaxer> zillipip: In PicoLisp 'set' is universal for both cells and symbols. Check doc64/structures
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<geo80> Hi everyone! Hi @Regenaxer! Before going home I was playing with psh and what i noticed is psh, watchdog and replica are still using #!bin/picolisp lib.l, unlike vip and the rest its using #!/usr/bin/picolisp /usr/lib/picolisp/lib.l, which is more friendly to my preferred global installation of picolisp. any plans to update the three to be
<geo80> consistent and global installation friendly on the next release? :)
<Regenaxer> Good morning geo80!
<Regenaxer> These are debugging tools, so it is probable they use the local installation (relative path)
<Regenaxer> I think the global Debian installation uses absolute paths
<geo80> Regenaxer Morning! ah I see ok nevermind ;)
<Regenaxer> hmm, no
<geo80> psh is really cool!
<Regenaxer> not true for De!an
<Regenaxer> yes, I use it a lot
<geo80> feels like a hackers tool hahaha
<Regenaxer> In my case all production apps use local installations
<Regenaxer> It is just a remote repl
<Regenaxer> which does not work remotely though ;)
<Regenaxer> works only on localhost
<geo80> oh! I see hahaha its fine, its designed for picolisp only ;)
<Regenaxer> yes
<Regenaxer> and works only via /dev/ttyXX local terminals
<geo80> btw if app is run in debug mode, then there will be a repl already correct? but if not in debug, then psh will be used, correct?
<Regenaxer> So external access is not possible (would be a huge security hole)
<Regenaxer> any way is possible
<geo80> i see, cool! better safe indeed
<Regenaxer> a repl is *always* there
<Regenaxer> In debug mode there are just further tools available
<Regenaxer> and psh switches on debug mode and loads the stuff first
<geo80> ah yeah okay but what i want to ask is if debug mode, after running, the repl prompt can be used right?
<Regenaxer> yes, PicoLisp always drops into a repl after all command line args are processed
<Regenaxer> So if you put -wait at the end it will not get to the repl
<geo80> ah yes hmm i think i misunderstood.. anyway ill just use psh and run the app in production mode
<geo80> and yes, will do -wait indeed
<Regenaxer> right
<geo80> thanks!
<geo80> oh one thing im confused
<Regenaxer> welcome! :)
<geo80> about the .pw file
<geo80> im not sure about that
<Regenaxer> it is for security
<Regenaxer> Only local processes know it
<Regenaxer> It is used in several places, eg. cron jobs
<geo80> ah ok2 i see
<Regenaxer> So that they cannot be triggered by an external connect
<geo80> cool!
<geo80> i see
<geo80> ok got it
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<geo80> oh one thing that i want to ask about how to sell picolisp code or how to sell apps made with picolisp? coz its not a compiled so there is no binary file. sorry to ask this, im just used with binary files and source codes are different prices
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<geo80> i hope i am not violating picolisp principle in asking this question
<Regenaxer> Sorry, interrupted by phone
<Regenaxer> No, selling is OK
<Regenaxer> You think obfuscation by compiling helps?
<Regenaxer> What would you sell? I sell services (Web-Applications), so no source is distributed
<geo80> Regenaxer no problem. ah i see, cool! ah hmm
<Regenaxer> though I give my code to everybody if they like
<geo80> ah ok understood, then i will follow that as well :)
<Regenaxer> You have an idea for an application which could be distributed as a packaged code? How to sell that to whom?
<Regenaxer> I never had this case
<geo80> ah when i was working in china, the clients only pay for the firmwares which is in binary. if they want to get the source code as well, they have to pay another price as well.. its not my idea
<Regenaxer> ok
<Regenaxer> PicoLisp is like binary. Nobody can read
<geo80> hahaha that's a nice '
<geo80> i want to print another shirt for picolisp
<geo80> and it shows
<geo80> picolisp, where lambda is quote
<geo80> is it correct? :)
<Regenaxer> yes, you can do (setq lambda quote) and then (mapcar (lambda (X) ...
<Regenaxer> this is because in pil data and code are fully equivalent
<geo80> hehe thanks! but the more character, the more pricey coz i plan to have it embroidered to have the printing last longer than ink ;)
<geo80> but yeah that's indeed nice to show actual pil code
<geo80> thanks for the idea!
<geo80> or another one: PicoLisp, Breaking Traditions ;)
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> Hi Regenaxer, geo80 :)
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth!
<geo80> Hi beneroth!
<beneroth> How about: picolisp: Already doing the work while your code still optimizes
<Regenaxer> haha :)
<geo80> nice!!
<geo80> then will use ink for that hehehe
<beneroth> or about: "only code, no data". and on backside: "no code, only data" :D
<geo80> nice one!!
<beneroth> the second is closer to the real essence
<geo80> you mean the one at the back?
<beneroth> aye
<geo80> that indeed nice idea!! there is a thrill hehe
<beneroth> well essentially all code is just data, only doing anything when fed to a compatible interpreter
<beneroth> same with DNA
<beneroth> though well in this point of view mechanics is code interpreted by laws of physics, so dunno if the analogy is too broad
<geo80> DNA? Deoxyribonucleic acid?
<mtsd> Hello everyone
<geo80> cool info!!
<geo80> hi mtsd!
<beneroth> hey mtsd
<Regenaxer> Hi mtsd!
<mtsd> New T-shirt designs would be nice. I use my Picolisp T-shirt a lot
<mtsd> I like the symbol, the pattern with the angles in red, green and blue
<geo80> cool!! i made two for me coz i cannot buy from the online link
<geo80> indeed!
<beneroth> mtsd, same!
<mtsd> Maybe print, or have embroidered, the cell diagram?
<beneroth> oh yes!
<mtsd> |car | cdr|
<geo80> i did embroidered it here
<beneroth> similiar to chemistry diagram shirts? :D
<beneroth> I mean molecule diagrams
<geo80> would be nice!
* beneroth has to think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRcpnM26nJM
<mtsd> Hey, what am I thinking... the cell diagram is simple! I can embroider that on clothes myself..
<mtsd> God.. falling straight into thinking -"Where can I find someone to do that for me, so I can buy it" :)
<beneroth> it is less bad when this happens with non-software stuff. not falling into this thinking for software is what got you here.
<mtsd> Pattern on paper, stick paper on clothes with needles. Sew pattern, remove paper. Hey, Picolisp Cell design on item of clothing! :)
<beneroth> don't keep it simple! :D
<beneroth> the economy!
<mtsd> haha, yes. This kind of thinking is highly subversive, in this day and age
<beneroth> (<> riches wealth)
<geo80> cool!!
<geo80> ok time to go home for me, have a great weekend everyone!! (bye)
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<zillipip> ah, (set) can take a cell argument, and it acts like rplaca!
<zillipip> thanks for your help tankf33der and Regenaxer
<zillipip> i'm loving picolisp so far
<beneroth> welcome zillipip :)
<Regenaxer> Glad to hear zillipip :)
<aw-> re: selling picolisp
<aw-> I also sell my picolisp code under a fairly permissive license(for my customers)
<aw-> not obfuscated because that is pointless
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> so far my picolisp code is only hosted. so hosted service with periodic payment
<beneroth> next projects have to be hosted on premise (for technical reasons, interfacing with other internal systems)
<aw-> beneroth: on premises*
<beneroth> thhanks
<aw-> yes I also distribute it for hosting on-prem, source is accessible and modifiable by the licensee if they need
<beneroth> I'm thinking about an SLA containing some sort of "license" fee, but permissive and with a clause that the underlying software becomes FOSS if it is no longer available/supported by my company (or if my company is shut down)
<beneroth> what you think?
<beneroth> I'm interested in your license :)
<aw-> hmmm yes I've heard of such a license, but I don't think it's necessary
<beneroth> I haven't.
<beneroth> ok
<beneroth> I'd like to have advice :)
<aw-> my license is a slightly modified MIT where instead of "without restriction" it's "with limited scope", and then listing the permissions
<aw-> one sec
<aw-> beneroth: the problem with your license is you can't take it away if you change your mind. It also invites companies to destroy your business just so your software can become FOSS haha
<aw-> *intentionally destroy
<aw-> beneroth: personally I think it's better to just use a license like MPL-2.0 and don't worry about this stuff
<aw-> at least with that license, any changes to your actual code must be open sourced, everything else well.. who cares
<aw-> no matter how sneaky you try to be with your licensing, someone will try to defeat it (see MongoDB/Amazon)
<beneroth> true
<aw-> and closed licenses suck in many ways, for everyone
<aw-> (see MongoDB)
<beneroth> what are you thoughts on AGPL ?
<beneroth> Regenaxer sells his stuff practically under AGPL.. well I think he doesn't pack any license to it xD but practically he lives AGPL
<Regenaxer> Oh, really? Never heard of AGPL
<Regenaxer> What I sell for money is all service and dev costs for web applications
<Regenaxer> The code I always regarded free, and give it to the customers if they like (not they can read it in the slightest way ;)
<Regenaxer> I don't give code for a customer to anybody else though
<beneroth> same here, so far
<Regenaxer> cause they paid the development, even if they don't care about the code itself
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> yeah
<beneroth> but yeah.. I trying to build a platform which can be widely configured into business apps.. kinda. so how to be protected against getting amazoned?
<beneroth> never selling the platform as a product, just products based on it, might be an option.
<Regenaxer> Monthly fees won't work?
<beneroth> sure, SLA support. but what about selling the platform to others, giving them control to do whatever they want except reselling it on mass without including me?
<beneroth> just don't and compete on services?
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<beneroth> I'd like to get some of the opportunity costs back, the missed time and finances because I'm focusing years on this instead of doing something with more direct and better compensation.
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<beneroth> maybe I should not bother :)
<Regenaxer> ok, yes, but then they need full source + docs + support anyway
<Regenaxer> yes :)
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<aw-> beneroth: you only get Amazon'd if you don't have a good business model before you START coding your app
<beneroth> T
<aw-> if you write a great app, and then 2 years later say "hey I want to make money from it" then you will get Amazon'd
<aw-> (open source app*)
<aw-> charge money for your software and your time, from the start
<beneroth> you mean: go opensource, but capture the market from the start and you will be fine (except when your biz is shit, so it deserves to die anyway) ?
<aw-> and license it fairly for your customers
<aw-> haha yeah that's one way to put it
<beneroth> yeah doing that now. but I'm also investing all extra time and finances I have into creating this software.
<beneroth> ok
<beneroth> that makes sense :)
<aw-> anyways this licensing stuff can get complex and i guess it very much depends on your needs
<aw-> perhaps talk to a lawyer ;) i'm not a lawyer
<beneroth> I'm aware. I'm not worried about licensing, I'm still pondering one step before that, about business model
<aw-> oh ok
<aw-> "selling the platform to others, giving them control │
<aw-> yes
<aw-> that's exactly what i do
<aw-> and charge a yearly license to use the platform
<beneroth> this
<aw-> yearly license fee
<aw-> just don't allow to resell the platform
<beneroth> yeah, but what is the mechanism/incentive to make/keep them pay? :)
<beneroth> the license? the support?
<aw-> but otherwise they can be free to use/modify it as they want, for their own needs
<beneroth> ok, but not publish (to others) ?
<aw-> yes, not publish
<aw-> to make/keep them, well that depends how valuable your software is ;)
<beneroth> so it's not a FOSS license
<beneroth> aye aye
<aw-> exactly, not FOSS, not FOSS from the start, not for a full software suite that you spent years building and perfecting
<beneroth> ecactly
<beneroth> not working without universal basic income or so
<aw-> well, unless you don't care to make money from it, or did think you *can* make money from it
<aw-> dont* think, typo
<beneroth> so you have taken MIT and removed the "publish, distribute" part?
<beneroth> I want to FOSS all non-essential parts and libraries, but not the core of the platform
<beneroth> or well. I would like to, but I also need to ensure an income :)
<aw-> no no, my license is mostly permissive, like MIT, but instead of of allowing everything ,it only allows specific things
<beneroth> ok. I will write such a license/part into the contract, and get a IT lawyer to review it.
<beneroth> thanks for support :)
<aw-> maybe you can find one in there that suits your needs
<beneroth> I know about spdx. You use a custom license, right? I think I have to do the same, having the same use case.
<aw-> beneroth: this one might suit you, actually: https://fair.io/
<beneroth> oh thanks
<beneroth> I check
<beneroth> the restriction on user count does not make sense for my next project - rather it would make sense to restrict on server/software instances
<beneroth> but I see this fair license might be useful for SaaS-type software
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<aw-> ok i see
<aw-> what about the MariaDB "BSL" ?
<beneroth> nice one
<beneroth> not fitting for this specific project, here I want/need same as you say... allow inspection/modification, disallow redistribution, limit to a number of instances in productive use, yearly fee
<aw-> right right
<beneroth> and now I just stumbled into this issue:
<beneroth> (completely unrelated)
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