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<mtsd> Good morning everyone!
<Regenaxer> Cheers mtsd!
<mtsd> Cheers! :)
<mtsd> I have been doing some thinking..
<mtsd> How about trying to organize some kind of meetup?
<Regenaxer> Not a bad idea ;)
<mtsd> Basically along the lines "Get as many Picolispers to Langweid for a day or two"
<Regenaxer> yeah, a big organizational task
<beneroth> in Augsburg there is a hackerspace, maybe one could rent/borrow their rooms
<mtsd> As simple as possible. Decide a date, everyone books their flights/trains/<preferred mode of transport" and find some where to stay
<Regenaxer> true
<beneroth> I will be on CCC on 27.12 - 30.12 again this year
<Regenaxer> There is also space even here in Langweid, Bavaria Business Center
<beneroth> oh
<mtsd> Langweid would be nice
<Regenaxer> it is a coworking space
<Regenaxer> never been inside though
<mtsd> How are your plans for 2020, Regenaxer? I know you are going to Canada, right?
<beneroth> is not displaying for me
<Regenaxer> right, not decided when
<beneroth> eastern might be a time most people can make time :)
<beneroth> but I'm fine with another time
<beneroth> ah this one looks more like the correct website:
<mtsd> Would be nice just to meet in person. Talk Picolisp face-2-face.
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<beneroth> ah, then Agendis is just a tenant within the center
<Regenaxer> is something different
<beneroth> we could offer them to fix their website for a free weekend :P
<Regenaxer> haha
<beneroth> might be a bad deal for us, though :D
<Regenaxer> T
<Regenaxer> Moment
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<Regenaxer> interupt, bbl
<beneroth> welcome back mtsd
<beneroth> ok
<mtsd> Thanks! :)
<beneroth> I have no fixed plans yet for next year
<mtsd> Me neither
<beneroth> my picolispers-met-irl-count is at 2, if I don't count my employees
<mtsd> Mine is 0 :)
<beneroth> ok, so the event will be called (inc) ?
<mtsd> Well, unless you count making presentations on 2 occasions. At least some exposure
<beneroth> yeah you are an active marketeer
<beneroth> how cute, the page has an visitor counter:
<mtsd> I try my best.. So far I have mostly produced raised eyebrows and puzzled looks ;)
* beneroth gets early millenium internet nostalgia
<beneroth> mtsd, haha, same
<beneroth> well I trained to people into picolisp so far. but the one who doesn't work for me anymore is probably not using it anymore at all.
<beneroth> s/to/two
<mtsd> I keep my covert ops going. Replacing one, old, Django web application at the time
<beneroth> haha, nice!
<mtsd> Some people here have used Pil apps for about 4 years now, without even knowing
<mtsd> No one has complained either :)
<mtsd> I feel the millenium internet nostalgia too. Very nice, looking at pictures from christmas celebrations now
<Regenaxer> ret
<Regenaxer> The first question would be, how many people can be expected?
<beneroth> I would be surprised if we could get more than a handful... maximum a dozen, I think
<beneroth> aw- surely would come if he knows early enough and can plan the long journey, I suspect
<beneroth> Regenaxer, did you meet him?
<beneroth> question is, do we want just a simple meetup without much organization, or a proper picolisp congress, maybe with presentations if people like to present something in detail :)
<Regenaxer> No, never met aw-
<beneroth> I don't think ge0 could come?
<Regenaxer> Yeah, too far for both of them
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> Geo has family
<beneroth> I probably would come together with Morris, so 2
<Regenaxer> But Geo was half a year at NCR Augsburg
<beneroth> ah
<Regenaxer> and he was even born in Germany :)
<Regenaxer> In any case it would be a small meeting
<beneroth> quality over quantity
<beneroth> like pil code
<Regenaxer> :)
<mtsd> I think a small meeting would be best.
<mtsd> We are a small community, and we have not done any meetings before
<mtsd> I'll come.
<mtsd> beneroth, Morris, Regenaxer and myself. 4 so far
<Regenaxer> I'll think about place and accomodation first, then we should announce in the mailing list and see what feedback we get
<beneroth> I'm sure freemint will come if he can
<beneroth> he is probably less flexible than us
<Regenaxer> Circular dependencies, how many, when, where
<beneroth> aye
<beneroth> the name sounds like good food
<mtsd> Asking on the mailing list is probably a good start. Check how many people are interested
<beneroth> Regenaxer should first decide in which time it would fit him
<Regenaxer> I thought of Schlemmerhütte too, it is very nice an new, but a bit expensive
<Regenaxer> about 70 € per night
<Regenaxer> Vidyuth Kini stayed there a few times
* beneroth finds this price acceptable
<Regenaxer> they have only 8 rooms also
<Regenaxer> There are also cheaper ones, Sonnenhof, but a bit primitive
<beneroth> how is the misconfigured rooster in your neighbourhood?
<Regenaxer> ?
<Regenaxer> at night?
<beneroth> 3 or 4 in the morning, if remember correctly
<Regenaxer> Did not hear him a while
<Regenaxer> yeah
<mtsd> Almost like having small children... ;)
<Regenaxer> They still have chickens, but meanwhile the one is eaten perhaps :)
<mtsd> Waking up at impossible hours
<beneroth> Sonnenhof looks good, too
<Regenaxer> Ah, we now also have "Kulturbahnhof"
<Regenaxer> 100 m from here
<Regenaxer> I think that would be best
<mtsd> Sonnenhof looks fine, I think
<Regenaxer> ok
<beneroth> Kulturbahnhof? at the train station close to you?
<Regenaxer> So I will investigate a little
<Regenaxer> yes
<Regenaxer> it is operated by
<Regenaxer> and the owner of Buch7 is Benedikt, the owner of the above chickens
<Regenaxer> It is possible to rent a not too big room in Kulturbahnhof
<Regenaxer> Don't know about the prices
<beneroth> Langweid companies like the 7 somehow...
<mtsd> I can send a message to the mailing list and check the interest
<Regenaxer> haha, true
<Regenaxer> mtsd, great
<beneroth> maybe Kulturbahnhof has a good room for our confrerence
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> Buch7 is an interesting company
<beneroth> a book publisher?
<beneroth> or trader
<beneroth> trader eh?
<Regenaxer> They donate all profits
<Regenaxer> yes
<Regenaxer> but they decided never to grow
<beneroth> oh interesting
<Regenaxer> What remains after salaries is donated
<beneroth> ah ok, so they make a living from it, but the surplus is donated?
<Regenaxer> I bought all recent books there
<Regenaxer> yep
<beneroth> nice concept
<Regenaxer> indeed
<Regenaxer> cause we have "Buchpreisbindung" in Germany books are overpriced
<beneroth> ah btw I have finished reading "Ein König für Deutschland" for a while now. the first half I found a bit slow, so I didn't progress fast... but I loved the second half, read it very quickly
<aw-> CCC in December, sorry I can't make it
<Regenaxer> Yeah, cool book
<Regenaxer> Hi aw-!
<beneroth> ah yes. we don't have this anymore in CH, I think. which means the big stores out-compete the small ones.
<aw-> hi Regenaxer beneroth
<mtsd> Hi aw-
<beneroth> aw-, we're talking about a picolisp meetup in langweid
<aw-> mtsd: ;)
<beneroth> at Regenaxers town
<aw-> when ?
<Regenaxer> Not decided
<beneroth> not yet defined
<aw-> oh ok
<beneroth> when would fit you? :D
<Regenaxer> For aw- we must make it in summer bf course
<Regenaxer> of
<aw-> spring or summer is probably fine, no winter please :P
<Regenaxer> sure :)
<aw-> would love to visit Germany
<mtsd> Regenaxer, I have promised to buy you a beer, several times now. Time to make good on the promise :)
<Regenaxer> ok :)
<aw-> yes I will also buy Regenaxer a beer or more
<Regenaxer> cool, enough beer then
<beneroth> mtsd, you know Regenaxer is measuring calories intake in beers ;-)
<beneroth> pretty clever
<beneroth> I'll buy the Schnitzel menus then
<mtsd> Nice idea :)
<mtsd> holds quite a few lisp books, I see
<Regenaxer> I will first ask Benedikt for the conditions
<Regenaxer> then we decide what to make public
<mtsd> Good. I will write to the mailing list when we know more about the conditions
<Regenaxer> yep
<beneroth> thank you Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer> Not sure yet if it works out
<beneroth> no worries
<Regenaxer> yeah :)
<Regenaxer> Maybe we can also organize a guided tour at BTG, the oldest still-running PicoLisp customer
<mtsd> That would be great!
<Regenaxer> Just 4 km from here, I can get a small bus
<mtsd> Good for BTG to meet the community :)
<Regenaxer> yeah
<beneroth> oh that would be awesome
<aw-> btw has anyone noticed picolisp on github has 114 stars?
<aw-> not bad
<Regenaxer> really? cool!
<beneroth> oh wow
<beneroth> what is the current mailing list count, Regenaxer ?
<Regenaxer> 199 including me and the archiver
<Regenaxer> wait
<Regenaxer> ok, no, 198
<mtsd> Not too bad
<aw-> awesome
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<aw-> Regenaxer: beneroth mtsd i'm looking at end of March
<aw-> during summer it will be Olympics here in Japan, so I'd rather not have any flights out of the country around then, prices will likely be sky high
<Regenaxer> Oh, I see. March is still cold usually though
<aw-> how cold?
<Regenaxer> Well, hard to say. In central Europe the weather is extemely changable
<Regenaxer> Could be below zero, or up to 25 °C
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<aw-> wow, even end of March?
<Regenaxer> yeax
<Regenaxer> h
<Regenaxer> Even May it may be below zero
<Regenaxer> "Eisheilige"
<aw-> :|
<Regenaxer> But May is often near 30
<Regenaxer> Most stable is autumn, September
<Regenaxer> not too hot any more ;)
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<Regenaxer> When are the Olympics?
<aw-> no idea, sometime in summer
<aw-> July or August
<Regenaxer> true, summer is crowded everywhere
<Regenaxer> and expensive
<Regenaxer> Maybe target early autumn then?
<Regenaxer> or after second half of May
<aw-> that will be difficult for me
<Regenaxer> ok
<aw-> anyways as long as it's not -30 i can handle "cold"
<Regenaxer> yeah, but it is nicer for all of us if we can also walk around outside, or sit in the sun
<aw-> true true
<mtsd> Yes, I agree
<aw-> ok well you guys decide a good time and i'll see
<mtsd> Would be nice to walk around and have a look at the village
<Regenaxer> we surely find a point in time
<Regenaxer> Langweid is not very interesting
<mtsd> I like looking around anyway. Interesting to see new places, I think
<Regenaxer> (at least not the nature if you are from Canada, Sweden or Suisse)
<Regenaxer> ok :)
<mtsd> Well, I live in Stockholm, so not that much nature around me, unfortunately :)
<Regenaxer> true
<mtsd> Saw more of it growing up, in a smaller town.
<Regenaxer> Lets see what Geo thinks
<Regenaxer> too bad he doenst show up here often
<Regenaxer> And the one with least difficulties to attend es rob_w - he lives 3 km away :)
<mtsd> Oh, I didn't know that :)
<mtsd> I'll look for ways to get to Augsburg from here.
<Regenaxer> The easiest is by train
<Regenaxer> either from Sweden or Munich airport ;)
<Regenaxer> Station is 100 m from here
<Regenaxer> and *directly* at Kulturbahnhof of course
<Regenaxer> Direct trains from München main station, one hour
<Regenaxer> about 40 by train from München Airport to München main station
<Regenaxer> 40 minutes
<mtsd> Probably fly to München from here, yes
<rob_w> picolisp conference ?? ;-) love it !
<Regenaxer> :)
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<freemint> Regenaxer, can you point me to it?
<Regenaxer> Hi freemint, point to where?
<beneroth> re
<beneroth> hi freemint :)
<beneroth> the pil meetup was just discussed here in IRC, nothing official yet :)
<beneroth> I hope you come to if you can?
<beneroth> nice mail you wrote on ML ;-)
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<freemint> Regenaxer, i asked yesterday about a best practice/guide to setup picolisp with httpGate + Let's Encrypt.
<Regenaxer> yes, I said that this is good (at least I use this setup)
<freemint> Ahh, i am strugging with the how.
<freemint> beneroth, have sen no dates while skimming the discussion
<freemint> I am currently stcuk with, "what do i need to put in names and which of the thousands of Let's encrypt bots is compatible"
<freemint> Before i ran everything through a NGINX which handled let's encyrpt but now i to go with only httpgate
<Regenaxer> You checked doc/httpGate.html ?
<freemint> Yes
<Regenaxer> For Let's Encrypt I did apt install certbot
<freemint> Ok
<Regenaxer> Then $ certbot certonly --standalone -d <domain>
<Regenaxer> and in a weekly crontjob certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer> I passed comma-seprated domains to certbot -d ..
<Regenaxer> to be precise ;)
<freemint> in my understanding let's encrypt needs to controll over some content that te server delivers for verification
<Regenaxer> It vertifies to Let's Encrypt via port 80 initially
<freemint> maybe i need to brush up on my let's encrypt. Does your names file contain ay changes to support let's encrypt
<Regenaxer> No, the httpGate names deal only with starting local applications
<freemint> Or does the certbot place files in you server root folders
<Regenaxer> Yes, it places certificates for these domains
<Regenaxer> Files like /etc/letsencrypt/live/
<Regenaxer> On some servers I copy them locally in cron, on some I have a symbolic link
<Regenaxer> Then something like bin/httpGate 443 xxx/names pem/xxx.key,pem/xxx.crt
<freemint> I get that part.
<Regenaxer> yeah, it is also on httpGate.html
<Regenaxer> The certs expire after 6 weeks or so, that's why the cronjob is needed to renew
<freemint> I roughly recall it requiring to "place files in a server's webroot folder for authentication" but it seems there is another way from what you say
<Regenaxer> Yeah, certbot takes care of that
<Regenaxer> It negotiates everything over port 80
<Regenaxer> i.e. it establishes a temporary on 80 and waits for a back-connect
<beneroth> freemint, as I understand Regenaxer, httpGate runs only on port 443 (HTTPS), and certbot runs on port 80 (HTTP)
<freemint> How does certbot do that? Does certbot write in to your webroot temporatily
<Regenaxer> (at least that's how I understand it)
<beneroth> certbot is the webserver in this setup
<Regenaxer> No
<beneroth> no?
<Regenaxer> What is webroot?
<Regenaxer> beneroth, right
<Regenaxer> It listens on 80 just for setup
<beneroth> the root folder of files served from the webserver, in "traditional" webservers
<Regenaxer> If the remote let's encry. succeeds, it knows that "you are in control of that server"
<freemint> the root folder of your webserver, as in the place you pass httpgate to start pcilisp in
<beneroth> usually the hole folder is served, classic blacklisting fallacy (you should not base security on blacklisting, only on whitelisting)
<Regenaxer> PicoLisp uses no root folder
<beneroth> freemint, does not exist :D
<beneroth> httpGate is just proxy
<Regenaxer> So certbot writes in the above /etc/...
<beneroth> also httpGate does only run 443 in this setup, so port 80 is free to be used by certbot
<beneroth> Regenaxer, freemint asks about the validation file, not the certificate
<beneroth> the server control proof file served via HTTP
<Regenaxer> The cronjob kills httpGate, renews the cert, then starts httpGate again
<beneroth> ah
<freemint> ahh
<beneroth> ok, so httpGate runs on both 80 and 443?
<Regenaxer> Yes, here it does
<Regenaxer> Not needed
<beneroth> and ideally the certbot runs on 443 after first validation?
<Regenaxer> After that it does not run
<Regenaxer> certbot runs only to create and renew
<beneroth> I mean: on the crontabbed rte-validation
<beneroth> yeah
<Regenaxer> once a week
<beneroth> my question: LE validation is done via HTTP or HTTPS (both are possible, afaik) ?
<freemint> Regenaxer, ok, my understand was that httpGate kept running and then httpGate would need to hand of som things to certbot and i was not sure if that could be expressed with the names file
<Regenaxer> beneroth, I don't remember well. For some reason it wants 80
<freemint> That's where my question came from
<Regenaxer> perhapsh 443 too
<Regenaxer> freemint: "httpGate kept running"
<Regenaxer> I stop httpGate only in this cronjob
<freemint> Yes
<Regenaxer> 01 4 * * 7 /home/app/7fach/certbot
<Regenaxer> a 'root' cronjob
<Regenaxer> So in my understanding certbot runs only once a week
<Regenaxer> for renewal
<Regenaxer> It just calls certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer> certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer> cd /home/app
<Regenaxer> bin/httpGate 80 7fach/names "" 4040
<Regenaxer> bin/httpGate 443 7fach/names pem/7fach.key,pem/7fach.crt 4040
<Regenaxer> OK, that's all :)
<Regenaxer> oops
<Regenaxer> slashes at start of line
<Regenaxer> Again:
<Regenaxer> In /home/app/7fach/certbot
<Regenaxer> /usr/bin/pkill -P1 httpGate
<Regenaxer> certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer> /home/app/7fach/httpGate
<Regenaxer> and /home/app/7fach/httpGate does:
<Regenaxer> cd /home/app
<Regenaxer> bin/httpGate 80 7fach/names "" 4040
<Regenaxer> bin/httpGate 443 7fach/names pem/7fach.key,pem/7fach.crt 4040
<Regenaxer> pem/7fach.key etc. are symbolic links to /etc/letsencr..
<freemint> I get it
<freemint> Here is where i went wrong: Certbot verifes your domain by demonstrating that you have control over the content of a certain folder url.tld/some_folder_i_can't_remeber/. i wanted to know how to wire httpGate to hand off the request to that folder to certbot (this is how you do it in nginx) to a certbot running on another port internally.
<Regenaxer> yep, that sounds like what it does
<freemint> This is not neccessary whe you shut down the webserver for a moment.
<beneroth> T
<Regenaxer> I kill only top level httpGate
<beneroth> okay, so you initial question was meant to be: how to configure httpGate to proxy to another webserver?
<Regenaxer> running connections persist
<Regenaxer> only new connects are blocked for a moment
<beneroth> ah, you have a global httpGate instance per server, and then one per application?
<Regenaxer> no, only one on 80 and one on 443
<beneroth> so freemint proxy configuration should be the same as how the local httpGates are configured in the top one, I guess
<Regenaxer> but httpGate forks
<beneroth> are the forks detached?
<Regenaxer> they are independent
<Regenaxer> don't need the parent as pil apps do
<freemint> beneroth, yes that was roughly my question
<Regenaxer> for each connection two children are forked
<Regenaxer> for both directions
<Regenaxer> You can safely kill the top level processes
<Regenaxer> the ones listening on 80 and 443
* beneroth just found a way to reliably crash Visual Studio while debugging a C# web application...
<Regenaxer> oh :)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, interesting :)
<beneroth> new year goal: no more C# web applications ;-)
<beneroth> cost of lifetime is too high
<Regenaxer> Good!
<Regenaxer> So /usr/bin/pkill -P1 httpGate kills only the parent process(es)
<Regenaxer> i.e. children of 1 which is the init process
<beneroth> nice one
<beneroth> afk
<Regenaxer> cu
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<beneroth> ret
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